Restitution and the "Gold train"

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4thskorpion
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Restitution and the "Gold train"

#1

Post by 4thskorpion » 28 Aug 2015, 17:53

[Split from "Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'"]
wm wrote:
Annelie wrote:If it were by any chance true and there is gold aboard "the" train
just who would have ownership? Surely not the Poles?
The international law says it's Polish property, so called abandon former German property.
I guess it might depend on whose teeth the gold came out of?

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Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'

#2

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 29 Aug 2015, 20:05

Annelie wrote:Not their gold in 1945
How do you know whose gold it was before it was even found?

It could be gold stolen by the Germans from any European country that they occupied.

Be it Poland, or western parts of the Soviet Union, or whatever.

So far we don't know if it is gold. These can be works of art (which should be much easier to assign to proper owners than gold):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFND650WK_I


4thskorpion wrote:I guess it might depend on whose teeth the gold came out of?
If it came out of teeth of Polish citizens, then it belongs to Poland - and not to Israel (which didn't even exist), nor to the USA. And if some individuals, descendants of Polish citizens, have claims to it - then this is a matter to be solved between them and Poland.

Competing claims for 'Nazi gold train':
The World Jewish Congress and a Russian lawyer are among the latest voices to have raised questions about restitution of property from a supposed Nazi German train that may have been located underground near Wałbrzych, south west Poland.

“To the extent that any items now being discovered in Poland may have been stolen from Jews before they were sent to death ... it is essential that every measure is taken to return the property to its rightful owners or to their heirs,” outlined Robert Singer, head of the World Jewish Congress, in a statement made in New York.

“We very much hope that the Polish authorities will take the appropriate action in that respect,” he added.

Meanwhile, Russian lawyer Mikhail Joffe was quoted by Russian media outlets as stressing that “if the property has been taken from territory, including USSR, then the cargo, in accordance with international law, must be passed to the Russian side.”

(...)

However, deputy minister Żuchowski has stressed that according to Polish laws, the find belongs to the Polish state.
- See more at: http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/21896 ... 89yZM.dpuf
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.


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Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'

#3

Post by 4thskorpion » 29 Aug 2015, 23:22

Peter K wrote:
4thskorpion wrote:I guess it might depend on whose teeth the gold came out of?
If it came out of teeth of Polish citizens, then it belongs to Poland - and not to Israel (which didn't even exist), nor to the USA. And if some individuals, descendants of Polish citizens, have claims to it - then this is a matter to be solved between them and Poland.
:lol: you will know that:

Poland suspends World War II property restitution for Jews
Jewish organizations and the U.S. administration have both objected to Poland`s decision to freeze work on the restitution of Jewish property confiscated by the Nazis during World War II and under communism. The decision comes only 3 years after PM Donald Tusk announced that a piece of legislation would be drafted to offer compensation 20% of the property value for the Jewish families of former property owners.

"Most Central and Eastern European countries have adopted some type of law to provide for the restitution of or compensation for confiscated property. Poland stands out for its failure to do so," explained Ronald S. Lauder, chairman of the World Jewish Restitution Organization.

http://www.dw.com/en/warsaw-suspends-re ... a-14922252

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Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'

#4

Post by wm » 30 Aug 2015, 00:22

4thskorpion wrote:Jewish organizations and the U.S. administration have both objected to Poland`s decision to freeze work on the restitution of Jewish property confiscated by the Nazis during World War II and under communism.
They object but the lonely, single example in your disingenuous link describes a man who had his property confiscated by the Communists. He is one of the thousands of Poles who had their property stolen in the vain attempt to build a socialist state.

Poland as any sane country recognizes the rights of the owner and his/her heirs to their private property. And, as any sane country assumes that abandon, unclaimed property belongs to the state.

So it follows that the heir of any unclaimed property of the Poles of Jewish origin is the Polish state, not the World Jewish Restitution Organization.

Similarly, Jewish owners of property confiscated by the communists (because they were capitalist pigs) shouldn't be given the most-favored treatment, at the expense of the non-Jewish capitalist pigs simply because the two most fortunate countries in the world conspired to force that privilege from one of the least fortunate.

Some people claimed that the Poles of Jewish were aliens, with incompatible/different economic and political goals - that they weren't true Poles.
Now the U.S. administration says the same thing and demands a different set of rules for them, because they were different and weren't true Poles.

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Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'

#5

Post by 4thskorpion » 30 Aug 2015, 08:12

wm wrote:
4thskorpion wrote:Jewish organizations and the U.S. administration have both objected to Poland`s decision to freeze work on the restitution of Jewish property confiscated by the Nazis during World War II and under communism.
They object but the lonely, single example in your disingenuous link describes a man who had his property confiscated by the Communists. He is one of the thousands of Poles who had their property stolen in the vain attempt to build a socialist state.

Poland as any sane country recognizes the rights of the owner and his/her heirs to their private property. And, as any sane country assumes that abandon, unclaimed property belongs to the state.

So it follows that the heir of any unclaimed property of the Poles of Jewish origin is the Polish state, not the World Jewish Restitution Organization.

Similarly, Jewish owners of property confiscated by the communists (because they were capitalist pigs) shouldn't be given the most-favored treatment, at the expense of the non-Jewish capitalist pigs simply because the two most fortunate countries in the world conspired to force that privilege from one of the least fortunate.

Some people claimed that the Poles of Jewish were aliens, with incompatible/different economic and political goals - that they weren't true Poles.
Now the U.S. administration says the same thing and demands a different set of rules for them, because they were different and weren't true Poles.
The single case mentioned briefly in the article is the only one being taken to the Court of Human Rights as a test case to set a legal precedent for the tens of thousands of other potential claimants.

However despite your protestations the unavoidable fact is Poland is the only country that has suspended Holocaust victim claims, the only one! Further Poland is the only country (of those that Holocaust crimes were perpetrated within) that does not have property restitution enshrined in law, the only one!

Only 18% of the claims for Polish property restitution or compensation are from Jewish claimants but as usual the "Jews" are almost the entire focus of nationalist ire in Poland.

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Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'

#6

Post by wm » 30 Aug 2015, 09:32

The others having much smaller former Jewish population have much less to lose.
Especially they know perfectly, that after we strip all the smooth talk from politics, only a single rule remains: might makes right. It was like that before the WW2 and is like that now.

Now, let's see how those lobbyists will fare in wrenching a similar agreement from Russia, which confiscated much more private property (including Jewish) than the Polish communists could have ever dreamed off.

It is commendable when people, like that man, use the law to resolve conflicts.
The rule of law is better that the rule of the privileged few, pressure groups, and lobbyists.

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Re: Nazi gold train 'found in Poland'

#7

Post by 4thskorpion » 30 Aug 2015, 11:00

wm wrote:The others having much smaller former Jewish population have much less to lose.
The argument doesn't stack up because by that token if Poland has much more to lose than the others then consequently it has gained much more due to its larger Jewish population. But be that as it may, Tusk made a commitment three years ago to award a maximum 20% (not 100%) compensation payment to successful claimants which the Polish government has now broken.

So if any former Jewish assets were to be found on this alleged treasure train Poland would be unlikely to compensate anyone, proof or no proof, unless international pressure persuaded them otherwise.

It would be so interesting to see Poland's reaction to Putin, and vice versa, if the "Amber Room" was found on this train (insert Machiavellian smile emoji).

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Re: Restitution and the "Gold train"

#8

Post by wm » 30 Aug 2015, 12:23

Poland isn't some kind of independent entity from the people living there. Those people individually, and as a group have gained or lost something in the last hundred years.
By saying that those people have gained but the Polish Jews lost, you simply admits that the Polish Jews are not a part of this community.
When in fact those who were Polish citizens then are Polish citizens today too - if they wish.

And Poland in fact gained almost nothing. That wealth, as the wealth gained by annexing the former parts of Germany has been squandered by the inept communist regime.
As we know, one of the main enablers of that destructive and foreign to Polish culture and way of life regime, was the superpower that demands a special treatment today.

Additionally those properties are such a mess, with so much liabilities that their market value is usually zero - they are worth nothing. That 20% is pure loss for those who live in Poland now, and don't want to abandon their own country simply because the life somewhere else is easier and better.

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Re: Restitution and the "Gold train"

#9

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 30 Aug 2015, 12:33

4thskorpion,

I'm in favour of giving property or compensation back to individual private heirs wherever it is possible, but the priority should be given to restoring property to current citizens of Poland, not to people living overseas. For example, my great uncle was a merchant in Gdynia between 1928 and 1939, he owned 4 parcels in the city centre (near Batory, Wladyslaw IV and 10th February streets). He was murdered by the Germans in Piaśnica Wielka in November 1939. Litigation is in progress for many years now, and we still haven't gotten anything back.

One of these four parcels which belonged to my great uncle, is now occupied by "Deutsche Bank". Quite ironic.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Restitution and the "Gold train"

#10

Post by 4thskorpion » 30 Aug 2015, 12:52

wm wrote:Poland isn't some kind of independent entity from the people living there. Those people individually, and as a group have gained or lost something in the last hundred years.
By saying that those people have gained but the Polish Jews lost, you simply admits that the Polish Jews are not a part of this community.
When in fact those who were Polish citizens then are Polish citizens today too - if they wish.

And Poland in fact gained almost nothing. That wealth, as the wealth gained by annexing the former parts of Germany has been squandered by the inept communist regime.
As we know, one of the main enablers of that destructive and foreign to Polish culture and way of life regime, was the superpower that demands a special treatment today.

Additionally those properties are such a mess, with so much liabilities that their market value is usually zero - they are worth nothing. That 20% is pure loss for those who live in Poland now, and don't want to abandon their own country simply because the life somewhere else is easier and better.
wm, you tried to justify Poland's decision to break its restitution agreement made by Tusk by saying the other countries had less Jews so had less to lose. Then since Poland had more Jews and therefore has more to lose in paying compensation then it must also have gained more from Holocaust era Jewish assets otherwise your argument is nonsense.

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Re: Restitution and the "Gold train"

#11

Post by 4thskorpion » 30 Aug 2015, 12:58

Peter K wrote:4thskorpion,

I'm in favour of giving property or compensation back to individual private heirs wherever it is possible, but the priority should be given to restoring property to current citizens of Poland, not to people living overseas. For example, my great uncle was a merchant in Gdynia between 1928 and 1939, he owned 4 parcels in the city centre (near Batory, Wladyslaw IV and 10th February streets). He was murdered by the Germans in Piaśnica Wielka in November 1939. Litigation is in progress for many years now, and we still haven't gotten anything back.

One of these four parcels which belonged to my great uncle, is now occupied by "Deutsche Bank". Quite ironic.
My family owned properties in Warsaw which were destroyed in WWII and now are in the commercial heart of the city. Such is life however I have never been interested in perusing any claim I have my freedom and that is enough.

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Re: Restitution and the "Gold train"

#12

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 30 Aug 2015, 13:11

We have a very big family and Nikodem (the one murdered in Piasnica) has many heirs. AFAIK this is one of problems now - finding all living heirs, as not all of them currently live in Poland, some live in America and Australia. My dad's distant cousin is the one most involved in this litigation, I'm not familiar with all the details.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Restitution and the "Gold train"

#13

Post by wm » 30 Aug 2015, 14:49

4thskorpion wrote:wm, you tried to justify Poland's decision to break its restitution agreement made by Tusk by saying the other countries had less Jews so had less to lose. Then since Poland had more Jews and therefore has more to lose in paying compensation then it must also have gained more from Holocaust era Jewish assets otherwise your argument is nonsense.
And as I said the Jewish assets belong to their respective owners and their heirs, not to some nebulous Jewish organizations supported by the US, like here:
According to information obtained by Forbes, Poland's Jewish communities have already recovered about 500 real properties.
A substantial part of the unique real-estate (synagogues, slaughterhouses, mikvahs and cemeteries ) had already gone under the hammer, sometimes well below the market price, and the money instead of being spent on maintaining Poland's Jewish heritage, ended up in the cogs of a sophisticated distribution mechanism.
The money was distributed in an airtight network composed of the Union of Jewish Communities in Poland and the Foundation for the Preservation of Jewish Heritage. Both organisations operate on the basis of an unwritten agreement, sanctioning the "partition" of Jewish communal property nationalised in Poland after World War II. Half of the plan has already been carried out.
When the Polish state began giving back our synagogues and cemeteries to Jewish organizations, I hoped that the organisations will take care of them, and not sell them. I was wrong, says Jakub Szadaj, the founder and chairman of the Independent Jewish Community, which is not subject ZGWZ.
Although Judaism says cemeteries are inviolable for all time, land plots separated from Jewish cementaries have been auctioned off in, for example, the cities of Torun, Gliwice or Lublin.
the well-preserved synagogue in Lubraniec [was sold] (price 500,000 zlotys), the neoclassical hospital in Siedlce [was sold] (price 610,000 zlotys) or the Beth midrash in Sokolow Podlaski, which was renovated before it was sold (price 100,000 zlotys).
[those prices are more or less equal to the price of a tiny (100,000), and a large flat (the rest) in a major city]
The leaders of Poland's Jewish communities are not ashamed of this. Michael Schudrich, the chief rabbi of Poland, is also not ashamed. By virtue of his position, he has to agree to sale of sacral buildings.
Three hundred thousand zlotys of recovered money was, for example, sent to the Foundation for the Protection Lublin Jewish Cemeteries. The funds were to be used to maintain Lublin's Jewish cemeteries. The subsidy has vanished and the cementaries remained neglected.
former Jewish property was returned and sold in unclear circumstances, and the profits were siphoned off to private individuals without any supervision or financial responsibility
Filmmaker Menachem Daum , who arrived there to make documentation, received an offer from a member of the board of the Jewish community in Katowice to purchase the historic builiding for an attractive price. The condition was that he would pay the Jewish activist a $10,000 commission.
The whole restitution business would probably not succeed, if it was not confined to a hermetic environment. The Union of Jewish Communities combines six communities with a total of only 1,200 Jewish members. Meanwhile, according to the Moses Schorr Centre (an educational institution founded by the Ronald S. Lauder Foundation) approximately 100,000 Jews live in Poland.
Still, the most surprising fact is that there are scarcely any true Jews in this hermetic environment of the heads of Jewish organizations. Most of them are converts, or people who converted to Judaism. The most fervent ones even changed their names to Orthodox-sounding ones.
When the process of the restitution of Jewish property was started in 1997, random people created groups and called them Jewish communities just to be able to lay claims to Jewish property.

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Re: Restitution and the "Gold train"

#14

Post by wm » 30 Aug 2015, 16:40

The price of foreign governments/pressure groups interventions in the normal course of events is corruptions:

Who are the leaders of the Jews in Poland
Michael Schudrich, part-time Chief Rabbi for a country as large and as important as Poland?!? A Rabbi who does not study or teach, who does not insist on decency, who does not comfort the bereft, does not counsel the lost, does not encourage the hesitant or the shy. He has chosen instead to be the marketing and public relations person for the community. The individual to go to for information and approval of political, economic, business and, occasionally, religious matters. He sees it all, hears it all, knows it all and allows it all. The perfect Rabbi to foster corruption.
Piotr Kadlcik, President of the Jewish Community of Warsaw. A man who a few years ago was not able to earn a living, converted to Judaism and thanks to the generosity of his new God and the talent to make less from more has done extremely well for himself. He likes a drink or many and can often be seen on the street trying to find his bearings.
Tadeusz Jakubowicz, President of the Jewish Community of Krakow. His father, and then his uncle, made a miserable living during the communist time watching over the Jewish community in Krakow. One of them, I never knew which, told me during my visits to the Synagogue in Krakow in 1972 and then again in 1980, that there were maybe sixty Jews in Krakow who were all dying or leaving. He also offered to exchange my dollars at the black market rate; I readily gave him my business. He looked so poor, like a “Synagogue mouse,” that of course I left, both times, a meaningful tzedakah (donation). Their heir, Tadeusz Jakubowicz, has become one of the richest men in Krakow, while the Jewish community over which he presides does not seem very prosperous.
I accuse! – the title of Emile Zola’s letter to the French president, where he mercilessly criticized the situation in his country. Today Seweryn Aszkenazy, a Polish Jew saved miraculously from the Holocaust publishes in our columns his “I accuse”.
Several years ago he returned to Poland and was shocked at what he saw.
In his opinion, and also proven by our journalistic investigation, properties that belonged to the pre-war Jewish communities, worth hundreds of millions of Polish zlotys, were controlled by a few clever people who benefited from it. Aszkenazy decided to do something about it and spends the Autumn of his life towards fulfilling this task. Where are the Jewish hospitals, schools, charity institutions that could serve both, Jews and Poles – these are the questions that the hero of our cover asks stubbornly.

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Re: Restitution and the "Gold train"

#15

Post by 4thskorpion » 30 Aug 2015, 17:29

wm, Here is the follow-up to the Forbes stories that you seem to have missed...or maybe not.
WARSAW (EJP)---The monthly Polish edition of Forbes magazine apologized for three articles accusing Jewish community leaders of corruption practices in the restitution and management of Jewish property in Poland. The apology to the Society of Jews in Poland for the articles was published Monday on the magazine’s website.

The original articles, published in September, were titled “Who are our leaders?”, “Jewish accusation,” and “Kaddish for a million bucks.” In the article “Who are our leaders?”, the President of the Society for Jewish Culture Beit Warszawa, Seweryn Aszkenazy, criticized the lack of Jewish leadership during the Holocaust and exposed by name the current heads of the Jewish community in Poland. “What binds these people together is money, lots of money. None of it, of course, for the struggling average Polish Jew who may need to visit a dentist or buy winter clothes”, he wrote. Aszkenazy described Piotr Kadlcik, the President of Poland’s Union of Jewish Communities, as one who “likes a drink or many and can often be seen on the street trying to find his bearings.” Moreover, he called Poland’s chief rabbi, Michael Schudrich, “the perfect rabbi to foster corruption.”

In his article “Jewish accusation”, the Deputy Editor in Chief of Forbes Polska, Eryk Stankunowicz said that “journalistic investigations have proved that properties belonging to the pre-war Jewish communities, worth hundreds of millions of Polish zlotys, were controlled by a few clever people who benefited from it”. In “Kaddish for a million bucks”, Forbes journalists Wojciech Surmacz and Nissan Tzur wrote that Polish Jewish organizations did not use the money gained from restitutions of pre-war Jewish property for maintaining Poland’s Jewish heritage, but that it “ended up in the cogs of a sophisticated distribution mechanism”. In view of a threatened lawsuit by the Jewish community, Forbes Polska issued a declaration apologizing “for the publication of information suggesting the following activities: that the individuals named in the articles reaped personal benefit from the activities of Jewish organizations in Poland; that the restituted Jewish cemeteries in Torun, Gliwice and Lublin were sold contrary to the principles of Jewish tradition; and that there was no settling of accounts of the funds allocated for preservation of Jewish heritage.”

The magazine also made corrections to the article “Kaddish for a million bucks” saying that “it is not true that real estate representing part of the assets recovered by the Association of Jewish Communities in the Republic of Poland or the Jewish Community of Warsaw was sold below market value”. It also stated, ‘’Jewish Communities do not liquidate any parts of restituted Jewish property which according to Jewish law or custom require special care or protection.”

Leaders of Poland’s Jewish community, who disputed the allegations of mismanagement of property from prewar Jewish communities, praised Forbes Polska for its retraction. World Jewish Congress President Ronald Lauder, who also heads the World Jewish Restitution Organization (WJRO) which was also tasked by the publication, said he was happy that the magazine apologized for what he called “its unwarranted personal attacks and the jumbling of facts.” “Forbes has done the right thing and I consider that matter now closed,” Lauder stated.
:roll:

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