Allied units Implicated in War Crimes

[LWD]

http://books.google.com/books?id=77V02i ... cy&f=false
implies that at least one M-26 group had a CEP of ~400ft vs the airforce standard of 1,000ft.
https://www.afresearch.org/skins/rims/q ... ay.aspx?...
states:

The squadron had been trained in low level, formation bombing procedures in the States but initial operational experience in the theater proved that tactic was too dangerous.43 B-26’s were ordered to operate at medium altitudes (7,000-9,000 feet) for the remainder of the war unless there was little or no anti-aircraft artillery threat.44 Only the lead ships were usually equipped with the Norden bombsights and the other planes in the box formation would bomb off the lead aircraft. Initial accuracy results of these daylight visual bombing missions were not impressive

Given the SOP for target selection I'd strongly suspect that the dressing station was not targeted but was collateral damage.

[Tom Nutter]

I put together a rather lengthy comment that is similar to the last two posts, but in some way when I went to review it, the thing disappeared. I will try to reconstruct it.

Tom

[Andy H]

Given the SOP for target selection I'd strongly suspect that the dressing station was not targeted but was collateral damage.

Hi

I would suspect that your correct in that assumption. Wihout knowing where the dressing station was in regards to other legitimate targets, its difficult to give a 100% gurantee. Lets hope that Tom's misplaced response will add something to the mix.

Regards

Andy H

[LWD]

We haven't been discussing the other case Mr. Nutter mentioned. From what he stated I would have a hard time believing that it wasn't indeed a war crime (a group of formerly wounded soldiers with fractured skulls and eyes "struk out"). Does anyone know what allied units were in the area at the time? Could it have been partizans or a resistance group of some sort?

[Andy H]

Hi

Context is everything given the limited actual information we know

Regards

Andy H

[red devil]

Whilst I cannot deny or confirm any involvement of the Allies in so called war crimes, I cannot state that none UK troops would have indulged in such. But, in defence of English soldiers, the way in which they were brought up and saw other nations, I would argue stringently that they would not have had this in mind - to quote an english phrase - its simply not cricket.

To our friends from abroad, this means - that something is simply 'not done'.

Obviously, there are, as in any army, in any war, some 'idiots' - but overall, to commit an attrocity was not in the British soldiers metabolism.

So saying, I do not put it past our politicians to order such. I was led to believe, long ago, that Churchill himself, ordered the forcible return, across the Austro-Hungarian border, of several thousand White Russians. To a certain death. To be fair, I have never researched this. Possibly because I was afraid of what I might find!

[David Thompson]

Please confine posts in this research "sticky" to allegations that mention specific units.

[red devil]

Sorry Dave

[Ahnenerbe1]

I have been reading some of the information here and had a question. I have not seen any topics of field hospitals being attacked. I have interviewed literally hundreds of WW2 vets in the last 30 years (a great deal German) to document the stories they tell. One recurring issue was the allied air forces strafing military hospitals clearly marked with the red cross. Anyone have any documented stories on this. I interviewed 2 AAAC/351st FG pilots here in Ohio who said they were "instructed" not to pay attention to the red cross flag as the Germans used it as a means of hiding combat units. Officers who were doctors in the German military said they went out of the way to make sure no combat personnel or equipment was allowed to be placed close to field hospitals but they were still attacked. German pilots I have interviewed said they always stayed away from hospitals and only went after legitimate military targets and they always thought of allied aircrews who did this to be murderers and criminals.

[David Thompson]

Ahnenerbe1 -- We have a number of posts and threads on that and related topics; here are some of them:

12th SS ambulances strafed by allied planes
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=145989
BEF Hospital Trains
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=164314
Atrocities of 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=109598
Canadian Orders "Take No Prisoners"
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=139551
Killing of American Medics and Wounded Personnel - Road between Villers-Cotterets and Meaux, France - Aug 1944
viewtopic.php?p=1172034#p1172034 and follow-up posts
Bombing of hospital ships
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=77953
US War Crimes and "Foot Soldier"
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47310
War crimes against Germans in France prior Tulle & Oradour
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=72188
Russian Bolshevik attacks on German Hospitals & Medics
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27704


viewtopic.php?p=760092#p760092
viewtopic.php?p=734695#p734695
United States v. Heinz Hagendorf, mentioned at viewtopic.php?p=1234293#p1234293

There are also a number of open threads on the practice of strafing by aircraft in various contexts too (shipwreck survivors, parachuting airmen, civilians, etc.). If you don't find a specific thread on your subject of interest, feel free to start a new one in the discussion section of the forum.

Allegations of atrocities made by General Yeager, US Army.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=89735
An American hero recalls his air force unit ordered to strafe
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68350

[Ahnenerbe1]

Wow, thanks for that David. We used to have a German couple who lived next door to us, the husband was in the KM on the Gneisenau, his wife was a mother of 3 and stayed in Stettin at their home the Gov gave them for 3 chidren. In 1944 she fled west with thousands of others. She told me a story that reminds me of Chuck Y's story. She was with a refugee colum of several hundred in Nov 1944 in Middle Germany. American P-51 fighters came in and strafed the road killing and wounding many. She was pushing a pram with her 2 youngest and a bullet hit the pram blowing off the wheel and missing her 8 month old by a few mm. It killed a child behind her carried in his mothers arms. She was saddend and felt very lucky at the same time.

[Ken S.]

From the First World War...

According to the regimental history for Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 93, page 284:

Am 6. Sept. drangen amerikanische Truppen mit starken Kraeften gegen die neue Stellung vor. Das Vorfeld ging zum groessten Teil verloren. Das II. Bat. hatte schwere Verluste. Lt. Wachner, Lt. Schultz und Lt. Hellmann fielen. Durch eidliche Zeugenaussagen wurde einwandfrei festgestellt, dass die amerikanischen Truppen mehrere verwundete Gefangene ohne weiteres erschossen.

[arturolorioli]

Penn44 wrote:
"Penn44
.... Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:07 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. In Sicily, July 1943, an American Army captain and sergeant were courts martialed for executing 30-35 German POWs. The two were given relatively light sentences of only a few years imprisonment. According to the source I read, the captain made reference to inflammatory sppeches made by Patton to his unit, and he therefore thought the killings were in accordance to Patton's speech. I think Patton had to respond in writing to the court (a disposition?).

I am sorry, I can not cite the source at the moment, I do not have my notes ready available.

The so-called "Biscari Massacre" July 14th 1943. Members of the US 180th infantry Rgt (45th Infantry Division) murdered in two separate incidents a large number of Italian POWs, part of the surrendered garrison of the San Pietro Airport. Number varies according to the sources, usualy 72 to 79 Italians and 2 to 4 germans victims are listed. An US Captain and an US Sergeant were indicted and courtmartialed. The responsabilities of both were demonstrated, but rather puzzling the captain was acquited while the Sergeant got a life sentence (but IIRC was released less than one year later).
Full reference of the fact can be found in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscari_massacre ... considering the often low standards of Wikipedia, for once it's a remarkably detailed and well referenced article).

[David Thompson]

A post from waratah, which did not mention any specific unit but did refer to alleged war crimes in New Guinea, was given a thread of its own at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=187510

[LWD]

... while the Sergeant got a life sentence (but IIRC was released less than one year later). ...

I recall reading that rather than being released his sentence was changed from life in prison to service on the front lines. He was killed in action not long afterwards again from memory. I think there may also have been an explanation of why the captain was found not guilty but am not sure and don't have the site(s) bookmarked.