How [many] Jews were killed for real?

[Gorque]

Hi Denying-History:

Thanks for sharing the links on the Hoefle Telegram.

[Denying-History]

Hi Denying-History:

Thanks for sharing the links on the Hoefle Telegram.

No problem.

[michael mills]

Paul Lantos wrote:

Point is, I would take every statistic with a big grain of salt.

To which Denying-History responded with

Tell that to the Korherr report... honestly, Its an estimate report from 1943 that again gives the same number as the Hofle Telegram... and its based on the estimates for 1942.

I tend to agree with Paul Lantos on this point, namely that there are no absolutely reliable statistics for the number of Jews killed at the three Globocnik camps since the German personnel running the deportation and killing operations did not make an accurate count of the victims, neither when they were loaded onto the trains nor when they were unloaded at the killing sites.

The reason why the figure given in the Korherr Report for the total number of Jews "processed" (durchgeschleust) through camps in the Generalgouvernement (1,274,166) is exactly the same as the figure given in the Hoefle Telegram for the total number of Jews arriving at ("Zugang") the four camps under the control of Globocnik (KL-Lublin, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka) is that the latter is clearly the source of the former.

That in turn explains the origin of the Hoefle Telegram; it was sent to Eichmann's office in response to a request from Korherr (who was stationed in that office for the purpose of preparing a statistical report for Himmler) for precise numbers of the Jews who had arrived at the Globocnik camps as at the end of 1942.

In his post-war testimony, Eichmann described how Korherr sat in his office in Berlin and sent out large numbers of telegrams to all SS offices involved in the deportation of Jews, asking for precise numbers of the Jews that had passed through their hands. He then prepared his report based on the answers to those telegrams.

Himmler had assigned Korherr to prepare a statistical report precisely because he was dissatisfied with the reports he had been receiving from the various SS offices, ie he must have known that those offices were not keeping an accurate record of the number of Jews loaded onto the deportation trains.

Accordingly, the Hoefle Telegram cannot be seen as one in a line of regular reports giving minutely recorded figures of the number of Jews arriving at each of the Globocnik camps, but rather as a special event, prepared in response to the pressure coming from Himmler to give accurate figures to Korherr. Since the telegram, in addition to the totals, gives figures for the numbers arriving in December 1942, it is possible that in that month the staff at each of the camps made a supreme effort to count the arriving Jews (which was not too onerous a task since the number of arrivals in that month was far lower than the number of arrivals during the preceding summer), so that they could say that they had met the requirement for accuracy.

However, the totals given in the Hoefle Telegram are most probably to be seen as guesstimates, perhaps based on the number of arriving transports, rather than on a careful head count of all arrivals. The figure that is most likely to be accurate is the number of arrivals of the Lublin Concentration Camp, 24,733; since KL-Lublin was not an extermination camp but rather a labour camp for industries under Globocnik's control, the Jews arriving there were counted and registered.

Nevertheless, the figures given in the Hoefle Telegram and quoted by Korherr in his report must be of the right order of magnitude, and hence it can be said with reasonable confidence that during 1942 around 1.2 million Jews arrived at the four camps under Globocnik's command, of which the overwhelming majority were killed by gassing on arrival.

[steve248]

As one of the joint-authors of "A New Document on the Deportation and Murder of Jews during 'Einsatz Reinhardt' 1942" published in 2001 (Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Vol. 15 No. 3 Winter 2001) that has become known as "the Hoefle Telegram", I generally stand aloof from discussions about it.
It was written 16 years ago and not a single scholarly peer-reviewed rebuttal of it.

Deniers and armchair historians struggle with it. The biggest hurdle facing anyone wishing to deny the content of the article are two documents: one, the Korherr Report established as a Nuremberg document in 1945, and the Hoefle Telegram among a mountain of other decrypted material declassified by GCHQ to UK National Archives in 1997. The latter explaining the former.

As I say, Peter Witte and I stand aloof waiting for a rebuttal.

Out of interest David Irving asked UK National Archives to forensically test the page containing the Hoefle Telegram. The page itself is just like the other 500 pages machine sewn and bound in the binder. He had to make do with a note saying GCHQ agree its provenance.

Incidentally the article is available on http://www.academia.eu for downloading - you can subscribe for free to download. Some other good articles also available.

I do disabuse Paul Lantos of his comments about the number of deported Jews on trains. In typical German efficiency each train was accompanied by a "Transportliste" in duplicate. These lists contained the identities (Names, DOB etc). There are two more decrypted radio messages involving deportation trains. On 26 March 1943 a train from Skopje/Yugoslavia with 2382 Jews bound for Sobibor; and on 5 Aug 1944 a train with 1296 Jews left Sarvar/Hungary for Auschwitz.

The late Alfred Gottwaldt spent most of life investigating deportation trains from "Greater Germany" to the East. His book gives the most precise details of the numbers involved:
http://www.amazon.de/Die-Judendeportati ... +Gottwaldt

The French historian Serge Klarsfeld wrote a similar book about Jewish deportation trains from France to Auschwitz (published in French and German) does the same:
http://www.amazon.de/Vichy-Auschwitz-Zu ... +Klarsfeld

Any holocaust library worth its name will have a copy of the huge published volume (in German) of all known German Jews deported to camps and their fate.

Naturally you can only discover this information when you do some research in archives and stop thinking the internet will provide all the information at the touch of a button. Unless of course, you are seeking those links that support half-baked theories of your own.

[Gorque]

Hi Steeve248:

Is this the same article?

http://hgs.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/3/468.full.pdf

[steve248]

Yes Gorque, the same article.

[Gorque]

Hi Steve248:

Thanks for the confirmation. It's a very good article. Have you and Peter Witte written others as well?

[steve248]

Peter Witte and I produced a book last year, "Himmler's Diary 1945".
Some of my other articles I have written can be found on www.academia.eu

Peter has not written very much in the intervening years due to ill-health.

[michael mills]

I do disabuse Paul Lantos of his comments about the number of deported Jews on trains. In typical German efficiency each train was accompanied by a "Transportliste" in duplicate. These lists contained the identities (Names, DOB etc). There are two more decrypted radio messages involving deportation trains. On 26 March 1943 a train from Skopje/Yugoslavia with 2382 Jews bound for Sobibor; and on 5 Aug 1944 a train with 1296 Jews left Sarvar/Hungary for Auschwitz.

That applied only to transports of Jews from Germany and German-occupied and Axis-allied countries to destinations in the East, both to ghettos and to camps. In those cases, records of the numbers of Jews on each transport (and sometimes their names) were kept by the German authorities at the places of origin, and also records of the numbers registered at the various destinations, except where the transportees were killed on arrival.

However, that was not the case with the transports of Jews from within the Generalgouvernement to the Globocnik extermination centres. Descriptions of such transports, eg in the report of Police Captain Wessermann who commanded the guard detachment accompanying a transport of Jews from Kolomyja to Belzec, show that the Security Police at the places of origin simply stuffed as many Jews as possible into the freight cars, without any attempt to count them. Furthermore, the conditions on arrival at the various Globocnik camps precluded any realistic counting of the arriving Jews, and none of the descriptions that I have read of those conditions refer to any organised count being made.

Accordingly, the numbers quoted in the Hoefle Telegram can at best be regarded as estimates, possibly based on a count of the number of freight cars arriving at each camp and an average number of transportees per car. However, as I wrote previously, those numbers are probably of the right order of magnitude, meaning that around 1.2 million Jews of the Generalgouvernement (including the Lemberg District annexed in August 1941) had arrived at the Globocnik camps by the end of 1942.

[Boby]

Transportlisten from Germany can be found here
http://www.statistik-des-holocaust.de/list_ger.html

[steve248]

So, if I understand you correctly there was no counting of Jewish numbers on deportation trains from the towns and villages of the Generalgouvernement to the Globocnik camps. Or at least one or several trains from Kolomyja to Belzec.

Out of interest I looked up what Yitzhak Arad says (in his "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps", Indiana Uni Press, 1987), it has its flaws but a place to start. On p. 386 he notes Several deportations from Kolomyya (sic) to Belzec:
April 3-4, 1942 5,000 victims
Sept 7, 1942 7,000 victims
Oct 11, 1942 4,000 victims

As you say, no one was counting.

Now put those Kolomyya figures next to the figures mentioned in the Hoefle telegram:
Belzec 434,508 victims
Lublin 12,761 victims
Sobibor 101,370 victims
Treblinka 713,555 victims (71355 in the telegram)
giving a nice round figure of 1,274,166

Now Michael, I do agree with you that no one was counting at Kolomyya but wouldn't you agree with me (and Hoefle, Eichmann and Korherr) that FOUR SEPARATE INDIVIDUALS at Belzec, Lublin, Sobibor and Treblinka were counting?

[michael mills]

Now Michael, I do agree with you that no one was counting at Kolomyya but wouldn't you agree with me (and Hoefle, Eichmann and Korherr) that FOUR SEPARATE INDIVIDUALS at Belzec, Lublin, Sobibor and Treblinka were counting?

Jews arriving at the Lublin Concentration Camp were most probably counted, since they had been sent to that destination for labour, Lublin not being a dedicated extermination centre in the way that Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka II were.

The situation is less clear with the three extermination camps. Descriptions of the arrival process by the small number of survivors and in post-war testimony by former camp staff paint a picture of extreme terrorisation and violence, with the victims being forced to move quickly through the various stages by whips and blows, not an orderly process conducive to accurate counting. Former Sobibor and Treblinka commandant Stangl stated that the extremely violent procedure had been developed by Wirth, because it kept the victims in a state of panic and terror and thus prevented any resistance.

As for the relatively small number of Jews listed in the Hoefle Telegram as being sent to Lublin Concentration Camp, I think there is no need to postulate unknown transports to account for them. Survivors of the transports from Bialystok District described how selections for labour were carried out at the places of origin, with the minority selected for labour being loaded into separate freight-cars from the majority destined for immediate killing at Treblinka; at a certain point those freight-cars were detached from the rest of the transport and continued to Lublin where the prisoners were taken into the concentration camp. Most probably the arrivals at Lublin toward the end of 1942 were the Jews selected for labour at the various places of origin in Bialystok District.

The statistics by Tatiana Berenstein published in Arad's book give a total of 73,620 Jews being sent to Treblinka from four collection camps in the Bialystok District between 10 November and 15 December 1942. It is most probable that the Jews listed in the Hoefle Telegram as arriving at Lublin Concentration Camp were part of that group, Berenstein being unaware of the selections that had taken place at the collection camps and of the division of the transports on the way to Treblinka, which meant that not all the Jews carried on those transports arrived at that destination.

Despite the likelihood that the figures quoted by Hoefle were not the product of an orderly and accurate counting of the arrivals, it is unlikely that they are either grossly understated or grossly exaggerated, since the staff at the three extermination camps could have arrived at a reasonably accurate estimate from the number of freight-cars that arrived and the average number of transportees in each car. Accordingly, Hoefle's figures represent a reasonable guide to the numbers of Jews killed in the three extermination camps under Globocnik's command between their opening and the end of 1942. I do not think there is any reason to doubt their order of magnitude.

[steve248]

Michael,

I have to laugh at you gall:

"Despite the likelihood that the figures quoted by Hoefle were not the product of an orderly and accurate counting of the arrivals, it is unlikely that they are either grossly understated or grossly exaggerated, since the staff at the three extermination camps could have arrived at a reasonably accurate estimate from the number of freight-cars that arrived and the average number of transportees in each car. Accordingly, Hoefle's figures represent a reasonable guide to the numbers of Jews killed in the three extermination camps under Globocnik's command between their opening and the end of 1942. I do not think there is any reason to doubt their order of magnitude."

On the one hand no one was counting, according to your statement except at Lublin, but the final total is OK.

So Lublin's 12761 is OK but not 434508 or 101370 of 713555?

These do not look like nice round numbers to me, from camps quite distant from one another. So three people must have been counting the numbers.

[michael mills]

Steve, I do not see why this is such an issue for you. I have stated repeatedly that the figures quoted by Hoefle in his telegram can be accepted correct in a general way, ie that by the end of 1942 a good 1.2 million Jews had arrived at the four camps listed in the telegram, and the overwhelming majority had been killed there. I do not see how there can be any objection to that interpretation.

[steve248]

What I was asking you to grasp is not "a good 1.2 million Jews had arrived at the four camps listed in the telegram" but 1,274,166 "listed in the telegram".
You go to an Australian supermarket and a loaf of bread is (say) 2.75 Australian dollars, you hand over a 5 dollar note and expect 2.25 in change - not 2 dollars as a "good" number.

How were the four numbers quoted in the telegram arrived at, did not give us a cause for concern. To all intents and purposes the numbers matched those quoted in the Korherr Report so the telegram was the source of the numbers. This in itself raise two more questions:

1. Scholars and historians state that Eichmann's office had nothing to do with the deportation of Polish Jews to the camps. Yet here he is involved in numbers of Polish Jews. Is this because RSHA IV B4 was still responsible for Jews and Evacuations (Junden- und Räumungsangelegenheiten)? No other RSHA IV section has been identified as responsible for Polish evacuations/deportations therefore Eichmann's IV B4 had this responsibility. Certainly devolved to local Sipo and SD forces who brought in their local Polizei (Schupo) units as manpower to fill the trains and guard them to their destination, but the Jewish specialist (Judenreferent) at each Sipo and SD office knew what to report and where to send their reports. Just as other specialist desk officers sent their reports to other section heads via Amtschef RSHA IV.

2. The numbers quoted for the four camps are simply too precise for random round-ups. Someone at each camp must have been making a tally of the victims. At which point the count occurred I cannot say.
I have heard that the Poles prefer getting precise numbers from the Polish train drivers involved. The numbers of trains go way beyond a couple of drivers and is completely unsubstantiated. I mention this in passing as just plain nonsense.

Nothing more to say other that I would like to see a reasoned published rebuttal of the numbers having gone through peer-review.