Malmedy Massacre

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Rob - wssob2
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#61

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 11 Dec 2012, 04:54

To that list I'd add a minor supplement. LtCol Pergrin was commanding the US engineer battalion deployed in the Malmedy area & was within hearing distance of the event. The engineer company he was inspecting at the time brought in many of the massacre survivors. Pergrin himself carried some of the wounded to the aid station in his jeep and was able to question them. His description of this is in a chapter in his book 'First Across the Rhine'
I'd like to add that Janice Giles's The Damned Engineers (1970) about Pergrin and the 291st Combat Engineer Battalion is IMO hand down one of the best unit histories of the US Army during the Bulge and in the whole ETO.

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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#62

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 11 Dec 2012, 05:21

Dave Thompson wrote:
The Germans didn't bother to investigate their own massacre of US POWs at Malmedy
I first read in Depuy's book that the German's did do some sort of "investigation" into the massacre, so I wanted to share what I've been able to compile about such an investigation:

Dec 18: Gustav Knittel and Heinz von Westernhagen briefly meet Peiper at LaGleize. During the commander's conference,
von Westernhagen mentions the SS killing POWs to Peiper, saying "I hear there was a real mess back at Malmedy" (Note: (the German word durcheinander is typically translated as "mixup")

On Dec 20, Allied Radio Calais broadcasts news of the Malmédy Massacre. British radio broadcast news of the massacre on the 21st.

Dec 22: Since naturally the Germans are monitoring Allied radio broadcasts, word of the alleged massacre spreads in the German High command.

Postwar, Jodl testified at the IMT (see Crossroads of Death, p.237, footnote #26) that he heard about the massacre and ordered and investigation through the Commander West, with a report to be sent to the Fuhrer. HQ radions LSSAH Divisional commander Monhke inquiring about any killing of POWs by SS troops.


On Dec 25th, The American weekly magazine Newsweek publishes an article on the Malmédy Massacre.

Back in the LSSAH, First Company, Panzer Signals battalion receives the message of an investigation into the massacre. Signals battalion CO SS-first lieutenant Helmut Liebrich discusses the matter with SS-Maj. Ralf Tieman. Tieman later claimed he made an investigation, but found no evidence that SS troops had murdered American prisoners.

Dec 26: Mohnke writes a glowing recommendation that Peiper be awarded theSwords to the Knight’s Cross, specifically citing Peiper’s “annihilation” of the units blocking their advance” at Bagneuz. Note: Yes Mohnke did use the German word vernichtung - infamous in Holocaust studies) Obviously Mohnke's not too worried about the SS killing POWs, because he just recommended a medal for doing that very thing!

Dec 30: The United States State Department informs Switzerland, the neutral "protective power," about the Malmédy Massacre. The State Department tells Swiss authorities to tell the Germans that the US expects the Germans to punish those responsible for the war crime


Jan 15:
German Army Group B informs Arms Forces High Command that there is no evidence for the Malmédy Massacre

Note: I do want to point out that there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the German forces ever investigated the crossroads, interviewed surviving POWs or SS troops.

I don't there there was much of an investigation at all.


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BillHermann
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#63

Post by BillHermann » 11 Dec 2012, 10:57

definitely interesting, here is the thing though. They had little record of investigating actions like this through out the war. Why would the Waffen-SS, OKH, SS or Nazi state want to investigate this when it was much about how the did business. Even when the Heer or Luftwaffe misbehaved there was little follow up unless it was towards Gemany, the Nazi State, military or the command structure.

Much of these actions were very much a concept of doing their job.

Jochen S.
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#64

Post by Jochen S. » 12 Dec 2012, 18:58

In addition to Rob: If there indeed was an 'investigation', I do believe it mainly existed on paper only(see attached doc.. One of serveral). The outcome is obvious.

Image

f.e. Sepp Dietrich (6. Pz Armee) claimed he had never heard of this incident before, the first time being when Model asked him if there was 'such thing' in his Army. Dietrich had his Chief of Staff make an investigation and it was reported to him that no such thing had occured. He even talked with Peiper about 8 days after the incident occured, Peiper didn't mention anything about it (An Interview with OBSTGF "Sepp" Dietrich, 8-9 Aug 45, Ethint 15).
I wil also attach the doc. reg. LSSAH, First Company, Panzer Signals battalion receives the message of an investigation into the massacre.

Image

---

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Harro
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#65

Post by Harro » 18 Feb 2013, 00:43

There are some seriously ill-informed people on this planet:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Standarte ... 7562317990
What complete nonsense! Jochen was found innocent of everything by the Everett petitioned the US Supreme Court for a writ of habeas corpus on the grounds that the those accused were illegally held in Landsberg prison after being convicted as a result of "illegal (torture etc) and fraudulently procured confessions." Peiper and others were cleared of ANY crime! Judge Van Roden ended his article with these words:

The American investigators who committed the atrocities in the name of American Justice and under the American flag are going scot-free. At this point there are two objectives which should be aimed for:

1. Those prisoners whose death sentences have not been commuted and who have not yet been hanged should be saved, pending full judicial review.
2. American investigators who abused the powers of victory and prostituted justice to vengeance, should be exposed in a public process, preferably in the U. S., and prosecuted.
So many errors I don't know where to begin :roll: Even wikipedia gives a nice correct summary of the case and concludes that their sentences were reduced. Nobody was found innocent.

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BillHermann
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#66

Post by BillHermann » 19 Feb 2013, 11:26

Sadly though, so many in our time have moved these simple aspects of history and the individuals to a larger than life status. Thanking theses figures to that level gives these people the ability to twist, bend, manipulate and make up history to suit thier needs.

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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#67

Post by Panzermahn » 22 Feb 2013, 16:02

According to de Zayas in his book the Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, chapter 11, the US State Department handed an official protest to Germany via Switzerland as protecting power with regards to the Malmedy Massacre. The German Foreign Office who received the official protest issued an an official dementi but also ordered an investigation to the claims that American POWs were shot at Malmedy and consulted with the Rundstedt's operation staff but nothing came out of this investigations.

However the interesting thing is that the operation staff of Rundstedt's command wrote to the Ausland Abwehr stating that the investigations of Malmedy should continue.

brick2
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#68

Post by brick2 » 27 Feb 2013, 09:51

Interesting photo (source ebaums)
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735206_10200262034010742_253846608_n.jpg (50.25 KiB) Viewed 1357 times

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Harro
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#69

Post by Harro » 27 Feb 2013, 10:28

But not related to Malmédy

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BillHermann
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#70

Post by BillHermann » 27 Feb 2013, 10:43

Why is that an interesting photo and this subject ? it has little or nothing to do with this topic with the exception of being in Belgium, during the Battle of the Bulge, a sign that says Malmady and that these men were with the the 1st SS Panzer Korps but that's pretty much it. This is the Kaiserbaracke crossroads and is no where near the Baugnez site, this photo is at least 20 km south of the site and Malmedy is even further away to the north. These men in this photo were assigned to a different route and not part of the the vangaurd of the 1st SS Panzer Regiment. The 1st SS Panzer Regiment and their support units were to the north and they were at Baugnez, the Malmedy massacre.

brick2
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#71

Post by brick2 » 27 Feb 2013, 23:31

Pull your head in BillHermann , I came across this photo and presented it in case it was any value to the thread.

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BillHermann
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#72

Post by BillHermann » 28 Feb 2013, 07:04

Pull your head in? Pardon me?

David Thompson
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#73

Post by David Thompson » 28 Feb 2013, 16:14

Let's get back on topic, gentlemen.

Jack Kerouac
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#74

Post by Jack Kerouac » 18 Sep 2014, 18:40

The majority of the sources quoted here about the alleged "massacre" (even the name of this event implies guilt prior to investigation, doesn't it?) Are American or British authors. What about Ralf Tiemann's description in his book on the divisional history of the Leibstandarte (volume IV/2), or the many first hand accounts from German soldiers who were actually there? No post war literature takes into account this incident from the Germans perspective - and isn't it the duty of the historian to look at the facts from both sides to determine the truth? It's clear that the popular opinion that is peddled is that this was a malicious predetermined slaughter, while the Germans accounts all describe it as them sending prisoners to the rear without escort, and the vanguard following behind mistaking the group of prisoners, who did not follow the spearheads' directions to gather at the cross roads, for armed combatants and firing on them by mistake. Given the fact that there were so many "survivors", and that the spearheads had no time to collect prisoners while trying to take the town of engelsdorf by surprise, doesn't it seem more plausible that this was more of a miscommunication in the fog of war rather than cold blooded murder? And by the way, if anyone wants to to put on a white vest and call the allies saints, I would direct them to the first hand accounts in Wilhelm Tieke's "in the fire storm of the last years of the war" where descriptions are plentiful of allied soldiers murdering Germany POWs, fighter bomber firing upon ambulances marked with the red cross symbol, etc. The truth has to be somewhere in the middle, but I'm afraid emotions coupled with a desire for vengeance denied true justice to the men of the Leibstandarte and the American 25th artillery observation battalion.

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Harro
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Re: Malmedy Massacre

#75

Post by Harro » 18 Sep 2014, 19:12

Jack Kerouac wrote:No post war literature takes into account this incident from the Germans perspective
You're wrong. Read Cuppens, Westemeier, Reynolds and above all Parker.

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