Nazi gas chambers

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Post Reply
User avatar
Mr Holmes
Member
Posts: 1009
Joined: 30 Jun 2005, 13:14
Location: Australia
Contact:

#196

Post by Mr Holmes » 23 Apr 2007, 15:40

In part, it seems that time also plays a role in reducing the chances of this Prussian Blue effect:
Relating this to the gas chambers at Auschwitz, the small
amounts of prussian blue in extermination facilities can be easily
explained. According to the testimonies of Hans Stark {14},
Auschwitz Commandant Rudolph Ho"ss {15}, and former inmate
Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier {16}, it would take around one
half hour to complete the gassing process and begin ventilation of
the chamber.

Based on this testimony, it would seem reasonable that very
little prussian blue would accrete on the walls of homicidal gas
chambers, given the very slow rate of formation and the very short
gassing times at Auschwitz. Thirty minutes is not enough to time
to produce much [Fe(CN)6]-4, as this reaction takes many hours.
(Source: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... yanide.002 )

Pressac, cited in the above URL, has this to write:
The contact time for the hydrocyanic acid with
the walls of the homicidal gas chambers never exceeded about
ten minutes per day at a temperature below 30 degrees Celsius.
(same source as above)

However, the co-authors (Harmon and Stein) do not seem entirely sure (hence my bold emphasis). It would seem that on its own, due to the time periods allocated the Prussian Blue effect would ebb; hosing down probably contributed greatly.

Indeed, with the destruction of all the Kremas, save one, it is posited that rain has in all probability eroded the physical blue evidence even further. A bit too technical for me, but this is what is written (same source):
Would rain be of the correct pH to dissolve prussian blue? Based
upon a study of acid rain {22} in Northern Europe, the pH of
rainfall steadily drops from about 5.8 to 5.0 over a twenty year
period (1955 - 1975). An average pH level for the past fifty years
could then be very roughly estimated at 5.4 units. Given that
prussian blue begins to dissolve at a pH of 4.0, and that any
prussian blue on Krema II, III, IV, V has been exposed to this rain
for almost fifty years, it is surprising that any such traces remain
at all.
It is unfortunate that the two co-authors chose only to analyse the lack of Prussian Blue in the homicidal gas chambers from the perspective of time (ie. the 20 mins) only and not on any other factors such as the hosing down of the corpses as Mr Thompson pointed. The only reference to such matters apears in the conclusion wherein it is stated:
Prussian blue is a sparingly soluble salt with the chemical
formula Fe4[Fe(CN6)]3. It forms rather slowly, and is quite
insoluble at acidic pH. It will dissolve readily at pH of 6.0 or
above. Other components formed during prussian blue formation
would be soluble and be washed away almost if not completely in a
short time.
A more wholistic round-up of this theme would have been very much appreciated since the writing style in this particular document is easier to understand than Pressac's.

User avatar
Mr Holmes
Member
Posts: 1009
Joined: 30 Jun 2005, 13:14
Location: Australia
Contact:

#197

Post by Mr Holmes » 23 Apr 2007, 15:57

David Thompson wrote:Zyklon-B was not the only killing agent used in homicidal gassings. The euthanasia program (Aktion T-4) and the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka used carbon monoxide gas rather than Zyklon-B.
I'm sorry, my mistake, I meant Auschwitz in particular (guess I had better triple proof-read my posts next time).
Hydrocyanic acid and prussic acid are two names for the same thing -- you can see the various synonyms for the substance in the chart on the right hand side of this Wikipedia entry for hydrogen cyanide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_cyanide

Zyklon-B was the commercial name for hydrogen cyanide/ hydrocyanic acid/ prussic acid manufactured with an added irritant -- Bromessigester/ bromacetic ester. The purpose of the irritant was to provide a physical warning that prussic acid was being used. The irritant caused people immediately around the gas to start coughing if they weren't wearing a gas mask. The manufacturer's idea was that the irritant would prevent accidental deaths from persons unknowingly inhaling the gas, and make it safer to use.
I see. Again, thank you for clearing those issues for me. I saw the terms employed interchangably and thought that two chemicals were being referred to, or at least that one was a derivative of the other.
As I understand it, prussian blue is a particular color that characterizes a stain which forms in and on the walls of some structures which have been exposed to prussic acid gas. The walls might be made of brick and mortar, concrete, stucco, sheetrock, etc.

I have not seen any studies analyzing how and under what conditions the prussian blue stains appear -- how much of a concentration of prussic acid gas is necessary for the stains to form, whether the stains form more or less readily in some types of wall building materials than others, whether prolonged exposure to the gas is necessary for the stains to appear, whether temperature has some part in the staining, and similar issues. In other words, there's no established control data for the staining effect. As a result, I don't have any scientific basis for answering your questions about it.
That's fair enough, Sir. I've imposed upon you for far too long and nor would I want of you to find out everything for me. I'll see if there is a way that maybe we can find something by way of scientific experimentation (ie. I have someone in mind to ask) on this particular issue.
You can see a lot of discussion and speculation, supported by little or no data, at:
I will indeed read through all the threads supplied.


User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#198

Post by bf109 emil » 07 Aug 2009, 02:08

Question...when my daughter was living in Idar-Oberstein Germany, she traveled to Poland and took a tour of Auschwitz-Birkenau....I assume this has taken place by other members here and likewise have taken the same tour...while she was touring the crematorium that where destroyed by Sonderkommandos (hope i used the right term) in late 1944 she proceeded, to take a few pieces of broken brick from this site, trying to remain not obvious...Yes i know it is wrong and I gave her heck...regardless, the girl whom was touring them or guiding saw this and instead of asking to return these pieces and not decimate a place of death/crematorium, she instead gave my daughter 2 complete bricks with the words...take so as to never forget...she packed these back to Germany, shipped to her husbands new base at Fort Lewis and gave to me...why, i presume because of my passion for WW2...these I have wrapped in newsprint in my dresser and still uncertain if they are legal to hold...The one thing it does though instead of my viewing as a piece of history or an old artifact, the sight of these is almost ghoulish and the thought that they once transferred smoke from corpses shortly alive prior...makes me wish they where never given nor myself having, but out of respect for what they are, neither can they just be tossed aside...

Any Suggestions as to what or should become of these would be helpful...

Thanks

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#199

Post by David Thompson » 07 Aug 2009, 02:18

I suggest a museum, where a number of folks can see the the pieces of broken, stained brick - perhaps the USHMM.

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#200

Post by bf109 emil » 07 Aug 2009, 02:36

David i thought of this also, but to be honest having someone view these, but knowing myself these bricks represent more then say a striped uniform or star of David to be shown, but along the lines to my thinking as a decimated article from a burial ground and along this symbolic gesture, turning over to a museum might rid me of having these but do little for myself knowing these are now a museum exhibit as opposed to paying respect and there rightful place...grrrr I am still peeved at my daughter, had they been left, over the next thousand years they'd have gone or deteriorated as was destined, but to display seems wrong or send to an exhibit, to term bluntly, not right or just.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#201

Post by David Thompson » 07 Aug 2009, 02:46

bf109 emil -- I understand. To me, it seems as though it would be unlucky to keep them -- it might offend the spirits of the place (the genus loci). Perhaps as an alternative solution the fragments might be returned to the site, either in person or by mail.

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#202

Post by bf109 emil » 07 Aug 2009, 04:31

David wrote
To me, it seems as though it would be unlucky to keep them -- it might offend the spirits of the place (the genus loci).
I too have thought the same as scene by my daughter as a trophy or artifact, me myself have scene these at disturbing the dead or resting place of those that passed up it's flue and thus seem more eerie or haunting then a reminder or relic...

PeterOT
Member
Posts: 445
Joined: 07 Sep 2006, 10:57
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#203

Post by PeterOT » 07 Aug 2009, 12:26

bf109 emil wrote:Question...when my daughter was living in Idar-Oberstein Germany, she traveled to Poland and took a tour of Auschwitz-Birkenau....I assume this has taken place by other members here and likewise have taken the same tour...while she was touring the crematorium that where destroyed by Sonderkommandos (hope i used the right term) in late 1944 she proceeded, to take a few pieces of broken brick from this site, trying to remain not obvious...Yes i know it is wrong and I gave her heck...regardless, the girl whom was touring them or guiding saw this and instead of asking to return these pieces and not decimate a place of death/crematorium, she instead gave my daughter 2 complete bricks with the words...take so as to never forget...she packed these back to Germany, shipped to her husbands new base at Fort Lewis and gave to me...why, i presume because of my passion for WW2...these I have wrapped in newsprint in my dresser and still uncertain if they are legal to hold...The one thing it does though instead of my viewing as a piece of history or an old artifact, the sight of these is almost ghoulish and the thought that they once transferred smoke from corpses shortly alive prior...makes me wish they where never given nor myself having, but out of respect for what they are, neither can they just be tossed aside...

Any Suggestions as to what or should become of these would be helpful...

Thanks
Emil,

I don't know if my experience will help you, but I'll relate a story to you that might give another perspective. Some years ago, on a visit to Thailand, I went to Hellfire Pass, one of the more easily accessible parts of the Thai/Burma Railway - known colloquially as the 'Death Railway'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Pass

I wanted to go because my uncle had been a prisoner there (he survived this & Changi & is still in good health despite nearing 90). Something like 110,000 people died building the railway under the most appalling conditions. Suffering dragged out for weeks, months or years. Death came by starvation, disease, beating, bayonet or occasionally bullet. The place had a similar effect on me as had Dachau & as I later felt at Tuol Sleng in Cambodia - an evil place.

I had read that the owner of a local bar - a British expat called Danny Simpson - also took people out to the site. I had a drink at the bar & rapidly learned that Danny & some other local expats had spent years clearing away much of the jungle & debris overgrowing the track around Hellfire Pass, making it accessible to all. Danny took me for a tour & I told him about my uncle. When we got back to his bar he went out the back & came back with a railway spike. It was one he had collected during the clearing work. He wanted me to have it because of my uncle.

I still have the spike & I plan to put it on a wood block or some such & display it at home. I plan to use it to tell my nephews & nieces & their children about the war & my uncle. As a child my parents took us on a trip around the world. We went to many magical places such as Disneyland, the Grand Canyon, Stonehenge & many of the great landmarks of Western Europe. We also went to places like Verdun & Dachau. To me, such things made history real - something I could relate to. I hope to use that railway spike to pass that gift to other generations. Even if only one or two of those children 'get it' then any desecration will have had a purpose.

I don't know if this is helpful, but you might be able to use those bricks to a really positive purpose. History does not exist in places, books or even the mighty internet. It lives in people. People relate well to good stories & concrete links to events. Those bricks can perhaps make real to others an event which might otherwise seem abstract & distant. Perhaps that is what the guide wanted your daughter to understand. Ultimately you must do what you feel right & what you are comfortable with, but I think it is possible to keep the bricks without offending the souls of the departed, it that is what you choose.

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#204

Post by bf109 emil » 07 Aug 2009, 19:43

PeterOT your personal experience and your view and advice is great, and helped to put the items "Bricks" in another perspective or light

Thank You

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#205

Post by David Thompson » 09 Aug 2009, 21:46

A post from Ship of Fools, which was somewhat insulting and added nothing of interest to the topic, was deleted by this moderator -- DT.

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#206

Post by bf109 emil » 10 Aug 2009, 01:52

Something interesting I found, and am curious does any of these way-bill exist or archived or documented
"The organizing or deportation of Jews from different countries of Europe was directed Centrally for BERLIN. The SS officers, who had to collect the deportation trains, were obliged to turn over to every train leader a declaration of way-bill addressed to the Commandant of the destruction camps. In this letter the life or death of the deportees was determined. Without this letter or the order of AICHMANN, The Commandant could not gas them."

followed by this claim or statement ending this 5 page verified document

"Liquidation of the Jews in the different countries was directed always from the head by AICHMANN. Information on every step taken by AICHMANN'S people came to BERLIN. No gassing could be done without a written order of the official who had sent the Jews from any corner of Europe to Auschwitz, or without a telegraphed order from AICHMANN."

or is there any record or copy of these telegraph orders,,,as i suspect they had been or were destroyed

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#207

Post by David Thompson » 10 Aug 2009, 02:31

For interested readers -- "AICHMANN" is probably identifiable with Adolf Eichmann.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#208

Post by bf109 emil » 10 Aug 2009, 02:44

David Thompson wrote:For interested readers -- "AICHMANN" is probably identifiable with Adolf Eichmann.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann

sorry David and yes it is referring to him, but i copied Verbatim what was wrote from sourcehttp://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/d ... 20Jews.pdf

Rchrd
Member
Posts: 56
Joined: 10 Dec 2004, 00:28
Location: usa

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#209

Post by Rchrd » 01 Aug 2014, 17:19

It took me four days to get through this thread and the links therein. Morbid curiosity started me here, but after about page 4 I started to look upon it as a juror might, weighing the evidence presented. At the end I felt the defense was arguing that although the defendant was standing astride the body, spattered in blood, holding the murder weapon in one hand and the possesions of the victim in the other, he was not filmed committing the crime. Therefore, he is certainly innocent. Did the Germens employ homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz? I vote yes.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Nazi gas chambers

#210

Post by David Thompson » 01 Aug 2014, 19:41

Rchrd -- You wrote:
. . . after about page 4 I started to look upon it as a juror might, weighing the evidence presented.
That's exactly the way to approach these research threads.

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”