Allied Rapists.....

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Luca
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Re: re: rapes etc.

#46

Post by Luca » 29 Sep 2003, 03:25

Rob - WSSOB wrote:BTW I don’t understand what all your accounts from 1944-45 Italy are supposed to illustrate rape as an official Allied policy, other than painting Fascists as innocent victims in what was essentially a civil war. I too would like to learn more about your sources and the context of your accounts.
I dont know nothing concern the Ostuf sources or contexts, but cause the gently question of the dear Rob, i hope that somone of the Members will able to traslate this proclamation to the Algerians and Marroccos troops of the french Gen. Juin before the attak of the Cassino front in May 44 in Italia.
Luca

Ps = if Rob want learn more about my sources and contexts maybe i will able of add some more informations.



Proclama ai soldati

Di Alphonse Juin

"Soldati, uomini che soffrite in un paese estraneo e nemico, che siete trattati come cani e dovete combattere come lupi per diventare uomini liberi nel vostro paese libero, voi uomini che siete stati costretti a rinunciare a tutti i piaceri della vita, che avete un sorso di cognac prima della battaglia, che dovete accontentarvi delle prostitute arabe al seguito delle salmerie, che rischiate la degradazione, il palo, la fucilazione ogni volta che vi avvicinate ad una donna dalla pelle bianca e la carne tenera, che leggete il disgusto negli occhi belli di queste belle donne nemiche ma calde.
Voi uomini valorosi che avete traversato il mare e subite le più atroci fatiche, che avete tanto coraggio da andare incontro al nemico con la baionetta e gettate il mitra, che camminate scalzi sulle pietre, siete bravi, silenziosi come le linci del deserto, resistenti come i cammelli delle Kabile, spietati come i serpenti, che combattete col Burnus e disprezzate l'elmetto, voi leopardi, nobili belve che siete stati trattati fino ad ora come sciacalli, come lupi muschiati, come carne da macello, uomini d'Africa, il vostro generale vi annuncia, vi promette solennemente, vi giura sul suo onore di soldato e sulla bandiera di Francia che si alza per l'ultima volta il sole delle vostre sofferenze, sulle vostre privazioni, sulla vostra fame.
Oltre quei monti, oltre quei nemici che stanotte ucciderete, c'è una terra larga e ricca di donne, , di vino, di case. Se voi riuscirete a passare oltre quella linea senza lasciare vivo un solo nemico, il vostro generale vi promette, vi giura, vi proclama che quelle donne, quelle case, quel vino, tutto quello che troverete sarà vostro, a vostro piacimento e volontà. Per cinquanta ore. E potrete avere tutto, fare tutto, prendere tutto, distruggere e portare via, se avrete vinto, se ve lo sarete meritato. Il vostro generale manterrà la promessa, se voi obbedirete per l'ultima volta fino alla vittoria!"

Rob - wssob2
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translation

#47

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 29 Sep 2003, 17:38

Buongiorno Luca,

Here's my translation of your exerpt in Italian. I've split the exerpt up into phrases so that it can be easier to read. I've added some commentary in brackets for words with which I was unsure:



Proclamation to the Soldiers.

Soldiers, men who suffer in a foreign and enemy land who are treated like dogs and who must fight like wolves in order to become free men in your free country,

men who have been forced to renounce to all the pleasures of life, that you have a sorso (sorsata? – gulp) of cognac before the battle,

[note: I think its supposed to say "not even a swig of cognac before the battle"]

who have to make due with Arabic prostitutes that follow the baggage train,

who risk suffering, the (palo – palla? – bullet?) , the firing squad every time you advance towards a white woman of tender flesh, reading the disgust in the beautiful eyes of these hot, sexy women.

You valorous men, who have crossed the sea and endured the most atrocious labors,

who have had the courage to advance with the bayonet against the enemy and fire the submachine pistol, who have walked barefoot on stones,

you are brave - silent as the lynxes of the desert, resistant as the camels of the Kabile [a place in N. Africa?], pitiless as snakes,

who fight with the Burnus [bourtnous? –a North African cloak] and disdain the helmet, you Leopards, noble, wild animals that until have been treated like jackals, like rank-smelling wolves, like slaughterhouse meat,

Men of Africa, your general announces, solemnly swears to you, on the soldier’s honor and on the flag of France, that this is the last time the sun rises on your suffering, your deprivations and your hunger.

Beyond these mountains, beyond those enemies who tonight you will kill, there is one wide and rich earth of women, wine and houses. If you succeed to advance beyond that line without leaving a single enemy alive, your General promises, swears, and proclaims to you that those houses, women and wine, all that you encounter, will be yours, for your pleasure and will.

For fifty hours.

And you will be able to have it all, to make it and to take it all, to destroy and to carry away, if you win, for you will have deserved it. Your general will maintain the promise, if you will obey for the last time until Victory


As an FYI to all: General Alphonse Juin lead the French Expeditionary Corps [FEC] in Italy during 1944. The FEC was mostly comprised of North African troops - Algerians, Moroccans and Tunisians, and included the 2nd Moroccan Infantry Division and the 3rd Algerian Infantry Division. The Moroccan soldiers were known as "Goums" or "Goumiers" and were excellent mountain infantrymen. Like the British Ghurkkas, the Goums were renowned for their combat skills with the knife. The FEC is famous for its combat performance during the Cassino campaign, especially for capturing Monte Majo and the town of Esperia.

OK Luca I have some questions for you:

Where did you get this quote? What is your source? Give book name, date published, publisher, etc.

When was this document supposedly written? January 1944? March 44? March 45? During what battle and what campaign?

What is the primary source for this quote? Is there any data, time, document ID number that can be identified for this excerpt?

Can you find this order in the original French? (I assume it would be in French instead of Italian, since it did supposedly come from the FEC)

Does this primary source document still exist and in what French military archives can it be found?

Do you have any evidence that this 50-hour permission was carried out? I'd be interested to read what other information you have.


Rob


Ostuf Charlemagne
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#48

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 30 Sep 2003, 04:48

Rob : re-read the beginning of this topic...i think i perfectly demostrated that YES,the 50 hours permit was really ''profitted ''.(Even against a male priest !)

Luca
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Re: translation

#49

Post by Luca » 30 Sep 2003, 11:25

Rob - WSSOB wrote:OK Luca I have some questions for you:

Where did you get this quote? What is your source? Give book name, date published, publisher, etc.

When was this document supposedly written? January 1944? March 44? March 45? During what battle and what campaign?

What is the primary source for this quote? Is there any data, time, document ID number that can be identified for this excerpt?

Can you find this order in the original French? (I assume it would be in French instead of Italian, since it did supposedly come from the FEC)

Does this primary source document still exist and in what French military archives can it be found?

Do you have any evidence that this 50-hour permission was carried out? I'd be interested to read what other information you have.


Rob
Dear Rob, thank you very much for your gently traslation and compliment for your italian language.
This proclamation was pronunced in May 44 in the Cassino front (if i remeber well).
As i have write before was a proclamation before an attak, so no was written. A mountain of eye-witness can confirm the fact and someone have immediatly write the text, but i never see the original copy. Is in any case a well know fact here in Italia. I have some doubt that is the same in France. Concern the evidence of the 50 hours i dont know if was carried out. What is sure is that when the french colonial troops arrive in Italia what occured no was for 50 hours only, but long terrifics months.
The proclamation of the gen. Juin can only confirm a well know fact, the assolute free-hand that was permitted from the french officers for the africans soldiers.
Is funny that in your gently traslation you have put in evidence with big space...

..pleasure and will.

For fifty hours.

And you will be able....

infact the italian population was very happy if the sad facts was for 50 hours only.
What occurre was so disgusted that also the allies troops no agree.
....A big group of marrocains have take the habit of go every nights in a little italian town and every night rape womans, kill men and robbery all was possible take. A Canadian Seargent take a personal decision and with 4 canadians soldiers of he platoon organize a trap. The marrocains immediatly try to escape but some was hard knock and beat and 1 was killed. After this night the marrocains change target and the little town never was touched from new problems.
Desolate that i cant give you write sources or exacts dates for this fact, infact i also no remember now the name of the town.
I dont know what is possible found in the french military archives, as you ask, but sure you will able to found that the french colonial troops was retired from the italian front some months after the arrive in Italia.
Why? i hope that you can agree with me that appare a little bit strange.
The war was win but the italian front no was so easy. The necessery of troops is evident. Why all they was send in Africa again?
The fact (and i cant show to you offical papers with exacts dates or so but obviously exists) well know is that the allies make strong protests with the French governament and the military french high ranks decide that was better retire all the colonial troops from the italian land.
This can also demonstrate how bad, big, hard and sistematic was the acts of the french colonial troops in Italia.
Sadly was necessery long time for the allies protests for make some results, and this long time is well impressed also today in the population of the south Italia.
The Juin proclamation, that appare have scandalized so much your opinion, can be demonstrate that for 50 hours these sad facts was officially permitted. Sincerly, appare at my eyes only with scarce interest.
Infact appare much more interesting focus the point in the fact that french officers tolerate these sad facts every days.
Was so abitual for the colonial troops the rapes, the assassinations and the robberys that was impossible for the french officers force the troops in a new correct sistem.
After months of tolleration and, as you can read in the gen Juni proclamation, also of offical permission, they was forced to retire all the colonial troops cause the offically strong allies protests.
A great number of II WW facts was occulted or mistificated in Italia in the post war, but the facts of the french colonials troops was so well know from all the italian population that in the post war a movie with famous producer and actors was produced in the "partisan" Italia. Also in this movie you can find the confirm of what i say.
In any case, cause your asks, i will see if im able to found some piece of papers that can maybe interest you.
Luca

Luca
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Re: translation

#50

Post by Luca » 30 Sep 2003, 11:47

Rob - WSSOB wrote:Like the British Ghurkkas, the Goums were renowned for their combat skills with the knife.
I have a question concern the Gurkas and, at the first second, i want write..sorry for the off topic question... but reading the title of this topic maybe can be accepted as in topic question.
I want say that i dont know nothing concern this, i only know some rumors.
I true that the Gurkas raped 1 time all the war prisoners as big offence?
After this the tretment of the prisoners was perfect and very good, but immediatly after the capture all they was raped 1 time.
I want puntualize that no have nothing to do with the sex, obviously the Gurka corp, that have also my modest respect, no is a gay corp.
Appear that was only used as big offence to the losers.
So obviously this use no was considered from the Gurka as sex crime, but maybe the prisoners no have the same impression.
Probable is a stupid question without any evidence, as i repeat, was only rumors.
Luca

Ostuf Charlemagne
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#51

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 01 Oct 2003, 05:47

Rob : Confronted with so much facts,you are looking like an ''allied revisionnist''....

Luca : I think the post war movie you mentionate shows Sofia Loren as an italian woman raped by french north africans troops....i saw it years ago.
The french expeditionnary corps wasn't retired because the many rapes against italian women...the french commandment didn't gave a shit about that ,but because it was scheduled to the invasion of the south of France...there they raped many germans male prisonners,for keeping with their custom...my source : the father of a friend of mine served within this expeditionnary corps and he told us ,one night that he witnessed how the moroccans raped a young blond german prisonner about 17 old,and then cutted his throat...he says the french soldiers were disgusted but it was nothing to be done because french commandment tolerated these deeds as a reward to our ''brave'' colonial soldiers and that it was customary in their way to make war since centuries ago !

Luca
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#52

Post by Luca » 01 Oct 2003, 06:47

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:The french expeditionnary corps wasn't retired...
Opss :P
......after 4 hours of bed and a good coffee i can understend a little bit better the english language.
What i listen a mountains of years ago, as i ve write before, was that the France was forced to retire the colonial troops from italian front cause the strong repatly protests of the allies states.
You can confirm me that no only the French officers, but also the allies states, eyes witness of the sad facts, didn't gave a shit about that?
In this case the sad facts appare, if can be possible, more sad.
Luca

PS = Yes ,she was Sofia Loren and in the movie she was raped from dozens of colonial soldiers with she very young doughter in a gang bang rape.
Last edited by Luca on 03 Oct 2003, 02:49, edited 2 times in total.

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#53

Post by David Thompson » 01 Oct 2003, 07:53

Just in case interested readers would like more detailed information on the man accused of having command responsibility for many of the sordid events mentioned in this thread, here is a brief biography, followed by a photograph:

Juin, Alphonse-Pierre (1888-1967) [Marshal of France] -- General Officer Commanding French 15th Motorized Division 1939-1940; Prisoner of War 1940-41; French Commander in Chief of Morocco 1941-1942; French Commander in Chief of North Africa 1942-1943; Chief of the General Staff of the French Army 1943; commander, French Expeditionary Corps (Corps Expéditionaire Francais), Italy 1943-1944; Chief of the French National Defence Staff 1944-1947; French Resident-General of Morocco 1947-1951; Chief of the French Armed Forces General Staff and President of the French Chief of Staffs Committee 1951-1953; Commander in Chief Allied Forces Central Europe 1953-1956 {died 1967 (Steen Ammentorp, The Generals of WWII: French Generals, http://www.generals.dk/French2.htm#J).}
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Luca
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#54

Post by Luca » 01 Oct 2003, 11:53

Delete

FB
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#55

Post by FB » 01 Oct 2003, 12:08

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Rob : Confronted with so much facts,you are looking like an ''allied revisionnist''....

Luca : I think the post war movie you mentionate shows Sofia Loren as an italian woman raped by french north africans troops....i saw it years ago.
The french expeditionnary corps wasn't retired because the many rapes against italian women...the french commandment didn't gave a shit about that ,but because it was scheduled to the invasion of the south of France...there they raped many germans male prisonners,for keeping with their custom...my source : the father of a friend of mine served within this expeditionnary corps and he told us ,one night that he witnessed how the moroccans raped a young blond german prisonner about 17 old,and then cutted his throat...he says the french soldiers were disgusted but it was nothing to be done because french commandment tolerated these deeds as a reward to our ''brave'' colonial soldiers and that it was customary in their way to make war since centuries ago !

If I'm not making an enormous mistake the movie is "La Ciociara", based on Moravia's novel (btw: Moravia was well known for his leftist political feelings).

I guess that a part the need for the French Colonials in the invasion in Southern France, also the annoing pieces of news about the brutalities committed by the Moroccans that were published several times on the Osservatore Romano (the official Vatican newspaper) had something to do with them leaving Italy.

Best regards

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#56

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 01 Oct 2003, 15:58

Sorry Luca I don't know much about Ghurkkas and nothing about their sex crimes!

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Re: definitions please

#57

Post by Germania » 14 Oct 2003, 16:24

[quote=
BTW Hans Schmidt is a paleo-Nazi (meaning he was führertreue back when there was a Führer to be true to) and a Holocaust denier. His self-published autobiography "SS-Panzergrenadier" is a tedious read. Though it's an interesting book (because it shows that many W-SS men were not just "only soldiers" - they were, and remain, committed Nazis) it it's about as factually "accurate" as a Volkischer Beobachter broadsheet.[/quote]

The political opinion of an person the definition if his statements are true or not? I don´t think so because everything about russian army is from communists and people who are no communists out of russian write the so called facts a little bit from another point of view!

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#58

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 15 Oct 2003, 03:56

Yes Germania....for Rob and some others, only the opinion of holocaustists may be true.... if a former SS mann says ''it's raining'' when it's raining ,he is a revisionnist !

And the reading of ''SS Panzergrenadier'' is not tedious at all .

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#59

Post by John W » 15 Oct 2003, 05:41

Luca: I have also not heard of any Gurkhas commiting any sex crimes. Yes, they were often brutal on the battlefield (especially in close combat) but I haven't heard of any major mistreatment of prisoners.

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#60

Post by Germania » 15 Oct 2003, 07:27

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Yes Germania....for Rob and some others, only the opinion of holocaustists may be true.... if a former SS mann says ''it's raining'' when it's raining ,he is a revisionnist !

And the reading of ''SS Panzergrenadier'' is not tedious at all .
Some time before I had contact with Schmidt and I can´t see any revisionist statements he publish an autobiographie and some other reprints of books! And I though in USA you have freedom of speech and so it isn´t understandble for me what the problem is because if you have another opinion don´t buy his books or speak with him but don´t say only revisionist or so! And if he is an revisionist it is always not a problem because he lives in this time and know some more about it than any other who don´t live there!

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