How [many] Jews were killed for real?

[michael mills]

I have found in the course of my reading that there is often confusion among historians as to what consituted the area legally within the Pale of Settlement.

I would suggest this book on the origins of the area of permitted settlement for Jews within the Russian Empire:

"Russia Gathers Her Jews : The Origins of the "Jewish question" in Russia, 1772-1825", by John Doyle Klier (DeKalb, Ill : Northern Illinois University Press, 1986).

The essential issue is that until 1917, the great majority of the Jews of the Russian Empire (excluding Congress Poland which strictly speaking was not an integral part of the Empire but a kingdom attached to it) lived in the Northwestern Krai (the Baltic States and modern Belarus) and the Southwestern Krai (modern Ukraine west of the Dnepr [excluding Galicia] and modern Moldova).

After 1917, there was a very large eastward migration of Jews out of the parts of the Northwestern and Southwestern territories that remained under Soviet sovereignty, essentially eastern Belarus and most of Ukraine west of the Dnepr except for Volhynia, such that by 1939 at least half of the Jews of the Soviet Union lived to the East of those territories, in major urban centres such as Moscow, Leningrad, Kharkov and Rostov.

The result of that large-scale population movement was that the majority of the Soviet Jews who perished under Axis occupation after June 1941 were inhabitants of the territories annexed in 1939 and 1940, and until then had been citizens of the Baltic States, of Poland or of Romania. The great majority of the Jews of the old Soviet Union (about 75%) did not fall victim to the German invasion, either because they lived in areas that never fell under Axis occupation or they were evacuated from areas that did.

[nickterry]

The great majority of the Jews of the old Soviet Union (about 75%) did not fall victim to the German invasion, either because they lived in areas that never fell under Axis occupation or they were evacuated from areas that did.

The correct percentage is two-thirds of Soviet Jews managed to avoid falling under Axis occupation.

[randwick]

in the monument of the transit camp of drancy a suburb of Paris, wich was the center for
transport to the camps, the figure is 66.00 of wich 5.600 came back to France ,
the number of 75000 seems a little bit high
only naturalised or migrants were transported , not french born jews

[lebel]

Bonsoir
In the beginning , deportees were new naturalized or migrants from eastern Europe ( the great round up of july 42 )
later on ,ALL jews of whatever nationality were "eligible" for deportation

According to S. Klarsfeld , an authority in that matter , 77000 jews (roughly 25% of french jewry ) were deported and only 3% survived ,( of which , no children , they were all gassed at arrival )

[randwick]

Thanks for the clarification , it's duly noted

[Tosun Saral]

Col. Hakki Behic Erkin, Turkish Army
He fought the Balkan Wars, WW1 and War of Turkish Indepandance. After retiring from the Army the was made the General Director of Turkish State Railways. He nationalized the railway system which was mostly in foreign hands. In the Ismet Pasha Cabinet he was the minister of Comminication. In 1940-43 he was the Turkish Ambassador to Paris. He saved 15000 Jews from the Nazis by giving them Turkish passport.

For a photo pleasde visit:
viewtopic.php?t=105327

[Topspeed]

Col. Hakki Behic Erkin, Turkish Army
He fought the Balkan Wars, WW1 and War of Turkish Indepandance. After retiring from the Army the was made the General Director of Turkish State Railways. He nationalized the railway system which was mostly in foreign hands. In the Ismet Pasha Cabinet he was the minister of Comminication. In 1940-43 he was the Turkish Ambassador to Paris. He saved 15000 Jews from the Nazis by giving them Turkish passport.

For a photo pleasde visit:
viewtopic.php?t=105327

This is good news !

Less than half percent of the finnish jews perished in the german camps. Marschal Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim said strictly to Heinrich Himmler that we in Finland don't have a problem with the jews and refused to hand them out.

Later we have been informed that some 3 000 soviets pows had 100+ jews among them which unfortunately were not treated according to Geneva rules after being exhanged to finnish related pows with the germans. There is reason to believe that many of those perished.

Do you know any stories of those 15 000 jews that got turkish passports. Did they go abroad ?

[Topspeed]

You will never know the truth, just thin in some books the count's are 5 million jews some say 6 million jews but what about all the jews killed in ghettos and in other places.

Regards.
Hans.

Then you could approach this from an other angle;

A person who is 100 % jewish and does not speak german and practises his/her religion I consider a jew. Is a person who is 1/2-1/4 from either side of his/her parents really a jew practises lutheran faith and speaks only german ? I think he is a german 100%. I mean also even if he/her also knew jiddish.

I think if one claims that 6 million jews were killed and three million germans during WW II..one should be saying closer like 5 million germans got killed and 4 million jews.

I don't know how many ethnically germans ( and poles, french, russian, danes, norwegian etc. ) were actually also killed as jews, but I bet that figure is also measured in 100 000s at least.

I may offend someone, but this detail annoys me to some extend. Not that I would not not feel deep symphaty those murdered by the nazi regime regardless of what religion, party membership or skincolour.

This warcrime has such large impact that it is really nearly beyond comprehension.

[Tosun Saral]

While Schindler could save only 100 Jews ( was filmed as Schindlers List) Turkish Ambassador Col. Behic Erkin saved 15 000. Here is story.

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:Gd ... clnk&cd=10

[Acolyte]

Here Nizkor Project essentially admits that there were a maximum of 2.5 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust:

Currently, though, unimpeachable sources are seeking to reduce this [sic] figure to 1.5 million. On mathematical grounds alone, the "symbolic figure of Six Million " should be reduced by 3.5 million. Of course, such a reduction does not lessen the [gravity of the] crime in any way, because even one victim is one too many.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniqu ... on-01.html

This Nizkor Project website is so funny. They make this claim above but nevertheless dedicate their website 'to 12 million Holocaust victims who suffered and died at the hands of Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime':

http://www.nizkor.org

The '12 million figure' is calculated by using the '6 million figure' for Jewish victims. Um, contradiction?

[simsalabim]

Here Nizkor Project essentially admits that there were a maximum of 2.5 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust:

Currently, though, unimpeachable sources are seeking to reduce this [sic] figure to 1.5 million. On mathematical grounds alone, the "symbolic figure of Six Million " should be reduced by 3.5 million. Of course, such a reduction does not lessen the [gravity of the] crime in any way, because even one victim is one too many.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniqu ... on-01.html

This Nizkor Project website is so funny. They make this claim above but nevertheless dedicate their website 'to 12 million Holocaust victims who suffered and died at the hands of Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime':

http://www.nizkor.org

The '12 million figure' is calculated by using the '6 million figure' for Jewish victims. Um, contradiction?

I think you are misquoting Nizkor.

The page quotes the IHR:

And in the Holocaust denial magazine The Journal of Historical Review:[6] :

In the view of those who believe--or cause others to believe--in the [Holocaust], mass gassings, especially of Jews, were carried out in the concentration camps of the Third Reich. Above all in Auschwitz (hence the term "Auschwitz Myth"), four million Jews were gassed. [The Nuremberg Tribunal "established" that four million PEOPLE (Jews and non-Jews) had been KILLED (by all means) at Auschwitz.]

Currently, though, unimpeachable sources are seeking to reduce this [sic] figure to 1.5 million. On mathematical grounds alone, the "symbolic figure of Six Million " should be reduced by 3.5 million. Of course, such a reduction does not lessen the [gravity of the] crime in any way, because even one victim is one too many.

The last paragraph comes from the IHR, not Nizkor.

[PeterOT]

Here Nizkor Project essentially admits that there were a maximum of 2.5 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust:

Currently, though, unimpeachable sources are seeking to reduce this [sic] figure to 1.5 million. On mathematical grounds alone, the "symbolic figure of Six Million " should be reduced by 3.5 million. Of course, such a reduction does not lessen the [gravity of the] crime in any way, because even one victim is one too many.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniqu ... on-01.html

This Nizkor Project website is so funny. They make this claim above but nevertheless dedicate their website 'to 12 million Holocaust victims who suffered and died at the hands of Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime':

http://www.nizkor.org

The '12 million figure' is calculated by using the '6 million figure' for Jewish victims. Um, contradiction?

simsalabim beat me to it. The quote you are using is from a holocaust denial paper.

I would also point out that Nikzor does not claim that 12 million died, it says 12 million suffered & died. I don't have an exact figure on those who survived the holocaust or suffered as a result of having to flee persecution, but I don't think it would be hard to find another 6 million.

I'll leave it to the moderators to determine whether or not you are jumping on the bandwagon of denial, but could you at least properly read the sources you quote.

[Andreas]

Both simsalabim and PeterOT are correct. Acolyte - you are strongly encouraged to be more careful in the future when making claims about what any particular website does or does not say.

In this case, it is clear that the joke is on you, and not on Nizkor.

Thank you.

Andreas

[Acolyte]

Both simsalabim and PeterOT are correct. Acolyte - you are strongly encouraged to be more careful in the future when making claims about what any particular website does or does not say.

In this case, it is clear that the joke is on you, and not on Nizkor.

Thank you.

Andreas

Well, the lack of quotation marks were admittedly misleading. On the other hand, I expected that the owners of the website would comment on the claims of Holocaust denials listed on that very link. So I thought the last sentence is a comment on the quotes (the very last sentence doesn't read like something a Holocaust denier would print). Now that you called my attention to that website again I find it strange that they quote claims of Holocaust deniers but don't comment on it. Not a single sentence to counter these arguments are there.

[simsalabim]

Both simsalabim and PeterOT are correct. Acolyte - you are strongly encouraged to be more careful in the future when making claims about what any particular website does or does not say.

In this case, it is clear that the joke is on you, and not on Nizkor.

Thank you.

Andreas

Well, the lack of quotation marks were admittedly misleading. On the other hand, I expected that the owners of the website would comment on the claims of Holocaust denials listed on that very link. So I thought the last sentence is a comment on the quotes (the very last sentence doesn't read like something a Holocaust denier would print). Now that you called my attention to that website again I find it strange that they quote claims of Holocaust deniers but don't comment on it. Not a single sentence to counter these arguments are there.

Read again.

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