Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

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4thskorpion
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Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#1

Post by 4thskorpion » 02 Nov 2015, 17:45

Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

The museum at the Sobibór Nazi death camp in south-east Poland, where up to 300,000 Jews were executed, found the sites have been disturbed by suspected gold hunters within the last two years.
Is nothing sacred. Sick people still driven the myth of "Jewish gold" to be found in Polish-Jewish graves.

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#2

Post by UMachine » 02 Nov 2015, 20:38

Doesn't leave too much doubt about the attitudes of some people.


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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#3

Post by Orlov » 04 Nov 2015, 00:28

There is terrible - but people didn't understanding human (or peasent) behaviour after the war. Five years under German occupation changed Poles. But 50 yrs. communism transform people to worse creatures.
But on the below photo - you didn't see plundering BUT exhumation - look at the soldier (or militiamen) - they did not directed weapons against peasants - just stand by and pose for photographs. Author Gross does not analyzed objectively this photo - for him there were Polish Plundering Monsters. Thats typical behavior for peasent - as they have the opportunity to earn it - use it.
Of course I don't approve of it - but everyone had to ask yourself questions before judging.
For me, the most terrible was information about "trupia maź" (cadaverous goo).
Bestreg Orlov
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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#4

Post by BenjaminJ » 05 Nov 2015, 06:41

The poles did plunder, did grave rob, did kill jews, did inform on jews. Any idea to the contrary is ridiculous.

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#5

Post by history1 » 05 Nov 2015, 07:33

BenjaminJ wrote:The poles did plunder, did grave rob, did kill jews, did inform on jews. Any idea to the contrary is ridiculous.
Generalisations are simply wrong.

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#6

Post by michael mills » 05 Nov 2015, 08:10

There was certainly a "gold rush" at the sites of the extermination camps immediately after they were captured by the advancing Red Army, there is plenty of contemporary evidence for that fact, eg reports by Red Army personnel who observed the Polish peasants digging at the sites.

However, I think it rather unlikely that anybody is still digging for gold at the site of the former Sobibor extermination camp. Any signs of excavation found there most probably date back to the immediate post-war period.

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#7

Post by 4thskorpion » 06 Nov 2015, 11:27

michael mills wrote: However, I think it rather unlikely that anybody is still digging for gold at the site of the former Sobibor extermination camp. Any signs of excavation found there most probably date back to the immediate post-war period.
If only that were true, there was extensive looting of grave sites immediately post-evacuation of the sites by the Germans and early post-war but it still continues today.

Excavating Nazi Extermination Centres
Isaac Gilead (1), Yoram Haimi (1) and Wojciech Mazurek (2)
(1) Archaeological Division, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Beer Sheva, Israel
(2) SUB TERRA, Archaeological Examinations, Chełm, Poland

After levelling and cleaning the area of the extermination centre (Bełżec), the Germans planted the area with small pines and left. At that moment, the whole area was plucked to pieces by the neighbouring population, who were searching for gold and valuables. That’s why the whole surface of the camp was covered with human bones, hair, ashes from cremated corpses, dentures, pots and other objects.

The looting of the area of the extermination centres was very intensive then, and still continues today; the last large case of grave robbing in Treblinka was reported in 2002 (Głuchowski and Kowalski, 2008). In October 2008, while in Sobibór, we noticed that people, probably equipped with a metal detector, had clandestinely dug a couple of days before we arrived in the forest, south of the ash mound memorial.
Moreover, if archaeologists do not recover, protect and exhibit the artefacts they will be looted by robbers, be sold and disappear in private collections. Ongoing pillage of the extermination centres is a well known phenomenon in Poland.
There is regular evidence to be found in the archaeological and conservation surveys produced by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum that the camp environs are still victim of the looters and treasure hunters.

Not just extermination centers but also former PoW camp sites such as Łambinowice (Stalag VIII-B Lamsdorf) are regular targets for "treasure hunters" who sell their plunder on websites such as eBay etc to satisfy the large collector market.

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#8

Post by 4thskorpion » 06 Nov 2015, 16:43

michael mills wrote: However, I think it rather unlikely that anybody is still digging for gold at the site of the former Sobibor extermination camp. Any signs of excavation found there most probably date back to the immediate post-war period.
If only that were true, there was extensive looting of grave sites immediately post-evacuation of the sites by the Germans and early post-war but it still continues today.

Excavating Nazi Extermination Centres
Isaac Gilead (1), Yoram Haimi (1) and Wojciech Mazurek (2)
(1) Archaeological Division, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Beer Sheva, Israel
(2) SUB TERRA, Archaeological Examinations, Chełm, Poland

After levelling and cleaning the area of the extermination centre (Bełżec), the Germans planted the area with small pines and left. At that moment, the whole area was plucked to pieces by the neighbouring population, who were searching for gold and valuables. That’s why the whole surface of the camp was covered with human bones, hair, ashes from cremated corpses, dentures, pots and other objects.

The looting of the area of the extermination centres was very intensive then, and still continues today; the last large case of grave robbing in Treblinka was reported in 2002 (Głuchowski and Kowalski, 2008). In October 2008, while in Sobibór, we noticed that people, probably equipped with a metal detector, had clandestinely dug a couple of days before we arrived in the forest, south of the ash mound memorial.
Moreover, if archaeologists do not recover, protect and exhibit the artefacts they will be looted by robbers, be sold and disappear in private collections. Ongoing pillage of the extermination centres is a well known phenomenon in Poland.
There is regular evidence to be found in the archaeological and conservation surveys produced by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum that the camp environs are still victim of the looters and treasure hunters.

Not just extermination centres but also former PoW camp sites such as Łambinowice (Stalag VIII-B Lamsdorf) are regular targets for "treasure hunters" who sell their plunder on websites such as eBay etc to satisfy the large collector market.

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#9

Post by uberjude » 06 Nov 2015, 16:51

BenjaminJ, you wrote:

"The poles did plunder, did grave rob, did kill jews, did inform on jews. Any idea to the contrary is ridiculous."

I would suggest removing the definite article from the beginning. "The Poles" did not plunder or kill Jews, any more than "The Poles" hid and rescued Jews. "Poles" certainly did both, and I don't know that either set of behaviors was necessarily more representative of "The Poles" than the other.

As for post-war behavior regarding mass graves, I would tend to be a bit lenient. You had a bunch of peasants who had just gone through 6 years of privation and terror; digging through graves in the hope of finding some gold may be a bit unseemly to us, but if I had a family to feed, I don't know that I'd prefer watching my kids go hungry to appearing unseemly.

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#10

Post by little grey rabbit » 08 Nov 2015, 07:57

Is nothing sacred. Sick people still driven the myth of "Jewish gold" to be found in Polish-Jewish graves.
If they were really looking for gold these days people would be using metal detectors - which are extremely cheap. And I assume archaeologists have already extensively scanned the site anyway.

More likely people were just curious if the place really was full of ashes.

Also the holes were dug near the shower block/alleged gas chamber. I think there was an Israeli archaeologist who was digging there a few years ago. They may have just got their wires crossed.

This is the Daily Mail - they'll print any drivel.
That’s why the whole surface of the camp was covered with human bones, hair, ashes from cremated corpses, dentures, pots and other objects.
What a shame such things prove so refractory to cameras and when you visit the sites in person, you never see anything remotely reassembling such exciting descriptions.

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#11

Post by 4thskorpion » 08 Nov 2015, 10:38

little grey rabbit wrote:This is the Daily Mail - they'll print any drivel.
FYI:
Excavating Nazi Extermination Centres
Isaac Gilead (1), Yoram Haimi (1) and Wojciech Mazurek (2)
(1) Archaeological Division, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Beer Sheva, Israel
(2) SUB TERRA, Archaeological Examinations, Chełm, Poland
Ongoing pillage of the extermination centres is a well known phenomenon in Poland.

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#12

Post by little grey rabbit » 08 Nov 2015, 11:00

There's nothing to pillage.

If archaeologists find anything they stick in a museum, all they have find is a handful of old bottles, plates and cutlery. Stuff like that.

It's magical thinking to claim modern day pillages are finding great treasure troves that archaeologists miss.

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#13

Post by 4thskorpion » 08 Nov 2015, 15:47

little grey rabbit wrote:There's nothing to pillage.

If archaeologists find anything they stick in a museum, all they have find is a handful of old bottles, plates and cutlery. Stuff like that.

It's magical thinking to claim modern day pillages are finding great treasure troves that archaeologists miss.
From the same archaeologists report:
The looting of the area of the extermination centres was very intensive then, and still continues today; the last large case of grave robbing in Treblinka was reported in 2002 (Głuchowski and Kowalski, 2008). In October 2008, while in Sobibór, we noticed that people, probably equipped with a metal detector, had clandestinely dug a couple of days before we arrived in the forest, south of the ash mound memorial.
No magical thinking required. The point is not that there are no "great treasure troves" to be found but these sites are targetted because there is a strong belief that all Jews had gold and therefore any Jewish gold and jewellery that might have be missed by the Germans might still be buried in ash pits etc.

PoW camp sites in Poland are also looted by those looking for remaining ground-dug artefacts to sell to the worldwide collectors market for such items. There are plenty of studies on this subject in Poland for those that care to look.

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#14

Post by little grey rabbit » 09 Nov 2015, 06:11

The looting of the area of the extermination centres was very intensive then, and still continues today; the last large case of grave robbing in Treblinka was reported in 2002 (Głuchowski and Kowalski, 2008). In October 2008, while in Sobibór, we noticed that people, probably equipped with a metal detector, had clandestinely dug a couple of days before we arrived in the forest, south of the ash mound memorial.
Sounds more likely you have two over-lapping teams of archaeologists each accusing the other of being the grave robbers. Or possibly archaeologists soliciting for funding

Why is it these grave robbers are always so much more successful in finding artifacts than trained archaeologists?

Robin O'neill went over Belzec 1997 with a metal detector and found 2 cigarette cases and a handful of coins. One of the cigarette cases had a name on it and could be dated to the Nisko deportations in 1939! Which being a Holocaust Historian he completely failed to trace correctly.
First Name
Max
Last Name
Munk
Date of Birth
20.10.1902
Place of Birth
Wien
Residence
Wien 2, Reichsbrückenstrasse 8

Deportation
Wien/Nisko
Date of Deportation
20.10.1939
http://www.doew.at/english


This is what Sturgis-Colls found in Treblinka recently
http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/p ... tion-camp/
This what a previous survey found at Treblinka
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/finds.html

Since it appears archaeologists are so hopeless at finding stuff, maybe it would make sense to employ the grave robbers instead?!

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Re: Looters dig up Holocaust victims' graves at Nazi death camp Sobibor in hunt for gold.

#15

Post by 4thskorpion » 09 Nov 2015, 09:22

little grey rabbit wrote: Sounds more likely you have two over-lapping teams of archaeologists each accusing the other of being the grave robbers. Or possibly archaeologists soliciting for funding
little grey rabbit wrote: Since it appears archaeologists are so hopeless at finding stuff, maybe it would make sense to employ the grave robbers instead?!
With respect it sounds like the Daily Mail are not the only ones capable of writing drivel.



Archaeological dig at Concentration Camp reveals what the Nazis tried to hide

Now, owing to the efforts Israeli archaeologist Yoram Haimi, many of the mysteries of what actually happened at Sobibor are finally being revealed — one grid at a time.

As reported in Haaretz, Haimi — who lost family members in the camp — is using standard archaeological techniques to piece together the layout of the camp, while looking for artifacts and other clues that could help historians chronicle the events that transpired there. Haimi is sifting the earth for anything left behind, while also relying on more non-invasive, high-tech aids such as ground-penetrating radar and global positioning satellite imaging.

What he's found has been nothing short of stunning — including evidence that more people may have died at Sobibor than previously thought:

Over five years of excavations, Haimi has been able to remap the camp and has unearthed thousands of items. He hasn't found anything about his family, but amid the teeth, bone shards and ashes through which he has sifted, he has recovered jewelry, keys and coins that have helped identify some of Sobibor's formerly nameless victims.

The heavy concentration of ashes led him to estimate that far more than 250,000 Jews were actually killed at Sobibor.

"Because of the lack of information about Sobibor, every little piece of information is significant," said Haimi. "No one knew where the gas chambers were. The Germans didn't want anyone to find out what was there. But thanks to what we have done, they didn't succeed."

The most touching find thus far, he said, has been an engraved metal identification tag bearing the name of Lea Judith de la Penha, a 6-year-old Jewish girl from Holland who Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial confirmed was murdered at the camp.

Lea Judith de la Penha, 11.05.1937, Amsterdam (article in Polish) :
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