Beheadings in the Third Reich

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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htk
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3886

Post by htk » 30 Mar 2012, 15:03

hi

Now back to the subject...The Nazi justice system... Should it be judged by the few guilty people that it happened to sentence properly but by how many truly innocent people it killed? The fact that deserters and conscience objectors were executed in huge numbers and could be borderline justifiable based on the fact that the Allies shot a small number of deserters during WWI is not a valid argument for dismissing the rest of the facts.

Innocent people : well they were NOT, at least by german law which was valid at that time
deserters: i think the number is not important but the reasoning behind it. In both cases soldiers were shot by their government
for deserting (still in some countries a capital crime) for reasons now considered not a reason to execute a person. In both cases
the present day governments are being difficult to give a pardon.

Grootendorst
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3887

Post by Grootendorst » 30 Mar 2012, 17:06

Sorry, the German government in the nighteens (after the reunification), clearly declared all (read all) sentences from the Volksgerichtshof illegal. This because the fundament of this judical system was rot, rotten and so on: it was illegal by it's foundation in the thirtees. There is no person with any knowledge of this subject that wil state that the Volkgerichtshof was a normal court with normal laws and so on. It was criminal, whatever other countries have done in the past, THIS was criminal and THIS is our topic.
It's always interesting to tell my students that a lot more people were beheaded in the Third Reich than in the times of the Comite de Salut Public, French Revolution-time.

Greetings and let's return to our topic, how people were killed by a machine, operated by humans.

Mark Grootendorst
former history teacher


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JTG
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3888

Post by JTG » 30 Mar 2012, 21:58

I think Mark means Nineties (1990s) -

In all other respects, the only justified (in legal terms) executions, by whatever means, can surely only be held to be those enacted for crimes which would have incurred that penalty PRIOR to the Nazi Regime, whether in wartime or peace..

The mis-appropriation of the Criminal Justice system is only in parallel to the mis-appropriation of the Internment system which resulted in the outcome we all know too well.

In studying this, admittedly fascinatingly gruesome, topic, we do no more than explore the same dark depths of life and death in the Third Reich as in the Camps.

Should anyone have - I hesitate to say it, but I will - an axe to grind over other Mores, there are lobby groups actively fighting to restore the honour of those who suffered the ultimate penalty, e.g.:


http://www.shotatdawn.info/

They do, and have done, make a difference and perhaps energies would be better put to use there?

My very own opinion, no names no pack drill!

John

Kilgore Trout
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3889

Post by Kilgore Trout » 31 Mar 2012, 02:08

Shortly after die Reichstag Brand, the Nazi government legally presented and had passed in the Reichstag an Enabling Act which allowed it to suspend the German consitution and rule by decree. I don't believe it ever rescinded the Act, which meant that, legally, all action and legislation it took from the date of enactment was legitimate. It was, again, not the first, nor last, nor even most recent government to present and pass such legislation.
E.g.; Canada in 1917 passed the War Measures Act, which allowed the government, upon declaration of the Act, to suspend many civil liberties. Other than limited use of the Act during WWI, it was also decreed in October 1970 in reaction to various terrorist actions by the Front de Liberation Quebec. It was later replaced by a somewhat less draconian Emergency Powers Act. The U.S. Patriot Act passed in 2002 is quite similar. Many people believed and believe that these laws were in violation of the constitutions of the respective nations and, hence, of no force or effect. However, at least with respect to Canada, the E.P.A. IS legitimate because the constitution allows for "such reasonable limits prescribed by law..."
The declaration of the German Reichstag in the 1990's is pure pap for public consumption. The actions of the Nazi government were legitimate by the laws in existence at the time. In allowing itself to rule by decree, everything it henceforth did was legal, irrespective of how people felt about it at the time or subsequently. Germany had just re-unified, and was eager to bring West and East together quickly and dramatically. What better way to do this than to demonise yesterday and distract the attention of the citizens of the West, who were worried about the criiminal activities of the Stasi and VoPos, and the citizens of the East, who were worried about the inherent evils of capitalism?
Do not forget that Germany is a nation that does NOT enjoy freedom of expression, thought, belief, or opinion. It is a crime there to possess a copy of Mein Kampf, just as it was a crime in the England of Henry VII to possess an English-language Bible.
You might as well debate and discuss how many people were murdered by the machine called the atomic bomb, and berate the country that employed it. Or the electric chair, or shooting, or hanging. Or you could go back to Enschede, Netherlands in 1626 and debate the use of that machine called a shovel to bury alive 6 women who committed the crime of being Catholic.

David Thompson
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3890

Post by David Thompson » 31 Mar 2012, 02:56

The subject being discussed here is beheadings in the Third Reich. Please stay on it.

We have open threads on Nazi law, and since the texts are given, our readers can make up their own minds about them. For a collection of Nazi laws generally, see:

Nazi Totalitarian Laws
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63480

To evaluate their legality, see the Constitution of the Weimar Republic at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 15#p570715

For President's von Hindenburg's decree, and an assortment of early "enabling laws" passed by the Reichstag following the mass arrests of opposition party members pursuant to von Hindenburg's decree, see:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 72#p571272
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 51#p571151
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 77#p571277
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 78#p571278
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 80#p571280

Other totaliarian laws follow those posts for several pages.

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Der Vollstrecker
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3891

Post by Der Vollstrecker » 30 Apr 2012, 04:45

It's been quiet here, my friends. For a change, here is a little video (Hollywood sends his regards):

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svenga
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3892

Post by svenga » 01 May 2012, 20:45

Der Vollstrecker,

Fantastic video and a great credit to you with your replica! i studied your model for many hours whilst making my first mannhardt.

As i type i am currently ordering supplies to begin construction of a 1/6 Tegal, watch this space.

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Der Vollstrecker
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3893

Post by Der Vollstrecker » 02 May 2012, 03:49

svenga,
I am glad that my model has inspired you, and my compliments to you and your model! Establish a quality model from Tegel guillotine will be no easy task (the subtleties in the release mechanism, demanding production of wire winch and many others). For my hybrid model I took several months and realized even big changes. And I left a certain aesthetics in mind. I wish you much success and fun with the construction. Hopefully, you will then present the result for us.

Piotr1
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The saxonian "scharfrichters"

#3894

Post by Piotr1 » 06 May 2012, 22:05


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Der Vollstrecker
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3895

Post by Der Vollstrecker » 20 May 2012, 15:05

Here is a simple sketch of the release mechanism with two springs, I have realized. When pulling the sledge up (1), the support pin moves to the right (2). A relatively weak spiral spring brings the pin effortlessly back into its original position. A pivotable part of the pin (3) is made ​​so that the retraction of the pin has no influence on the release rod (4). The trigger bar is using a strong torsional spring (right) held in the high position. This construction allows that it is much less force is needed to attach the carriage to the tripping mechanism. It also reduces mechanical wear and protects the winch.
Image

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3896

Post by Paul53 » 23 May 2012, 17:59

Hello all,it has been quite some time since I last posted due to various sorts of private trouble. A lot of new names, and a discussion that is familiar.
I will give factual translated info about the lives and personalities of the various nazi Scharfrichtern,as promised some time ago.However ,I can still say nothing about the frequency of future postings.I`ll do my best to make regular contributions.

The info is from the work of Matthias Blazek:Scharfrichter in Preußen und im Deutschen Reich 1866-1945.


Alwin Engelhardt 1875-1940.

Executioner Engelhardt,Kleine Schulstraße 30/31 In Magdeburg,was in Prussia`s legal service from 1900 until his resignment in 1906-and for a short period from 1933 until 1936.Engelhardt, born on may 17th 1875 in Nordhausen,did in all probability not come from a traditional executioners family ,as was also the case with his successor,Carl Gröpler.

In the year 1900 Engelhardt, who was a stepson and assistant of executioner Wilhelm Reindel from Osterburg (who owned a restaurant)and with whom E. carried out a few executions,passed the executioners exam together with Lorenz Schwietz and was officially appointed State Executioner ,as was stated in a message from the State Attourney in Naumburg to the Prussian Ministry of justice from july 13th 1900.

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3897

Post by Paul53 » 23 May 2012, 23:16

In the message send to the Royal State Attourney dated febr. 10th 1901, Engelhardt requested to be given the privilege of executing the Death Sentence" I already performed some executions as assistant to the executioner Wilhelm Reindel ,with the machine,to the satisfaction of the StATE Representatives,notably the last one in Kölln/an der Rhein ,to the stoker Paul Wiegand "(Wiegand was executed on august 18th 1900, in the yard of Kölln correctional facility with the guillotine.

As a lead the contract that was made up in Celle on march 3rth for Friedrich Reindel and his son Wilhelm Reindel and in which the alterations were marked in red, served for Engelhardt. " Celle , september 1901" .Engelhardt undersigned the paper on october 4th 1901. Fee was established within the county of Hannover to be 300 Mark.In the case of multiple executions , for every execution 50 Mark was to be paid.

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wm
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3898

Post by wm » 24 May 2012, 08:19

If I'm not mistaken 300 Mark is 1500 in today's dollars.
After 18 executions he should be able to buy the newest ride on the market - the 1900 Benz Duc Vis-a-Vis Victoria and burn rubber with its 6 horsepower engine...

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3899

Post by Paul53 » 24 May 2012, 08:54

It was a well-paid profession,especially under nazi rule.

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3900

Post by Paul53 » 24 May 2012, 14:16

The First State attourny with the Royal County Court in Flensburg testified to Engelhardts skills on july 5th 1901 with the following phrases:"I attest to the fact that the officially installed executioner, Alwin Engelhardt from Magdeburg was assistant of the the executioner Wilhelm Reindel ,also from Magdeburg,also his stepfather,in the execution of worker Johann Deppe from Hamburg on december 8th who was sentenced to death from murder by the Flensburg court.Executioner Engelhardt showed skill and cleverness , with the construction of the execution block(clearly a Handbeil execution) and the bench and behaved in a most serious and stately way during the following execution"

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