Malmedy Massacre

[LWD]

... Personally, I believe more in another version, that these soldiers after surrender, tried to get their weapons back. ....

That would justify some of the dead if it really happened but those killed by pistol shot to the back of the head/neck especially if already wounded?

[Harro]

... Personally, I believe more in another version, that these soldiers after surrender, tried to get their weapons back. ....

That would justify some of the dead if it really happened but those killed by pistol shot to the back of the head/neck especially if already wounded?

Indeed, the "they picked up their weapons"-nonsense does not account for the fact that, 40 out of 84 bodies showed wounds to the head, consistent with execution. Even those Leibstandarte veterans I've spoken about Baugnez do not support the theory that the massacre started after the Americans picked up their guns.

[Retiarius]

Retiarius -- You asked:

but who here ever read about the Tragedy of Gorla, Massacre of Biscari or other small crimes (but bigger than Malmedy) they did?

We have one or more open threads here about the massacre at Biscari, as well as numerous threads on other POW massacres, both smaller and larger than Malmedy, so anyone interested can read about them here.

That you, didn't found anything about Gorla so I opened a topic.

[Retiarius]

... Personally, I believe more in another version, that these soldiers after surrender, tried to get their weapons back. ....

That would justify some of the dead if it really happened but those killed by pistol shot to the back of the head/neck especially if already wounded?

Indeed, the "they picked up their weapons"-nonsense does not account for the fact that, 40 out of 84 bodies showed wounds to the head, consistent with execution. Even those Leibstandarte veterans I've spoken about Baugnez do not support the theory that the massacre started after the Americans picked up their guns.

The fact is not if that justify or not but if happen in this way or not. Proves can be easily made as the soviets did to sent 10 germans to death or life prision after they confess (after torture) that they did the Massacre of Katyn. The thing is that if this version of facts, made by americans and not by a neutral point, can be believed. Honestly I don't. This massacre could be easily made all up, just to show to public opinion and also cover the crimes of war the americans did.

[Harro]

This forum is not about wild assumptions which are not supported by any evidence.

Did you find the names of that senator and his son yet?

[HaEn]

So, what it amounts to is : They said, that he said, that they said, that they saw, or they heard, or in other words, "Your dog was meaner than my dog" . The people are dead, history is written by the Victors, and we never may know WHAT exactly happened there. Yes, each army has its group of fanatics and/or scum. So perhaps it would be a good idea to let the whole darn thing die in peace.
As an "ex-criminal" by association ( German army service) I am well aware of that fact.
So "Pax vobiscum" and Happy Holidays to all of you.
HN

[Retiarius]

This forum is not about wild assumptions which are not supported by any evidence.

Did you find the names of that senator and his son yet?

This is irrelevant. My version is that the americans, might had collect some bodies of men killed in action, grouped all and took some pictures. Proves, evidences, witness etc... can all be made (like I exampled about the ones that confessed they did the Massecre of Katyn) under torture or in change of money. Patton, after the Massacre of Biscari, ordered his men to made up as the victims were snipers. On the execution of germans in Dachau, they destroyed proves.

[Harro]

With not a shred of evidence to support your theory, it is nothing more than what you want to believe. It tells us nothing about the massacre but all about you. If anything is irrelevant it's such unfounded, biased theories and I'm not going to discuss them with you.

[BillHermann]

Here is a point wild theory's can be made about all killings. With your logic maybe the SS killed outside of Dachau at Webling were planted to make the evil Americans look bad.

I won't go there as it off topic and ridiculous. The eye witness accounts from the W-SS are enough to validate most of the historical facts gathered on the matter.

[David Thompson]

Retiarius -- You wrote:

This forum is not about wild assumptions which are not supported by any evidence.

Did you find the names of that senator and his son yet?

This is irrelevant. My version is that the americans, might had collect some bodies of men killed in action, grouped all and took some pictures. Proves, evidences, witness etc... can all be made (like I exampled about the ones that confessed they did the Massecre of Katyn) under torture or in change of money. Patton, after the Massacre of Biscari, ordered his men to made up as the victims were snipers. On the execution of germans in Dachau, they destroyed proves.

(1) No, it's not irrelevant. You raised the claim, and you've been asked to document it. We take these requests seriously here:

If a poster raises a question about the events, other posters may answer the question with evidence. If a poster stops asking questions and begins to express a point of view, he then becomes an advocate for that viewpoint. When a person becomes an advocate, he has the burden of providing evidence for his point of view. If he has no evidence, or doesn't provide it when asked, it is reasonable for the reader to conclude that his opinion or viewpoint is uninformed and may fairly be discounted or rejected.

Undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless posts and threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum. For more on this subject, see the announcement at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 676#990676

This requirement applies to each specific claim. In the past, some posters have attempted to evade the proof requirement by resort to the following tactics, none of which are acceptable here:

A general reference to a website, or a book without page references; citations or links to racist websites; generalized citations to book reviews; and citations to unsourced articles.

Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after warning.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

(2) The Americans cared enough to investigate the massacre at Dachau. The Germans didn't bother to investigate their own massacre of US POWs at Malmedy, but the Americans did. There's not much consistency in your crediting the US investigation of the massacre of German POWs at Dachau, but claiming the American investigation at Malmedy was somehow faked.

(3) This brings me to the next point. This is a research section of the forum. The research sections of the forum function as an information exchange, where knowledgable people provide useful and sourced information on the topics being discussed. The unsourced opinions, notions and speculations of anonymous or pseudonymous internet posters have little or no value to our members or, for that matter, our readers. That is why we have a rule here:

3. Opinions

Since the purpose of this section of the forum is to exchange information and hold informed discussions about historical problems, posts which express unsolicited opinions without supporting facts and sources do not promote the purposes of the forum. Consequently, such posts are subject to deletion after a warning to the poster.

The same reasoning applies to opinion threads.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

Consider this your warning.

[Jochen S.]

Personally I believe your post is an insult to those US soldiers who survived this ordeal and the ones who did not. I have spoken to and corresponded with actual survivors and Belgian witnesses and can assure you that it did happen!

---

[BillHermann]

Indeed, not only to the victims of Baugnez but to all victims as that kind of rhetoric and spin can be used as an excuse to any tragedy.

[htk]

Dear mr Thomson

you've stated "The Germans didn't bother to investigate their own massacre of US POWs at Malmedy, but the Americans did."

can one honestly aks from the german army to investigate while fighting was still taking place and the situation was still fluid (ok ... doubtfull i they ever would have) but still.

[Harro]

can one honestly aks from the german army to investigate while fighting was still taking place and the situation was still fluid (ok ... doubtfull i they ever would have) but still.

But they didn't investigate the killings after the battle either. No members of the involved Leibstandarte elements were interviewed by the Hauptamt SS-Gericht or bothered in any other way.

[BillHermann]

That's actually incredible, all armies have the ability if they wish no matter how fluid the battle is to investigates and charge the guilty, their own or the enemy. The Nazis and SS had no problem using their courts at anytime to hold a trial and execute their own. Even in the last days of the war the police were killing cowards. There would have been no reason for the military to deal with these men because in the eyes of the SS and Nazi system they did not do anything that was worth investigating.