"Victor's Justice"

[David Thompson]

I've read the book too, Panzermahn (U of Kansas sent me a copy to review). You're giving the author's premise short shrift, and you're not talking about the numerous war crimes FM Kesselring didn't get put on trial for, but which are mentioned by the author as resulting from his extremely broad reprisal orders. You're also not mentioning the sense of outrage in Italy which came when the British commuted FM Kesselring's sentence. Finally, you're ignoring the war crimes which have been discovered and prosecuted since Kesselring was put on trial, and the fact that his lack of repentance destroyed his credibility after his release.

[Panzermahn]

I've read the book too, Panzermahn (U of Kansas sent me a copy to review). You're giving the premise short shrift, and you're not talking about the numerous war crimes FM Kesselring didn't get put on trial for, but which are mentioned by the author as resulting from his extremely broad reprisal orders. You're also not mentioning the sense of outrage in Italy which came when the British commuted FM Kesselring's sentence.

Yes, there were outrage in Italy especially when it comes to the early release of Kesselring. However my intention was that to show that the beliefs in victor's justice in this topic is not necessarily confined to the Germans but also to the Allied military commanders.

Of course, no Allied personalities had worked for the release of the main defendents in the Nuremberg IMT because they genuinely believed that those are the real and genuine war criminals (I read before Norman Montague, ex-governor of the Bank of England actually tried behind to scenes to secure the release of Dr. Hljamar Schact - which indeed happened - most likely to the pre-war close relationship between them and another possible factor is that both are them are freemasons but that's another story). However for the Kesselring and von Manstein, the author shows that many Allied military commanders as well as Britain's wartime leader Winston Churchill has clamored for the release of Kesselring and von Manstein despite the official stance of the British government that the release of these two German field marshal is on the grounds of clemency rather than rehabilitation/exoneration and the judgement of their trials still stand.

Also, another point is that the author wrote that British believed in re-education for the Germans rather than denazification by the Americans and the Germans themselves (this point was also mentioned by Perry Biddiscombe is his book, Denazification of Nazi Germany: A History 1945-50)

[David Thompson]

Panzermahn -- If you want to see "Victors' justice" (siegersjustiz) in action, you only have to look at the German treatment of folks in the countries they occupied. If you have forgotten or haven't read them, we have a large number of threads on the subject in this section of AHF. I'll be happy to point them out to you if you need to refresh your recollection.

The author of Kesselring's Last Battle (as well as the author of another U of K book, Hitler's Generals on Trial) discusses the changing attitude of various western European, American and German groups about Nazi-era war criminals, but those discussions are set in the context of the changing conditions brought on by the "Cold War," and do not deal with the guilt or innocence of the German war crimes defendants. Note also that opinion, even in Germany, was hardly unanimous on the war criminal issue. That's why Germany still prosecutes its own WWII war criminals even today.

[Panzermahn]

Panzermahn -- If you want to see "Victors' justice" (siegersjustiz) in action, you only have to look at the German treatment of folks in the countries they occupied. If you have forgotten or haven't read them, we have a large number of threads on the subject in this section of AHF. I'll be happy to point them out to you if you need to refresh your recollection.

The author of Kesselring's Last Battle (as well as the author of another U of K book, Hitler's Generals on Trial) discusses the changing attitude of various western European, American and German groups about Nazi-era war criminals, but those discussions are set in the context of the changing conditions brought on by the "Cold War," and do not deal with the guilt or innocence of the German war crimes defendants. Note also that opinion, even in Germany, was hardly unanimous on the war criminal issue. That's why Germany still prosecutes its own WWII war criminals even today.

I certainly know of the cruelties and brutalities perpetrated in the Eastern Front (Kommissarbefehl, Hostages Order, 10-to-1 ratio). But it's also an undeniable fact that the siegersjustiz of the German occupation in the Western Front was even praised by the people of the occupied lands such as in France where the locals praised the German discipline when German soldiers were executed for crimes such as looting and raping and all of this were before the mushrooming of partisan provocation that resulted in German retaliation/reprisals such as in Oradour-Sur-Glane and the Fossa Ardeatine. Compare this with the situation when the Americans landed on D-day where Frenchwomen took up rifles to snipe them. Not forgetting the German military discipline held in the faces of food shortage especially beginning from 1943 such as in Greece or in the Channel Islands where the Wehrmacht did not even took a single grain of the food sent by neutral countries or confiscating Red Cross parcels meant for POWs.

As bad as the Wehrmacht/Waffen SS for what they did in WW2, we also must acknowledge that there were acts of humanity/kindness by the soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS during WW2 in order to learn the history of WW2 in an objective and impartial manner

Panzermahn

[the_historian]

(I read before Norman Montague, ex-governor of the Bank of England actually tried behind to scenes to secure the release of Dr. Hljamar Schact - which indeed happened - most likely to the pre-war close relationship between them and another possible factor is that both are them are freemasons but that's another story).

Both were members of the Anglo-German Fellowship, and Montague was Godfather to one of Schact's grandchildren.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-German_Fellowship
Not aware of any definite proof that either were masons though.

[David Thompson]

For interested readers:

Was Hjalmar Schacht a freemason?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=34584

Now let's get back on topic.

[the_historian]

Cheers David.
I'm dubious but grateful.
Anyway, onwards and upwards.