Beheadings in the Third Reich

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Post Reply
User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 977
Joined: 03 Dec 2004, 05:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Stanislav Motl on Brandenburg executions

#3856

Post by fredric » 02 Mar 2012, 08:31

Pete26 wrote:A short video in which the author of the book "Svedek z Cely Smrti", Stanislav Motl talks about Brandenburg prison executions. He mentions the blood collection done by doctors standing in front of the condemned on the guillotine bench, waiting for the head to be chopped off, and then catching the spurting blood into a bottle. Also, some of these executions were apparently attended by Nazi dignitaries, who could buy tickets to witness them. There is something that caught my attention though - Motl also talks about "medieval costumes that the executioners wore to executions", i.e white shirt, red long socks, and shoes with pointed toes curved upwards. This sounds like nonsense to me. I wonder who came up with this. Whatever Nazis were, they were not court jesters, especially the executioners.

http://oci.nova.cz/clanek/novinky/prezi ... smrti.html#
The long red socks and shoes with pointed toes were only worn by "scharfichter-elves"!
Seriously, Reich Ministry of Justice guidelines specified formal attire (a "tuxedo" with a long coat, top hat, etc.). This formal attire is traceable to its introduction by scharfrichters Groppler and Krautz and set the style for many others such as Reindel, Hehr and Reichhart. There were variations though, including a buttoned, military style tunic which was suggested by the RMJ, tried for a while and then discarded in favor of the formal coat which could be easily removed (for axe beheadings). The formal tradition continued with the advent of the fallbeil. Executions were still to be carried out as a dignified ritual. Then around 1943 as the volume of the beheadings soared and the number of scharfrichters and assistants increased, dress standards relaxed. Executions became mass-production and the rubber coats and work boots seem likely. We find references of Rottger wearing a dirty, three-quarter length coat or a "greasy leather jerkin" and being reminded that he as the "Henker aus Berlin" he should dress more formally).

Traditional, old-school scharfrichters such as Johann Reichhart maintained the formal attire. Assistants were not necessarily required to wear the formal tuxedo and not the top hats. Often they wore dark suits. Films usually get the attire wrong. Motl's comments lead me to believe he may have been embellishing a bit.

User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 977
Joined: 03 Dec 2004, 05:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Rubber coats and gloves

#3857

Post by fredric » 02 Mar 2012, 08:35

Pete26 wrote:Some time ago we discussed whether or not did executioners and their assistants wear rubber aprons and/or gloves during guillotine executions. Someone mentioned that they never came across any photographs suggesting that this is the case.
There is an authentic photo of hanging rubber coats and gloves on the table in Brandenburg prison execution room (Stanisalv Motl's "Svedek z cely Smrti" book), which means that such garments were most likely worn by the executioner's assistants, at least during the clean-up after each execution. Executioners most likely did not use these, as they only operated the guillotine and recorded the names of executed in the execution book.
HAVE NOT SEEN THIS PHOTO. CAN YOU POST IT. (THIS BOOK WOULD BE HARD TO LOCATE IN THE U.S.)
THANKS.


Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 03:19
Location: USA

Re: Stanislav Motl on Brandenburg executions

#3858

Post by Pete26 » 04 Mar 2012, 06:59

fredric wrote: Traditional, old-school scharfrichters such as Johann Reichhart maintained the formal attire. Assistants were not necessarily required to wear the formal tuxedo and not the top hats. Often they wore dark suits. Films usually get the attire wrong. Motl's comments lead me to believe he may have been embellishing a bit.
Actually, Motl expresses reservations about this medieval attire supposedly worn by the Brandenburg executioner, who is this case was Willi Roettger. Motl states that this description was given to him by Borivoj Bartonicek, who spent five months in the death cell and then had his death sentence commuted to imprisonment. He also states that Mr Bartonicek's mind was clear and he had no reason to believe he was making things up. Who knows, maybe he saw someone dressed like that while looking out the window of his cell, and wrongly assumed that it was the executioner. Sadly, Mr Bartonicek, who was apparently the last living person who spent time in a Nazi prison death cell 68 years ago waiting to be beheaded, passed away recently. So there are no more living witnesses to horrors that most of us cannot even imagine.

I would like to post the photo of the rubber coats and gloves, but I do not have a scanner.
Last edited by Pete26 on 04 Mar 2012, 07:07, edited 1 time in total.

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 03:19
Location: USA

Hair and shirt collar

#3859

Post by Pete26 » 04 Mar 2012, 07:04

When Borivoj Bartonicek, sentenced to die, first entered the death cell in Brandenburg prison, he mentions that there was a clump of cut hair and a shirt collar cut off with scissors lying on the floor. The previous occupant of the cell had his hair cut and his shirt collar cut off just prior to his execution by guillotine. The guards did not even bother to sweep the cell before shoving the new occupant in.

Is appears that the condemned were guillotined in Brandenburg prison fully dressed, and only the shirt collar was cut off prior to execution. Also, their hair was cut.

Piotr1
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 06:24
Location: Poland

Pitaval from Nazi era

#3860

Post by Piotr1 » 21 Mar 2012, 22:15

second part

Image

User avatar
andreobrecht
Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 15 Sep 2007, 02:58
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3861

Post by andreobrecht » 26 Mar 2012, 04:36

The photo on the cover of the book appears to be a fake fallbeil. It is interesting that parts of it are correctly represented (Pulley, winch, bench) while others (blade and top of sledge) are completely wrong... Could this be a photoshop of a picture of a real fallbeil where the blade was missing and was added by a person with little fallbeil knowledge? A high resolution version of the picture shows clearly that the blade is much too large and has no visible bevel. Looks like a white a sheet of paper is hanging between the uprights. There is also a "blob" of undefined material inserted in place of the top of the sledge. Does anyone know this particular fallbeil?

gordon anderson
Member
Posts: 235
Joined: 06 May 2005, 02:27
Location: Hollywood California

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3862

Post by gordon anderson » 26 Mar 2012, 07:35

andreobrecht wrote:The photo on the cover of the book appears to be a fake fallbeil. It is interesting that parts of it are correctly represented (Pulley, winch, bench) while others (blade and top of sledge) are completely wrong... Could this be a photoshop of a picture of a real fallbeil where the blade was missing and was added by a person with little fallbeil knowledge? A high resolution version of the picture shows clearly that the blade is much too large and has no visible bevel. Looks like a white a sheet of paper is hanging between the uprights. There is also a "blob" of undefined material inserted in place of the top of the sledge. Does anyone know this particular fallbeil?
Hello Andre, This is the 100% completely REAL fallbeil that relaced the first old TAll Hamburg model ( pictured on the scaffold) on your website. The long Blade is from the first old fallbeil. The new short machine and it's sledge were modified to accept this one. It was stored in pieces in Hamburg when I visited it. It was photographed / used in the film on Waljeran Wrobel and is the Fallbeil shown in that sequence. I placed pictures from this sequence onthis Forum. Gordon

User avatar
andreobrecht
Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 15 Sep 2007, 02:58
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3863

Post by andreobrecht » 26 Mar 2012, 13:30

Thanks Gordon. I had no idea such a modified Mannhardt fallbeil existed. I searched for the film photos you posted and saw the other side of the fallbeil which is a perfect match to the photo on the book cover. Mystery solved. It is definitely the same machine that was used in the film.

Did they really reuse the original blade? I looked at photos of the old machine and the blade has an angled part on the long side near the tip. This does not show up on the film still or on the book cover. The tab for mounting seems to be the same shape. A somewhat weak attachment method especially considering that the old fallbeil blade is very thin like the French blades. Any idea why they reused such a blade rather than the blade that obviously was made for the Mannhardt? Seems like going out of their way to make a bad design... Some kind of "romantic notion" or tradition among the executioners about reusing the original "tool" of the predecessors? A bit of the mystery does remain.

Piotr1
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 06:24
Location: Poland

a propos "tall" fallbeil from Hamburg

#3864

Post by Piotr1 » 26 Mar 2012, 19:23


Kilgore Trout
Member
Posts: 193
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 21:41

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3865

Post by Kilgore Trout » 26 Mar 2012, 19:39

I am VERY late to this debate. I only wonder WHAT it has to do with the category "Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes"? To my understanding, the executed had all been declared guilty of some serious offense to German law by a competent court. I am unaware of any foreign military personnel being executed in such a way by the German government at any time, much less during WWII. It therefore would seem equally justifiable to place any example of someone being executed in this same "bag."

Piotr1
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 16 Sep 2007, 06:24
Location: Poland

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3866

Post by Piotr1 » 26 Mar 2012, 20:25

Kilgore Trout wrote:I am VERY late to this debate. I only wonder WHAT it has to do with the category "Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes"? To my understanding, the executed had all been declared guilty of some serious offense to German law by a . I am unaware of any foreign military personnel being executed in such a way by the German government at any time, much less during WWII. It therefore would seem equally justifiable to place any example of someone being executed in this same "bag."
"O sancta simplicitas" /Jan Hus/:cry: :cry: :cry: :? 8O :(
Guilty to German nazi law doesn't mean guilty

competent court- man:are you joking?

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3867

Post by history1 » 26 Mar 2012, 21:36

Kilgore Trout wrote:[...] the executed had all been declared guilty of some serious offense to German law by a competent court. [...]
8O

User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 977
Joined: 03 Dec 2004, 05:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3868

Post by fredric » 26 Mar 2012, 23:33

Kilgore Trout wrote:I am VERY late to this debate. I only wonder WHAT it has to do with the category "Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes"? To my understanding, the executed had all been declared guilty of some serious offense to German law by a competent court. I am unaware of any foreign military personnel being executed in such a way by the German government at any time, much less during WWII. It therefore would seem equally justifiable to place any example of someone being executed in this same "bag."
I recommend that you read Ingo Muller's book "Hitler's Justice...the Courts of the Third Reich". It may change your feeling that the RMJ Courts during the Reich were "competent". Muller's book documents the moral degradation and perversion of justice of the Nazi judicial system. The NY Times Book Review of this landmark work says Muller "destroys one pious myth to be found in postwar legal literature --- the judges never wavered from the positivistic tradition of German law and did no more than apply existing codes." The Nazi courts, especially its "Peoples' Court" were incompetent. As the War progressed, they became the personification of evil.

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 03:19
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3869

Post by Pete26 » 27 Mar 2012, 03:15

There is an interesting chapter in Stanislav Motl's book "Svedek z Cely Smrti". The title of the chapter is "Kati v Talarech" (Executioners in Robes). Obviously, these are the judges of various German courts who were simply Hitler's henchmen and carried out the criminal policies of the Reich by imposing death sentences for ridiculous infractions, real or imagined, such as sentencing someone to death for high treason if he insulted the Fuhrer by drawing some caricature of him on some wall. There were at least 70 "crimes" punishable by death and of course, those "crimes" could be twisted into indictments so heinous, that a death sentence was virtually guaranteed. If you read the official indictment of the Scholl siblings and Christoph Probst, it reads as if these students started a bloody revolution and destroyed the morale, as well as fighting ability of German Wehrmacht. A 19 year old Czech cyclist Vladimir Vojtechovsky was beheaded in Pankrac prison in November of 1944 because he mentioned among some friends that it was too bad that the July 1944 assassination attempt on Hitler did not succeed. The official death sentence reads as " Expressing approval of the assassination attempt on the Fuhrer", which was of course equivalent to high treason.

It is important to note that Hitler, as far back as 23 July 1934, had proclaimed himself the "highest judge of the German nation." This meant that Hitler had the right to change any sentence handed down by the courts, at his will. That he exercised this self proclaimed right is evident for example from imposing a sentence of death on American woman Mildred Harnack Fish who was sentenced by German courts to a prison term for her anti-Nazi activities. Hitler simply did not like the sentence, so he changed it to death sentence by ordering a new "trial" with a predetermined outcome.

Of importance is also the fact that systematic liquidation of Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, mentally retarded, and other undesirables did not fall under jurisdiction of any of the German courts under the Nazi Ministry of Justice. This systematic mass murder was simply ordered by Hitler and his inner circle henchmen and carried out.

It is not that German jurists were incompetent judges as such. Most of them had real law degrees and prior experience on the bench. It is just that they were ruthless careerists and chose to serve the criminal regime that made a mockery of anything resembling a justice system. All of them had to swear personal loyalty to the Fuhrer before being appointed to the bench. And it is the Fuhrer's guidelines that they closely followed in handing down the sentences - ruthless elimination of any opposition to the regime, real or imagined.


So much for "competent Nazi courts."
Last edited by Pete26 on 27 Mar 2012, 04:47, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
andreobrecht
Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 15 Sep 2007, 02:58
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3870

Post by andreobrecht » 27 Mar 2012, 03:54

I only wonder WHAT it has to do with the category "Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes"?
The subject has come up several times before in the 250 plus pages of this thread...
I hope that your view stems from mere ignorance of the crimes committed by the Nazis under disguise of justice. A great number of the people beheaded in Germany, Austria, Poland and Czechoslovakia were found guilty under laws that were fundamentally unjust and evil. The issuance and application of those laws themselves qualifies as a War Crime (War Crimes are any crimes committed in time of war, not only those committed against enemy combatants).

One example of such law is the racial purity law that caused people to be executed for having relations with Jews. Another is the law that applied the death penalty to people that helped Jews hide from Nazi persecutors. These are among dozens of laws that applied the death penalty to totally innocent people for imaginary "crimes".

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”