nickterry wrote:French Maclean is an expert on SS personnel files, not the Holocaust in Eastern Europe.
With this statement you are showing how little you know about certain authors.
I have MacLean's Field Men, not his Camp Men. I also have MacLean's other two books. I know what this author is capable of, and accurate estimates of mortality in either KZs or in the Holocaust is NOT his field.
I'd like to say I misspoke earlier. MacLean did not say 3.5 million (as his low number) dead in the Holocaust, he said 3.5 - 6 million in the camp system. I was somewhat surprised that no one called me to the carpet overnight...is this a function of no traffic through this thread or limited libraries on people's shelves in this 'cut and paste' computer world?
Well, now we find out that YOU can't read your sources clearly. Are you labouring under the misapprehension that all Jews died in camps? They did not; millions were shot in mass executions of which the most famous is Babi Yar, but which were repeated ca. 2-3,000 times over across both Poland and Russia.
Anyway, as I stated earlier and will expand upon here, there is no way we'll ever agree upon a number (Jews killed in the Holocaust). First of all there are no 'solid' numbers to be found. Oh some people here will quote numbers of living Jews in Europe, which are guesstimates, which are disputed by reputable authors using period numbers (Martin Gilbert's "Auschwitz & the Allies"). Then they begin to throw around other numbers of Jews killed in either the camp system or by the Einsatzgruppen...also estimates because only God himself knows the real answer but various folks here on earth believe they do as well.
Gilbert himself wrote The Atlas of the Holocaust, as well as The Holocaust, so perhaps you can consult those books before you claim that he 'disputes' the numbers. He does no such thing. He cited a wartime claim from people who didn't know the full facts.
'Various people' by the way happens to constitute circa 200-300 specialist historians who have worked since 1945 on being more precise about the information. There happen to be plenty of documents to help them on their way.
Lets try a little math experiment shall we?
Let's just use MacLeans numbers...He stated 3.5 - 6 million in the camp system and an additional 850,000 - 1.35 Million by the Einsatzgruppen (The Camp Men, The Field Men). This is just one Historian and the 'fudge factor' in his numbers alone are 3,000,000
To repeat, MacLean isn't an expert on the demographics of the camp system. The question I have for you is
a) WHAT camps is he referring to, there was the WVHA system (including Auschwitz and Majdanek) and then there was the Aktion Reinhard camp system.
b) does MacLean perchance cite outdated estimates by the likes of Kogon, writing immediately after the war.
I have already posted an information thread which contains information on mortality within specific 'normal' camps. The number of deaths in 'normal' camps,
excluding those gassed at Auschwitz on arrival, is under 1 million. Most of these deaths were of non-Jews.
viewtopic.php?t=97057Let's just use the two largest Death Camps (largest in numbers of Deaths) Auschwitz and Treblinka. The generally accepted number now is 1 to 1.6 Million for Auschwitz and 700,000 to 1-million for Treblinka...a fudge factor of 800,000 for just those two camps. If you look at any numbers, for any camp they give a range...say Dachau of 40-60,000, the higher number 50% higher than the lower. I am a math guy, and there is NO WAY you can get a accurate answer if EVERY ONE of your variables is a guess.
Nope, wrong, consult the link I gave you above about Auschwitz. The death toll at Auschwitz is known very precisely. It is about 1 million from all causes.
Treblinka, wrong again, we have hard data from the Hoefle telegram found in the past five years stating that 713,555 were 'evacuated' there by the end of 1942, leading historians to reject higher totals.
You may be a math guy, but you don't seem very aware of how historians, including demographic historians, work.
No comes another one of my problems with everyone's simple math here. They try to subtract the (guessed at) numbers of dead Jews from the (thought) known living prewar Jewish number.
Nope, wrong. Demographic calculations only give a ceiling. Historians work from the events upwards, aggregating the numbers recorded in specific transports and shooting actions. Yes, there are a host of such events whose numbers will never be precisely known, but the sum total of 60 years research indicates that the death toll is between 5 and 6 million. For a demographic catastrophe on the scale of the Holocaust, this is pretty precise.
Or can you tell me precisely how many died in the 1933 Ukrainian famine. I don't think you can, not to the same level of historical proof as is available for the Holocaust. Death tolls in the Ukrainian famine are all calculated through demographic methods, not from documents or eyewitnesses.
Most then lump it all under the catch-all label of Holocaust, laying the guilt on the SS in particular and the entire German Nation as a whole, which is also innacurate. They seem to forget that the Germans did not invent antisemitism and many Jews died at the hands of others, sometimes of their own accord and not at the behest of the Germans. If anyone has ever read "The Bravest Battle", Kurtzman, it is riddled w/first hand Jewish accounts of Polish treatment including Murder. What about "The Good Old days" by Klee...those Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukranians loved killing them Jews.... How many trains were shot up, how many factories were bombed, etc by the allies resulting in Jewish deaths? Under which heading are those numbers applied? What about Kaytn? Was this the only instance of a Russian warcrime?
Nope, wrong. Historians have long paid attention to the role of collaborators in the Holocaust, though no one disputes the central steering role of the SS. Reitlinger's book on the SS was subtitled 'the alibi of a nation'. Until Goldhagen came along, that's how they were. Goldhagen sold most books, funnily enough, in Germany. Pretty much every historian rejects Goldhagen's claims that the guilt 'lies with the entire German Nation alone'.
Now the sickest part of the whole Holocaust thing, only Jewish deaths seem to be remembered. I am not an anti-semite but what about the 2-million non-Jewish Poles that were murdered? What about all the Russian POWs? The Mentally Ill? Gypsies? Communists? Etc?
Snookie, there are plenty of existing threads debating a) Polish deaths, b) Soviet deaths, c) gypsies, d) victims of Stalinist repressions, e) German victims and on. *This* one happens to be about the Holocaust.
So kindly butt out of making crass generalisations which, sadly, make me query what exactly your motives are for intervening in a long-ongoing discussion.
To the individual who started this thread, the answer is there is no number that will be agreed upon. Take the high and low numbers and place your finger squarely in the middle...it is around there somewhere.
Nope, wrong. We have a confirmed range between 5 and 6 million. Claims lower than 5 million are not properly sourced and do not take into account 60 years of careful research. Claims higher than 6 million cannot be proven sufficiently.
Whether it's 5.1 million, 5.2 million, 5.3 million, 5.4 million, 5.5 million, 5.6 million, 5.7 million, 5.8 million or 5.9 million is irrelevant to the essential point.
- at least 5 million European Jews died in the Holocaust
If you'd like me to give you a breakdown of how the 5 to 6 million died:
2.5-3 million inside seven death camps (Auschwitz, Majdanek, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Maly Trostinets)
2-2.5 million from mass executions
0.5 million from starvation and maltreatment inside ghettos and camps.
by David Thompson on 12 Apr 2006 20:28 
