While I have less than zero respect for your opponent, this reply is not responsive to what he wrote, namely, no examples of post-WWII mass murder of Jews by local inhabitants have been given.James Paul wrote:If you had bothered to look at the Wikipedia article you would have seen that there are ample examples of Jews being killed in pogroms by the locals in the Russian Empire. This completely disproves your statement (a statement you have provided no evidence to support).history1 wrote:Not true? Then please quote the specific text from your link!James Paul wrote:Not true.history1 wrote: It should be mentioned that Poland is the only country in Europe were Jews were murdered in pogroms by local inhibtants long before, during and even after (!!!) WWII.
Here is one example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewi ... Casualties
It seems you didn´t read the entire sentence from my post?
Bring examples were Jews were murdered long before, during and even AFTER WWII by local inhabitants!
wm has elaborated on this a lot further.
Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
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Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
I suppose a good response would be why are we playing this stupid game.
The original statement Poland is the only country in Europe where Jews were murdered in pogroms by local inhabitants long before, during and even after WWII is a loaded question fallacy (have you stopped beating your wife?). And as any fallacy doesn't deserve to be discussed or answered.
That some Jews were murdered doesn't prove responsibility for the Holocaust. It proves that some Jews were murdered nothing more. Murder is nothing unusual, happens all the time everywhere. The responsibility is with the perpetrators not the nation.
For the Holocaust were only responsible the Nazis, and even the diluted statement, that "the Nazis and their collaborators"(and Poles weren't collaborators) is actually false. The Holocaust was carried out by a shockingly small group of Nazis (and very cheaply, all the stories about death trains running at the expense of war effort are just nonsense), without willing collaborators the Nazis would have to allocate more of their own resources to the task, but not that much. The Holocaust would happen anyway.
The Nazi main weapon weren't masses of troops or their collaborators, but skilfull long term planning and even more skillful deception. The over 300,000 Warsaw Jews were sent to gas chambers by a handful of SS-men, a little larger group of collaborators, the 1000-men strong Jewish Police, and Jewish administration of the Warsaw Ghetto. Similarly the 200,000 Jews from the Łódź Ghetto. The same story repeated in many other ghettos.
The original statement Poland is the only country in Europe where Jews were murdered in pogroms by local inhabitants long before, during and even after WWII is a loaded question fallacy (have you stopped beating your wife?). And as any fallacy doesn't deserve to be discussed or answered.
That some Jews were murdered doesn't prove responsibility for the Holocaust. It proves that some Jews were murdered nothing more. Murder is nothing unusual, happens all the time everywhere. The responsibility is with the perpetrators not the nation.
For the Holocaust were only responsible the Nazis, and even the diluted statement, that "the Nazis and their collaborators"(and Poles weren't collaborators) is actually false. The Holocaust was carried out by a shockingly small group of Nazis (and very cheaply, all the stories about death trains running at the expense of war effort are just nonsense), without willing collaborators the Nazis would have to allocate more of their own resources to the task, but not that much. The Holocaust would happen anyway.
The Nazi main weapon weren't masses of troops or their collaborators, but skilfull long term planning and even more skillful deception. The over 300,000 Warsaw Jews were sent to gas chambers by a handful of SS-men, a little larger group of collaborators, the 1000-men strong Jewish Police, and Jewish administration of the Warsaw Ghetto. Similarly the 200,000 Jews from the Łódź Ghetto. The same story repeated in many other ghettos.
Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
I read the article but it stops even many years before WWII! I doubt that my English is so bad that you don´t understand what I requested. QUOTE the text in your link which says that inhabitants of the Russian Empire killed Jews before, during and after the Holocaust!James Paul wrote:[...]
If you had bothered to look at the Wikipedia article you would have seen that there are ample examples of Jews being killed in pogroms by the locals in the Russian Empire. This completely disproves your statement (a statement you have provided no evidence to support).
[...]
I bring you examples from Poland:
1918 (long before any German soldier entered Polish soil):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom_(1918)
1941 (during WWII):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom
1946 (after the Holocaust and WWII):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom
In the case you think that this were isolated cases read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... nd#Postwar
Or take a look on the Jewish deaths caused by antisemitic Polish violence from a Yad Vashem study :
"in total 327 people"!!!
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewi ... E2%80%9346
Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
It proofs that antisemtism was well avake before, during and even after WWII in Poland until the 60ies. No one mentioned your "responsibility for the Holocaust".wm wrote:[...] That some Jews were murdered doesn't prove responsibility for the Holocaust. It proves that some Jews were murdered nothing more.
I didn´t know that the Polish exil gouverment revoked the Polish citizenship from the Polish Blue Police members?wm wrote:[...] and even the diluted statement, that "the Nazis and their collaborators"(and Poles weren't collaborators) is actually false.[...]
How happy they´re smiling when posing with German forces:
http://www.dobroni.pl/n/policja-granatowa-po/8609
https://ioh.pl/artykuly/pokaz/polacy-po ... emcw,1109/
http://i.iplsc.com/gubernator-hans-fran ... 116-F4.jpg
So assiduous when controlling and aresting Polish Jews:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... ec6dca.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... trolle.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... olizei.jpg
Poles weren´t collaborateurs?
Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
Thanks god I don´t care whom you´re paying respect.Sergey Romanov wrote:[...]
While I have less than zero respect for your opponent, [...]
As we can see here thousands of times Russians don´t care for their Russian fellowmen either:
https://youtu.be/2CaVgUfSxds
https://youtu.be/QuLsWz8IU98
https://youtu.be/yKhJm2F2M4w
https://youtu.be/M5SrfU39qVs
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... al-arrests
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/11/opini ... .html?_r=0
You sure have more important things to fight with I guess. If not search for GULAG and Holodomor, russian war crimes in the Ukraine or Chechenia, etc..
Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
The German formation called Blue Police was a legitimate police force. Was seen as such by the Germans, by the Polish Government in Exile, and by international law.history1 wrote:[I didn´t know that the Polish exil gouverment revoked the Polish citizenship from the Polish Blue Police members?
How happy they´re smiling when posing with German forces:
That the Germans created it was a good thing, they should be commended, not condemned for this. At least in this they followed the Hague Conventions to the letter in this case.
That German formation was manned by forcibly conscripted Poles and some Germans. Their main task was fighting crime, crime was the scourge of the land during the occupation. After the war those people were carefully vetted by the communists and most of them actually made it without a problem, quite a few served as policemen later too.
Many of them were heroes who risked their lives and lives of their families - because they joined or cooperated with the Underground.
And then,
since when talking to a German was a crime?
since when smiling to a German was a crime?
since when even to be friends with a German was a crime?
Because it wasn't. Only the fanaticism of the Soviets, their sidekicks, and their today's successors made it so.
In my family house, in the town, Germans soldiers and Germans policemen were actually billeted for quite a time, and they are remembered as maybe scary but nice and helpful people - not different from the Poles. Actually if not for German policemen like those above my family wouldn't survive the war, at all.
You don't know who the Poles and the Germans on those pictures are, or what are they doing. One is certain they don't arrest anyone. And because you don't know it's reasonable to assume both the Poles and the Germans are mere common people, quite possible decent people (except that pos Frank) - not monsters or Holocaust operators. You don't know this.
The rest of your arguments are too disorganized to answer. That during war the Polish Army fought (actually mistakenly) with some Jewish groups allied with the enemy and as result 40+ Jews were killed means nothing. People die in wars, it happens.
Similarly the 1946 event, when a bunch of semi-illiterate, primitive, driven by their superstitions semi-peasants killed another 40+ Jews means nothing too. There was another war going on and people did stupid things.
Guess what, actually some people in my family were killed too - just as a short time earlier, and 40+ of their neighbors were roasted to their deaths, alive. It was a non-event nobody even remembers today, those yours are similar non-events unworthy to be remembered too.
In all those wars probably hundreds of thousands of people were killed in total. You stripped all the background, so only few isolated events remains - this makes it a fishing expedition and witch hunt at best.
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Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
Let's get back on topic -- the calculations of Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews.
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Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
I don't know how you get such "rubbish", but here is an easier "denier" calculation.James Paul wrote:Hi,
On quite a few Youtube videos I've seen Holocaust deniers post this information which allegedly "debunks" the Holocaust:
Where do Holocaust deniers get such rubbish from?Any good with numbers?
-(1940-1945) 5 years (x) 365 days = 1,825 days; (+) 1 day for a leap year (1944) = 1,826
- 1,826 days (x) 24 hours = 43,824 hours (in 5 years)
- 43,824 hours (x) 60 minutes in each hour = 2,629,440 minutes
- 6 million Jews (divided by) 2,629,440 minutes = 2.281 Jews every minute
- 60 seconds per minute (divided by) 2.281 Jews per minute = 1 Jew every 26.30 seconds
So, to believe their propaganda, you must believe that Germany, during those 5 years was killing a Jew every 26.30 seconds ... NONSTOP!
Now, considering the alleged gas chambers only came into operation in early 43 and ended late 44 the math is even more impressive.
The 6 million figure was accepted across the board back when Auschwitz had a big sign with 4 million on it i.e. 4 there +2 elsewhere =6 . If you are not old enough to have lived before 1990 , that is how it was.
Now since it is know that less than 1 million died at the Big A . That 4 is now 1, but it ain't.
Yet they did take down the sign , that is truth
So:
1 there +2 elsewhere = 3 ( or at best 4 using fractions), not 6.
That is not "denial", just simple math. Or do you wish to argue that all Holocaust history and MSM WWII programs back before 1990 were all works of "Denial" noting that 4 million figure at Auschwitz as accurate to derive the 6. And It was continuously implied the "4" was almost all Jews. I remember the TV shows and I have more than a few books from1960-1990 all stated the same thing. There are photos of those changing Auschwitz signs as well , if you never saw them in person.
I'll leave this at that. The battle between "believers" and "deniers" is pretty much "rubbish" as neither side uses real math since the sign came down, so establishing time constraints is meaningless as well. How can you, If the figures are incorrect to begin with?
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Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
What a perfect example of denier ignorance mixed with arrogance mixed with stupidity.ChristopherPerrien wrote:I don't know how you get such "rubbish", but here is an easier "denier" calculation.
The 6 million figure was accepted across the board back when Auschwitz had a big sign with 4 million on it i.e. 4 there +2 elsewhere =6 . If you are not old enough to have lived before 1990 , that is how it was.
The big sign in Auschwitz never said those 4 million were Jews.
Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
I think it should be mentioned that the Jews/non-Jews sharp distinction is a recent invention, twenty or so years old - so it could have been confusing to foreigners.
Earlier, and even before the war it was almost invisible. They taught in schools the people murdered in Auschwitz were people, not Poles or Jews. Similarly in the pre-war mainstream press tribal affiliation almost never was mentioned.
One might argue that never before so much racism was visible as today - all that this man was a Polish Jews, that woman wasn't.
That number was injected into the narrative early on by an ignorant but powerful communist party boss, because it felt correct. And although he and his faction were made irrelevant/purged later on by another faction, the Polish communist party couldn't have corrected that error without losing face so it had to be perpetuated and was forced on everybody.
And earlier, before Internet and digitalization, only a very few people had the money, time and opportunity to access original sources on the other side of the world, so the TV shows and books mentioned had no choice but follow like lemmings the narrative - but it wasn't a conspiracy to hide the truth.
A conspiracy is another communist injection into the narrative, gladly embraced by Western liberals/socialists, that anything to the right of the socialists was evil, or as the said earlier fascist. And the socialists/communists were the good guys who fought, and the others were bad guys who didn't or collaborated (and murdered or betrayed the Jews). This one is almost impossible to correct.
Earlier, and even before the war it was almost invisible. They taught in schools the people murdered in Auschwitz were people, not Poles or Jews. Similarly in the pre-war mainstream press tribal affiliation almost never was mentioned.
One might argue that never before so much racism was visible as today - all that this man was a Polish Jews, that woman wasn't.
That number was injected into the narrative early on by an ignorant but powerful communist party boss, because it felt correct. And although he and his faction were made irrelevant/purged later on by another faction, the Polish communist party couldn't have corrected that error without losing face so it had to be perpetuated and was forced on everybody.
And earlier, before Internet and digitalization, only a very few people had the money, time and opportunity to access original sources on the other side of the world, so the TV shows and books mentioned had no choice but follow like lemmings the narrative - but it wasn't a conspiracy to hide the truth.
A conspiracy is another communist injection into the narrative, gladly embraced by Western liberals/socialists, that anything to the right of the socialists was evil, or as the said earlier fascist. And the socialists/communists were the good guys who fought, and the others were bad guys who didn't or collaborated (and murdered or betrayed the Jews). This one is almost impossible to correct.
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Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
The number was "established" by the Soviet Extraordinary Commission and that is the reason why it had such a force and couldn't be overturned.wm wrote:I think it should be mentioned that the Jews/non-Jews sharp distinction is a recent invention, twenty or so years old - so it could have been confusing to foreigners.
Earlier, and even before the war it was almost invisible. They taught in schools the people murdered in Auschwitz were people, not Poles or Jews. Similarly in the pre-war mainstream press tribal affiliation almost never was mentioned.
One might argue that never before so much racism was visible as today - all that this man was a Polish Jews, that woman wasn't.
That number was injected into the narrative early on by an ignorant but powerful communist party boss, because it felt correct. And although he and his faction were made irrelevant/purged later on by another faction, the Polish communist party couldn't have corrected that error without losing face so it had to be perpetuated and was forced on everybody.
And earlier, before Internet and digitalization, only a very few people had the money, time and opportunity to access original sources on the other side of the world, so the TV shows and books mentioned had no choice but follow like lemmings the narrative - but it wasn't a conspiracy to hide the truth.
PS: It should be noted that the Commission's number did *not* refer to Jews, but rather in general to citizens of various European countries. The Commission's method was flawed: they used possible (as they saw them) cremation capacities to come to this number, which was always going to lead to nonsensical results (especially because this method emphasizes crematoria and doesn't properly account for the pit cremations). Nevertheless it should also be noted that they were not out to perpetrate a known falsehood, rather they believed that the number of people murdered in Au. actually was in the millions because the numbers like 4 or 6 million were bandied about among the survivors (who didn't know any better). The Commission simply took the survivors' stats and tried to make them look "scientific".
Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
Of course you are right, I messed it up. The story is Jakub Berman, the Polish Beria and Stalin's right hand, officially decreed the number of all Polish victims of the WW2 (in that the Auschwitz victims were of course included) without especially trying to get the number right. He maybe wasn't ignorant, but rather didn't care.
The Soviet Extraordinary Commission wasn't maybe as important (the Soviets weren't that bad at admitting errors, even such huge ones like Stalinism or gulags, and Auschwitz never was a significant part of Soviet/Russian mythos) as the Polish communists' desire to save face in Poland but especially abroad - because they used the not-quite-right numbers to substantiate their reparations claims from Germany.
The Soviet Extraordinary Commission wasn't maybe as important (the Soviets weren't that bad at admitting errors, even such huge ones like Stalinism or gulags, and Auschwitz never was a significant part of Soviet/Russian mythos) as the Polish communists' desire to save face in Poland but especially abroad - because they used the not-quite-right numbers to substantiate their reparations claims from Germany.
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Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
That is quite untrue. In the Soviet Union Jews were never targeted for persecution as Jews, in fact anti-Semitism was a criminal offence punishable by death. For example, the Crimean Tatar leader Ibragimov was executed for anti-Semitism in the 1920s, his "crime" being to oppose the proposal of the Soviet Government to settle large numbers of Jews in Crimea.in the Soviet Union a cultural genocide was successfully carried out against the Russian Jews, this resulted in total loss of their cultural identity, customs, and religion. The Jewish religious and political leaders were arrested and most eventually murdered, this includes the occupied in 1939 by the Soviets Polish lands,
Of course particular Jewish individuals, eg wealthy businessmen, religious leaders, opponents of Communism, were persecuted and even killed, but that was not because of their Jewishness but because they belonged to classes of all nationalities that were real or perceived opponents of the Soviet regime.
During the Great Terror of 1937-38, of all the Soviet ethnic groups Jews were statistically the least likely to be targeted for repression, slightly less than ethnic Russians and Ukrainians, and far less than ethnic Poles and Germans. To be sure significant numbers of Jews were killed during Stalin's purges of the Communist Party, but that was because so many Party members were of Jewish origin.
The historical fact is that the Jews of the Soviet Union, far from being a persecuted minority, were strongly represented in all Communist repressive organisations. For example, in the early 1920s the League of Militant Atheists (Soiuz Voinstvuiushchikh Bezbozhnikov), an organisation set up to persecute religious believers, in particular the Russian Orthodox Church, had some 500,000 members, of which some 200,000, a massive 40%, were members of the officially recognised Jewish nationality. In fact, Jews were the single largest ethnic group in the League, which was also headed by a Jew, Minei Izrailevich Gubelman, who concealed his Jewish ethnicity under the assumed name of Emil'ian Iaroslavskii.
As for the Jews of the Polish provinces annexed by the Soviet Union in 1939, although a number were arrested and deported as "anti-Soviet elements", significant numbers of them, particularly the young and members of Leftist groups, collaborated on a large scale with the Soviet occupiers, as pointed out by Kozielewski-Karski in his 1940 report to the Polish Government-in-Exile on the situation of the Jews in occupied Poland, in both the german and Soviet Zones of Occupation.
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Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
Sergey Romanov wrote:What a perfect example of denier ignorance mixed with arrogance mixed with stupidity.ChristopherPerrien wrote:I don't know how you get such "rubbish", but here is an easier "denier" calculation.
The 6 million figure was accepted across the board back when Auschwitz had a big sign with 4 million on it i.e. 4 there +2 elsewhere =6 . If you are not old enough to have lived before 1990 , that is how it was.
The big sign in Auschwitz never said those 4 million were Jews.
http://www.rense.com/general69/dim.htm4,000,000
Source: Cited by a Soviet document of May 6, 1945 and officially acknowledged by the Nuremberg War Crimes trial. This figure was also reported in The New York Times on April 18, 1945, although 50 years later on January 26, 1995, The New York Times and The Washington Post slashed the figure to 1,500,000 citing new findings by the Auschwitz Museum officials. In fact, the figure of 4,000,000 was later repudiated by the Auschwitz museum officials in 1990 but the figure of 1,500,000 victims was not formally announced by Polish President Lech Walesa until five years after the Auschwitz historians had first announced their discovery.
Denier? So when did you stop beating your wife? LOL
I simply do not care what the figure was , as long as the figure is accurate/valid. So don't go labelling me or putting me on one side or the other of this bogus fence of "Deniers" or "believers". Might as well be arguing about the existence of
the Big G, AFAIAC.
As to
The second derivation of the sign with 1.5 million said "mainly jews", and I don't what they imply in Russia , but here in the "West" it has always been implied "mainly Jews" back when the sign was 4 million. IIRC, you could watch the "World at War" series to get a typical feel for how Auschwitz and the Holocaust was portrayed over here in the West, pre-1990. 4 million gassed, 2 million killed elsewhere.The big sign in Auschwitz never said those 4 million were Jews
Note : I don't know much of the Rense site, however I do know it has some serious conspiracy issues going on in other areas , the above link page , seems to accurate for the sources it quotes and for the topic at hand.
Re: Holocaust deniers and the time it took to kill Jews
Michael, you wrote:
To be sure, the persecution was never officially because they were Jewish, but because they were "Zionist," or "cosmopolitan," but I think it fair to say that Jews in the Soviet Union from around 1948 on would suffer various forms of repression specifically as Jews.
That said, however, I would say that "cultural genocide" is a bit harsh. There was still at least one Soviet Yiddish journal published until the fall of the Soviet Union, and some Yiddish book publishing. There was also, I believe, a rabbinical seminary in Moscow, and a number of synagogues were allowed to operate (and that's not even going into the whole weirdness of Birobidjan).
But as for the notion that because antisemitism was illegal, it didn't exist, readers should check out some of these "anti Zionist" cartoons and decided for themselves if they fall under the heading of "antisemitism"
http://www.berdichev.org/jewsinurss_b_5.htm
That's certainly true for the period up to the the end of the 1940's; it is most certainly not true for the decades that followed (which would be in the time frame of "never")In the Soviet Union Jews were never targeted for persecution as Jews,
To be sure, the persecution was never officially because they were Jewish, but because they were "Zionist," or "cosmopolitan," but I think it fair to say that Jews in the Soviet Union from around 1948 on would suffer various forms of repression specifically as Jews.
That said, however, I would say that "cultural genocide" is a bit harsh. There was still at least one Soviet Yiddish journal published until the fall of the Soviet Union, and some Yiddish book publishing. There was also, I believe, a rabbinical seminary in Moscow, and a number of synagogues were allowed to operate (and that's not even going into the whole weirdness of Birobidjan).
But as for the notion that because antisemitism was illegal, it didn't exist, readers should check out some of these "anti Zionist" cartoons and decided for themselves if they fall under the heading of "antisemitism"
http://www.berdichev.org/jewsinurss_b_5.htm