Lynching of Luftwaffe airmen by British mobs

[Peter]

Hi, I am new to this forum and came across this thread during some research.

Regarding a comment posted by Pete regarding Oberleutnant Robert Zehbe (actually it was Robert Grehbe) being beaten to death by an angry London mob, I am afraid this isn't strictly true and pete and I believe you are mis-informed. Robert Grehbe had been attacked on his raiding flight over the English Channel by fighter aircraft and his Dornier was damaged in this conflict. Two of his crew bailed out over The Crystal Palace area of London, Robert Grehbe was wounded in this initial action and his co-pilot killed. His damaged plane continued over London when, at 15,000 ft over Central London, he encountered a Hurricane flown by fighter pilot Ray Holme out of RAF Hendon who attacked his aircraft. Ray Holme had already used all his ammo in previous skirmishes on this sortee and decided to ram the bomber mid-fuslage. The tail section was cut from his Dornier, which plummeted to earth and embedded itself outside Victoria Station. Ray Holme bailed out and his Hurricane crashed in Buckingham Palace Road. Robert Grehbe bailed out and his damaged parachute drifted him across the Thames through Vauxhall and over the cricket pitch at the Oval were it snagged on a telegraph pole, leaving him dangling just off the ground. Yes, an angry crowd did gather, punches and blows were thrown as Robert Grehbe pleaded to the angry crowd but very quickly a military guard unit swiftly arrived to take him away. He was taken across the cricket field in a military ambulance to the military hospital at Millbank but died the following morning due to the injuries he received during the initial fighter plane attack. He is buried at Cane Hill cemetery. The reason I know this? My mother was present at that moment in time. She is to this date the sole surviving witness to this and has appeared on several TV shows recounting this sad event. It was 5.15pm on Sunday 15th September 1940 and she was 14 years of age. She remembers quite clearly and with great sadness and sorrow his pleas for clemency and his mortally wounded body hanging from his parachute harness. Many years later my mother has met up with Robert Grahbe's daughter and shared this sad moment with great sorrow between themselves. I have also met Ray Holme, the Hurricane Pilot who is since deceased, and I was present when the remains of his Hurricane were exhumed in 2004 in an archeological dig. The tailplane of the Dornier can be seen at the RAF Museum at Hendon along with brief black and white footage of the bomber plummeting to the earth. These facts have been substantailly researched by a member of my family with help from the RAF, The Imperial war Museum and the Luftwaffe all of which were very helpful in aiding his research. So I'm sorry to say Pete, although I dare say that some downed Luftwaffe pilots were attacked by hostile civilians, I'm afraid your facts are not strictly true in this instance.

Your comments are interesting however they are contradicted by the German records

Nachname: Zehbe
Vorname: Robert
Dienstgrad: Oberleutnant
Geburtsdatum: 09.12.1913
Geburtsort: Kiel
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 16.09.1940
Todes-/Vermisstenort: nicht verzeichnet

Robert Zehbe ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in
Brookwood Military Cemetery.
Endgrablage: Block VI
Reihe L
Grab 4

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Peter,

Apart from the name, where do the German records contradict the story? The dates conform. The German records just seem less well informed in detail.

Cheers,

Sid.

[bilboleslie]

Isnt that the reason why we still discuss what REALLY happened?? We cant be sure what is true or what is a myth.

Wrong. We are completely able to separate fact from myth, depending on how willing we are to research the subject impartially, provide documentary evidence and consult a variety of historical sources.

Thats because the winning side can cover the truth and create myths.

Wrong again. The whole "it's a conspiracy theory/cover up" is just an method to proclaim one's position correct when one is unwilling or unable to rely on scholarship instead of speculation.

This is an old thread, which I am finding fascinating. I'm a writer, working on an article about the execution of downed airmen in Austria in early 1945. (My previous articles have appeared in Jul-Aug 2012 World at War magazine, and in Jan-Feb 2013 issue of the same magazine.)

In this case, I do believe that the best scholarship may not be able to find the truth. The victors can, and do, suppress or destroy sensitive documents as they wish. The losers cannot. Their files are generally available for plunder and review. Case in point: Raoul Wallenberg. We may never know the truth. Heck, it took decades to get to the truth of the Katyn massacre.

We do know that there were public utterances by German officials declaring that downed airmen could be executed with impunity by Austrian and German locals. We do know that no such utterances were made by British officials. Were downed German pilots summarily executed by civilians? Occasionally? Frequently? As a pattern? I don't think that we will ever know, despite the best study of available resources. IMHO. I wouldn't call it a conspiracy, but a pattern and practice of controlling information during WWII. We did it, the Brits did it. Everyone did it.

But would love to include references to execution of fallen German aviators in my article, if they exist.

I have a Freedom of information request pending regarding the Austrian incident that I am writing about.

Fascinating thread. Thanks to all who participated in this. I'll keep reading. I'm not done with this thread yet.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Bilboleslie,

You seem to be trotting out the old fiction about the victors writing the history. This has never been true. The very first military historian, Thucydides, was a defeated general of a defeated state. The Austro-Hungarian official history of WWI is massive, even though it was entirely written after that state had already broken up. There are more Waffen-SS divisional histories in English alone than there are English language histories of British divisions, etc., etc.

You write that it took decades to get to the truth of the Katyn massacre. No. The Germans allowed enough neutrals to inspect the site at the time for the truth to be known and widely publicized in continental Europe even during the war. The problem was that the Western Allied working assumption was that Nazi records were inherently unreliable and they had no access to the scene themselves. Furthermore, the truth you appear to be talking about emerging decades later was as a result of access to Soviet archives, which also tends to undermine the proposition that ".....victors can, and do, suppress or destroy sensitive documents as they wish." In the Katyn case they clearly did not destroy all documentary trace. The same is true of allegations against the British during the Mau Mau in the 1950s. These are emerging from British, not Kenyan, archives. A Royal Marine has just been convicted of murdering a wounded Afghan from entirely British sources, etc., etc. I have seen the wartime Slovak military archives. Because they were closed during the Communist period, they were never weeded out and have survived in minute detail. I have been told the Romanian archives over 1941-44 have also survived in detail for much the same reason.

I think you point out a real potential problem, but are too sweeping.

Good luck with the FOI request.

Cheers,

Sid.

[PF]

Postscript:
Lynching of US Airmen in Austria 1945
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... 529&df=all&
http://teunispats.net/macr-12109.htm
http://rascal2.websitetoolbox.com/post/ ... t+stricker

[Panzermahn]

The problem was that the Western Allied working assumption was that Nazi records were inherently unreliable and they had no access to the scene themselves. Furthermore, the truth you appear to be talking about emerging decades later was as a result of access to Soviet archives, which also tends to undermine the proposition that ".....victors can, and do, suppress or destroy sensitive documents as they wish." In the Katyn case they clearly did not destroy all documentary trace.

This is very true when it comes to the records of the Wehrmachtuntersuchungstelle (Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau) which the only study in English was the pioneering work done by Dr. Alfred de Zayas back in the 1980s. When a documentary series about this work (based on Dr. de Zaya's book) came out in Germany, the Soviets loudly proclaim that it is all the work of fascist propaganda.

But would love to include references to execution of fallen German aviators in my article, if they exist.

Hi Bilboleslie,

The Wehrmacht War Crimes bureau documented cases of civilian lynching of downed German airmen in France in 1940 as well as the murder of German airmen who bailed out in Eastern Front by the NKVD (some of their remains were found in NKVD prisons in Lvov after the Soviets retreated and were corrobrated by testimonies of Ukranian medical orderlies who treated them)

It would be interesting to know to find out if there are any accusations of lynching of downed German airmen that happened in Western European countries (Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, Scandinavia etc.)

[richardjoyce]

Sid richard joyce here new member !

my dad took a cutting out of sunday times in early seventies said it it was his brother albert joyce (mm)who was in the duke of cornwalls at the time who was on the beach and who shot the crew of the downde dornier,,he was a bren gunner. i still have the clippin and was trying to send it to alberts som martin who still lives in england it is called " the secret of east wittering" tides every so often reveal the bomber and bring back the memories.
Albert was threatened by an intelligence officer who came up beach on a motorbike and told to stop shooting, albert told him if he didnt shut up he would put one in him as well !

i9 have the clipping and name of times reportter and my fathers description of the event. it should be published for the record i feel !

i found this site by accident but i am glad i did

get in touch please sid !

best regards

richard joyce

[email protected]

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Richard,

Why not stick it up here?

Cheers,

Sid.

[David Thompson]

A off-topic post from little grey rabbit, commenting on present-day politics, was removed pursuant to forum rules - DT.

[bilboleslie]

The Wehrmacht War Crimes bureau documented cases of civilian lynching of downed German airmen in France in 1940 as well as the murder of German airmen who bailed out in Eastern Front by the NKVD (some of their remains were found in NKVD prisons in Lvov after the Soviets retreated and were corrobrated by testimonies of Ukranian medical orderlies who treated them)

Can you please provide a source for this reference, so that I can follow up? Are the findings of the "Wehrmacht War Crimes bureau" published, or available online?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi bilboleslie,

Yup. There is a book on the subject: https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Sear ... &kn=&isbn=

Cheers,

Sid

[bilboleslie]

Much obliged. Bought one, $22 plus shipping.

[bilboleslie]

Hi bilboleslie,

Yup. There is a book on the subject: https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Sear ... &kn=&isbn=

Cheers,

Sid

I bought the book. Mildly interesting, but there is nothing there about the killing of German pilots in England on the ground. A few little references to the killing of downed pilots by French, Russian or other allies. But an interesting read. Thanks for the suggestion, not sorry that I bought it.

[bilboleslie]

Zehbe was apparently badly injured when he was shot down. Yes, he was beaten, but it is unclear whether
he would have died anyway as a result of his combat injuries.

Hi

this is a part of a thread I started back in January

On 20 May 1940 a Messerschmitt Bf110 of 9 Staffel Zerstorergeschwader 26 was shot down by French fighters near Luchy, France. Its pilot, Uffz Wilhelm Ross (born 27 Jan 1917 at Duisburg) and gunner both baled out, the gunner landed injured and both were captured by French soldiers and civilians. The Pilot was pushed around a little and then shot in the head and killed.

On 26 Aug 1940 a Heinkel He111 of 4 Staffel, Kampfgeschwader 55 based at Chartres in France was shot down by RAF fighters and was crash landed by its wounded pilot Leutnant Albert Metzger on the beach at East Wittering in Sussex. Metzger couldnt get out of the bomber due to wounds but his crew Uffz. Rudolf Schandner (Observer), Fw. Julius Urhahn (Flight Mechanic), Uffz. Rudi Paas (Radio Operator) and Flgr. Rudolf Fessel (Gunner) climbed out to surrender to A Company, 2nd Battalion, Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry. They were all shot dead on the beach.

On 15 Sep 40 a Dornier Do17Z of 1 Staffel, Kampfgeschwader 76 was shot down over London, it crashed on Victoria Station after some of the crew baled out. Oberleutnant Robert Zehbe (born 9 Dec 1913 Kiel) landed by parachute in Kennington, London. He was captured and beaten to death by a mob of civilians.



Pete

[Ponury]

The Germans had a breakthrough with everyone. 50 killed aviators after escaping from the Jerieniec camp in Sagan (Żagań) 1944, the famous "Great Escape". What did they do? Because they dared to escape?