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Earldor
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#181

Post by Earldor » 07 Jul 2004, 16:17

Lucius Felix Silla wrote:Dear Mr. Earldor, Dejaco went to Chelmno on september 1942? Pure fantasy.


It is obvious that you have trouble either with the English language or comprehension in general, since the quote from H & GS -article was:
"and after the war Dejaco admitted that he had drawn diagrams of an open-pit crematorium and emulated Chelmno's technique at Auschwitz."

You need to dig up Walter Dejaco's 4 Mar. 1962 interrogation (Österreichisches Bezirksgericht Reutte, HS 58/62) and show us where the historians got it wrong, if you wish to contest this statement. A simple assertion does not suffice. Remember you are claiming that all the eyewitnesses are wrong, all of them; the perpetrators and the prisoners and the by-standers...
Dejaco went on date 16th Septembre 1942 to Lizmannstadt i.e. Lodz,


And Lizmannstadt i.e. Lodz is the nearest big town to Chelmno. Höss' separate corroboration of this story should be sufficient to confirm the events to a reasonable reader but as I'm dealing here with a holocaust denier, I don't see how I could convince you. Or have you answered my questions in the other thread?

I would urge the interested readers to read mr. Rampton closing remarks in the Irving vs. Lipstadt -trial to see the "logic" behind LFS's denials http://veritas.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i ... pton.shtml
So on September 1942, SS-Untersturmführer Walter Dejaco, who together with his colleague Hössler had accompanied Camp Commandant Rudolf Höss to Litzmannstadt (Lodz), drew up a “travel report” in which he mentioned that the purpose of the trip had been the “visual inspection of the special facility, and discussions with SS-Standartenführer Blobel about the implementation of such a facility.”
And Blobel was at this time in charge of the Einsatzkommando 10-05 (the purpose of this unit was to destroy the physical evidence of the Holocaust to the best of their abilities) in operation in Chelmno, not Lizmannstadt, and both Höss and Dejaco admit being in Chelmno at this time for the aforesaid reason. The 10-05 unit was getting rid of the remains of the Jews killed in the Chelmno death camp.
That these special facilities were intended in order to burn the corpses of people killed in those mythical Bunkers 1 and 2 is only a speculative assertion based upon eyewitnesses statements (eyewitnesses which according to Pressac were all killed by Germans in order to conceal the proofs of the mass graves near Bunker 1 and 2!).
And what is your reason to deny the validity of these eyewitness reports? You're not cherrypicking your evidence now, are you?

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#182

Post by Konrad » 07 Jul 2004, 16:23

Earldor wrote: And lo and behold, Dejaco went to Chelmno in September 1942 and when he returned wrote a memo entitled "Sonderanlage".
Do we know the content of this memo? What did he mean with "Sonderanlage"?
Pretty soon afterwards open-pit burning was started beside Bunker 1 and 2, so not simply for victims of epidemics, "and after the war Dejaco admitted that he had drawn diagrams of an open-pit crematorium and emulated Chelmno's technique at Auschwitz."
This concept of "open-pit burning" puzzles me quite a bit, considering the high water table in the marshy area around Birkenau, up to 30cm (1 ft) below ground level.
"and after the war Dejaco admitted that he had drawn diagrams of an open-pit crematorium and emulated Chelmno's technique at Auschwitz."
Was this during the trial against Walter Dejaco and Fritz Ertl which took place before the Superior Criminal Court in Vienna between January 1 and March 10, 1972 under the presiding judge Dr. Reisenleitner? Both Dejaco and Ertl were acquitted of the accusations, based on defense testimonies.
Notes: Walter Dejaco, 4 Mar. 1962, "interrogation," Österreichisches Bezirksgericht Reutte, HS 58/62. Pressac, Die Krematorien, p. 11.
I don't find this reference in my copy of Pressac's "Die Krematorien von Auschwitz". There is nothing about this on page 11.
Rudolf Kauer, a prisoner/engineer who worked with Dejaco, also discusses the Ringofen in statements made after the war: "In correspondence with the firm Topf, one referred to these pits as 'great ring cremation ovens,' 'open burning chambers' or 'open burning installations.' It was to be a deep oven that unified both advantages: the giant absorbtion capacity of the pit and the economy of the technically rational cremation ovens equipped with furnaces."
What is this man alking about?
There was an article about him in the Miami Herald "Lied about Auschwitz"
http://vho.org/VffG/2001/4/image079.gif
and an essay about Rudolf Kauer "Zeugen" (German)
http://vho.org/VffG/2001/4/Schneider449f.html

You may want to familiarize yourself with it.

Konrad


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Kal_El
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#183

Post by Kal_El » 07 Jul 2004, 16:43

http://www.google.dk/search?q=link%3A+w ... ning&meta=

That page at google gives a good impression about what kinda site who is.

Regards

Kaldru

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Lucius Felix Silla
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#184

Post by Lucius Felix Silla » 07 Jul 2004, 19:35

Earldor wrote:
Lucius Felix Silla wrote:Dear Mr. Earldor, Dejaco went to Chelmno on september 1942? Pure fantasy.


It is obvious that you have trouble either with the English language or comprehension in general, since the quote from H & GS -article was:
"and after the war Dejaco admitted that he had drawn diagrams of an open-pit crematorium and emulated Chelmno's technique at Auschwitz."

You need to dig up Walter Dejaco's 4 Mar. 1962 interrogation (Österreichisches Bezirksgericht Reutte, HS 58/62) and show us where the historians got it wrong, if you wish to contest this statement. A simple assertion does not suffice. Remember you are claiming that all the eyewitnesses are wrong, all of them; the perpetrators and the prisoners and the by-standers...
Dejaco went on date 16th Septembre 1942 to Lizmannstadt i.e. Lodz,


And Lizmannstadt i.e. Lodz is the nearest big town to Chelmno. Höss' separate corroboration of this story should be sufficient to confirm the events to a reasonable reader but as I'm dealing here with a holocaust denier, I don't see how I could convince you. Or have you answered my questions in the other thread?

I would urge the interested readers to read mr. Rampton closing remarks in the Irving vs. Lipstadt -trial to see the "logic" behind LFS's denials http://veritas.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i ... pton.shtml
So on September 1942, SS-Untersturmführer Walter Dejaco, who together with his colleague Hössler had accompanied Camp Commandant Rudolf Höss to Litzmannstadt (Lodz), drew up a “travel report” in which he mentioned that the purpose of the trip had been the “visual inspection of the special facility, and discussions with SS-Standartenführer Blobel about the implementation of such a facility.”
And Blobel was at this time in charge of the Einsatzkommando 10-05 (the purpose of this unit was to destroy the physical evidence of the Holocaust to the best of their abilities) in operation in Chelmno, not Lizmannstadt, and both Höss and Dejaco admit being in Chelmno at this time for the aforesaid reason. The 10-05 unit was getting rid of the remains of the Jews killed in the Chelmno death camp.
That these special facilities were intended in order to burn the corpses of people killed in those mythical Bunkers 1 and 2 is only a speculative assertion based upon eyewitnesses statements (eyewitnesses which according to Pressac were all killed by Germans in order to conceal the proofs of the mass graves near Bunker 1 and 2!).
And what is your reason to deny the validity of these eyewitness reports? You're not cherrypicking your evidence now, are you?
Dear Mr. Earldor,

There's no evidence about a presumed travel to Chelmno by Höss, Dejaco and Hoessler. This was proved by the report travel of Dejaco, where no mention to Chelmno was present.

Is it true that Chelmno was near Lodz, but the two localities weren't the same.

As for Höss testimony, this seems at least contradictory:

1) In his statement of Krakow (nov.1946) Hoss says

Shortly after Himmler's visit, SS Colonel Blobel from Eichmann's office arrived and brought Himmler's order, which stated that all the mass graves were to be opened and all the bodies cremated. It further stated that all the ashes were to be disposed of in such a way that later on there would be no way to determine the number of those cremated.

Blobel had already conducted various experiments in Kulmhof [Chelmno],[17] which tried to burn the bodies in various ways. He was ordered by Eichmann to show me the installations. I drove with Hössler to Chelmno for an inspection.[18] Blobel had different auxiliary ovens built and used wood and leftover gasoline for the burnings. He also tried using dynamite to blow up the corpses, but he had very little success with this method. After the bones were ground up into dust in the bone mills, the ashes were scattered in nearby wooded areas.

SS Colonel Blobel had a standing order to find the location of all mass graves in the Eastern Sector and to eliminate them. His staff was working under a disguised designation called 1005.[19] The actual work was done by a unit of Jews who were shot after completing their jobs. Concentration Camp Auschwitz had to constantly supply Jews for the 1005 unit. During my visit to Chelmno I also saw the airtight trucks used to kill prisoners with carbon monoxide gas [exhaust gas from the truck engine]. The officer in charge of that unit, however, described this method as unreliable. The gas supply was erratic and often not enough to kill. I could not learn how many bodies were in the mass graves at Chelmno, or how many had already been cremated.

Blobel had a fairly accurate knowledge of the number of mass graves in the eastern districts, but he was sworn to the greatest secrecy in the matter.


[17] Because of the shifting borders throughout history many cities and towns in Poland were named and renamed in German by the Prussian and the Austrian and, of course, the Polish governments. The Nazis also renamed many Polish cities to make them sound German. Oswiecim is the real name of the town the Germans called Auschwitz. Where possible the editor has used the current Polish names to aid the reader in determining the location of these cities.
[18] Höss left on September 16, 1940, with Lieutenants Hössler and Dejaco from the SS garrison of Auschwitz. KL-PMO, p. 116.
[19] Höss has confused the dates here. This occurred much later. The word Kommando was coined by the SS to refer to any work detail. The 1005 Kommando was called the "Death Brigade." Its job was to dig up the mass graves in the Lwow area and burn them to destroy any trace of the murders committed. KL-PMO, p. 116.Himmler ordered all mass graves dug up and the corpses burned because of the discovery of seven mass graves containing the bodies of 4,143 Polish officers in the Katyn Forest in the Soviet Union six miles west of Smolensk. It was determined by thirteen forensic specialists that the murders had been committed no later than the beginning of the spring of 1940. The fact that the Soviet Union was not invaded until June 22, 1941, and that the German army only reached the Smolensk area in August 1941 indicates that it was the Soviets who murdered the Polish officers. With the exception of a Bulgarian, none of the forensic specialists changed his 1943 signed declarations after the war. A signed declaration dated May 22, 1945, by an American colonel named van Vliet, who was a prisoner of war in Germany, declared, "The bodies wore winter uniforms. The boots and clothing were in excellent condition and showed no signs of wear." Van Vliet's conclusion was that if the Poles were killed by the Germans the clothes and boots would have shown at least two years wear. The Marshall Cavendish Encyclopedia of World War II, 1972, pp. 1416-25.

But some pages after, he in contrast with this declaration, write:

As far as I know, in addition to Auschwitz, the other extermination centers for Jews were as follows:

Chelmno near Litzmannstadt. . . . Engine exhaust gas
Treblinka on the Bug Engine exhaust gas
Sobibor near Lublin Engine exhaust gas
Belzec near Lemberg Engine exhaust gas
Lublin [Majdanek] Cyclon B[37]

I personally have seen only Chelmno and Treblinka. Chelmno was no longer being used, but I saw the entire operation at Treblinka.


see Cracow statement of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess posted in his integrality here at:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=52298.
Steven Paskuly's biography of Hoess, Death Dealer: The Memoirs of the SS Kommandant at Auschwitz, trans. Andrew Dollinger, Prometheus Books, Buffalo (NY): 1992, pp. 27-47. The above notes are taken from this book.

So Hoess affirms that he have visited Kulmhof/Chelmno in the summer of 1942 (as consequence of Himmler solicitation to burn all bodies during his visit at Auschwitz on date 17-18 th July) and at same time after 9 april 1943, when according to Censtral Commission of investigation of German Crimes in Poland, ( Warsaw 1946 vol I p.116) Chelmno operation of gassings were closed.

Note that in three early postwar confessions (NO 1210-March 1946; Interrogation of 1-2 April 1946; PS-3868 dated 5th April 1946) none reference is provided by Hoss about his travel to Chelmno: he mentions only his presumed visit to Treblinka and cite as other extermination centers Belzec and the misterious camp of Wolzek.

So this presumed visit to Chelmno seems to me more than dubious.

As for history of Blobel as commandat of group 1005 at time see supra note nr. 19.

And please stop futile reference to Mr. Rampton idiocies: that's is perfectly without any sense in a Forum dedicated to research.

Best Regards

LFS

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#185

Post by David Thompson » 07 Jul 2004, 21:50

LFS -- You said to Earldor:
And please stop futile reference to Mr. Rampton idiocies: that's is perfectly without any sense in a Forum dedicated to research.
That's not the way it works here. If you have a specific problem with a source or commentary, point it out and explain why. Labelling a person's remarks "idiocies" without examples or explanation, as you did, is "perfectly without any sense in a Forum dedicated to research."

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Earldor
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#186

Post by Earldor » 07 Jul 2004, 22:24

Lucius Felix Silla wrote: Dear Mr. Earldor,

There's no evidence about a presumed travel to Chelmno by Höss, Dejaco and Hoessler. This was proved by the report travel of Dejaco, where no mention to Chelmno was present.
My point was that Dejaco seems to have admitted to have visited Chelmno (most likely on this very trip) in connection with his trial.

Could you tell us what Dejaco said in his travel report? Höss certainly admitted having been to Chelmno with Hössler. The date for the Höss trip seems to have been mid-September 1942 (Around the 16th/17th of September).

And the final and most crucial evidence is the partially intercepted radio message testifying to the effect as well:
http://www.deathcamps.org/lublin/prodecodes.html
"September also saw the first mention of “Aktion Reinhard” in a partially intercepted radio message. WVHA granted KL Auschwitz permission for a vehicle to travel to Litzmannstadt and inspect the “Aktion Reinhard” research station for field-ovens.15 With SS-Standartenführer Paul Blobel presently at Chelmno, near Litzmannstadt, testing the burning of corpses on pyres was the reason for the journey. This journey possibly also indicates an expansion of the phrase “Aktion Reinhard” outside the General Government."
Is it true that Chelmno was near Lodz, but the two localities weren't the same.
No, but Paul Blobel was stationed in Lodz and working in Chelmno. Stands to reason that Höss and his crew stayed overnight in Lodz and visited Chelmno from Lodz.

http://www.deathcamps.org/lublin/prodecodes.html
"15. PRO: HW 16/21 (ZIP/GPDD 237b, message 42/43, transmitted 15 September 1942).

With so many documents and records destroyed by Security Police and SS offices towards the end of the war, a copy of this particular message has been found in the KZ Auschwitz Museum Archiv: APMO, Höß-Prozeß, Bd. 12, Bl. 168 and Bd. 38, Bl. 114, Anlage 59. I am grateful to Peter Witte for this example that shows quite clearly the authenticity of the British Intelligence wartime decodes and reliability of the text itself.

In his memoirs, Hoess recalls visiting “Culmhof” with SS-Untersturmführer Franz Hößler (Birkenau Schutzhaftlagerführer) and SS-Obersturmführer Walter Dejaco (Bauleitung, KL Auschwitz) to inspect how Blobel was burning bodies using wood and petrol residues, see Kommandant in Auschwitz, edited by Martin Broszat (Munich: DTV, 1981, 2nd edition), pp 161-162. A report of Dejaco confirms the visit to Litzmannstadt on 17 September 1942 (NO-4467)."
As for Höss testimony, this seems at least contradictory:
How so? Because he talks of gassings in Chelmno and later he also states that it was no longer used?

That is an apparent discrepancy, but again, not a fatal one by any stretch of imagination. Notice that Höss simply states that he "saw the airtight trucks used to kill prisoners with carbon monoxide gas". He does not mention seeing the gassing process. Although at the time of the visit gassings were ongoing in Chelmno, doesn't mean that Höss saw any. Also, he might have tried his best not to be connected with the Chelmno gassings.

Which part are you denying, by the way? That Chelmno was a death camp? That Höss and Hössler visited Chelmo to check out the open air pits? That Dejaco was with them?

Since all you can do to to refute Dejaco's and Höss' statements is to point out meaningless or even explainable discrepancies, could you at least offer your alternative interpretation some meaningful evidence? You can start by telling me where in Litzmannstadt these open air pits were supposed to be, if that is your contention?

As for Wolzek, you must have seen this explanation: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... k-paradox/
And please stop futile reference to Mr. Rampton idiocies: that's is perfectly without any sense in a Forum dedicated to research.
IMHO mr. Rampton makes an exeptionally articulate and well presented case for the way holocaust deniers twist the evidence. No wonder you didn't like it.

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Lucius Felix Silla
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#187

Post by Lucius Felix Silla » 07 Jul 2004, 23:57

Earldor wrote:
Lucius Felix Silla wrote: Dear Mr. Earldor,

There's no evidence about a presumed travel to Chelmno by Höss, Dejaco and Hoessler. This was proved by the report travel of Dejaco, where no mention to Chelmno was present.
My point was that Dejaco seems to have admitted to have visited Chelmno (most likely on this very trip) in connection with his trial.

Could you tell us what Dejaco said in his travel report? Höss certainly admitted having been to Chelmno with Hössler. The date for the Höss trip seems to have been mid-September 1942 (Around the 16th/17th of September).

And the final and most crucial evidence is the partially intercepted radio message testifying to the effect as well:
http://www.deathcamps.org/lublin/prodecodes.html
"September also saw the first mention of “Aktion Reinhard” in a partially intercepted radio message. WVHA granted KL Auschwitz permission for a vehicle to travel to Litzmannstadt and inspect the “Aktion Reinhard” research station for field-ovens.15 With SS-Standartenführer Paul Blobel presently at Chelmno, near Litzmannstadt, testing the burning of corpses on pyres was the reason for the journey. This journey possibly also indicates an expansion of the phrase “Aktion Reinhard” outside the General Government."
Is it true that Chelmno was near Lodz, but the two localities weren't the same.
No, but Paul Blobel was stationed in Lodz and working in Chelmno. Stands to reason that Höss and his crew stayed overnight in Lodz and visited Chelmno from Lodz.

http://www.deathcamps.org/lublin/prodecodes.html
"15. PRO: HW 16/21 (ZIP/GPDD 237b, message 42/43, transmitted 15 September 1942).

With so many documents and records destroyed by Security Police and SS offices towards the end of the war, a copy of this particular message has been found in the KZ Auschwitz Museum Archiv: APMO, Höß-Prozeß, Bd. 12, Bl. 168 and Bd. 38, Bl. 114, Anlage 59. I am grateful to Peter Witte for this example that shows quite clearly the authenticity of the British Intelligence wartime decodes and reliability of the text itself.

In his memoirs, Hoess recalls visiting “Culmhof” with SS-Untersturmführer Franz Hößler (Birkenau Schutzhaftlagerführer) and SS-Obersturmführer Walter Dejaco (Bauleitung, KL Auschwitz) to inspect how Blobel was burning bodies using wood and petrol residues, see Kommandant in Auschwitz, edited by Martin Broszat (Munich: DTV, 1981, 2nd edition), pp 161-162. A report of Dejaco confirms the visit to Litzmannstadt on 17 September 1942 (NO-4467)."
As for Höss testimony, this seems at least contradictory:
How so? Because he talks of gassings in Chelmno and later he also states that it was no longer used?

That is an apparent discrepancy, but again, not a fatal one by any stretch of imagination. Notice that Höss simply states that he "saw the airtight trucks used to kill prisoners with carbon monoxide gas". He does not mention seeing the gassing process. Although at the time of the visit gassings were ongoing in Chelmno, doesn't mean that Höss saw any. Also, he might have tried his best not to be connected with the Chelmno gassings.

Which part are you denying, by the way? That Chelmno was a death camp? That Höss and Hössler visited Chelmo to check out the open air pits? That Dejaco was with them?

Since all you can do to to refute Dejaco's and Höss' statements is to point out meaningless or even explainable discrepancies, could you at least offer your alternative interpretation some meaningful evidence? You can start by telling me where in Litzmannstadt these open air pits were supposed to be, if that is your contention?

As for Wolzek, you must have seen this explanation: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... k-paradox/
And please stop futile reference to Mr. Rampton idiocies: that's is perfectly without any sense in a Forum dedicated to research.
IMHO mr. Rampton makes an exeptionally articulate and well presented case for the way holocaust deniers twist the evidence. No wonder you didn't like it.

Dear Mr. Earldor,

All the documents cited by You CONFIRMS that the objective of the travel was LITZMANNSTADT i.e. LODZ and not CHELMNO.

The contemporaneous documents speaks for herself (intercepts by British Service and doc. NO-4467 which was the copy of travel rapport compiled by Dejaco: the only mention is on LITZMANNSTADT) so seems to me uncessary another discussion on this matter.

All others comments are only speculative possibilities added by various resarchers without any specific basis. How can You write "No, but Paul Blobel was stationed in Lodz and working in Chelmno. Stands to reason that Höss and his crew stayed overnight in Lodz and visited Chelmno from Lodz." What proofs You have for this statement? One must remember that Chelmno was distant 60 Km. from Lodz.

The mention of Aktion Reinhard is about the research station for field-ovens. So is more than probable that the reference is to, again i must stress, experiences conducted by Germans about open cremations of people died in Lodz ghetto. Lodz ghetto contains about 200.000 people in 1942.

Before his polocommunist captivity, Hoss was interrogated three times and in every occasion he have clearly stated that he was only at Treblinka camp. So the question of his supposed visit to Chelmno is only, with any probability, a postwar invention of Polish authority.

I known very well the essay of Jamie McCarthy.
I have already discuss the question on another thread here: that Höß would say - as suspected by James McCarthy - Sobibor and not Wolzek is only one hypothesis (not new, perhaps, because Adalbert Rueckerl have advanced this thesis in "NS-Vernichtungslager im Spiegel deutscher Strafprozesse, Munchen, 1979, p. 38)

McCarthy stress that "the paradox is resolved by reading the interrogation transcript [where only Treblinka and Belzak,sic, are mentioned, but neither Wolzek nor Sobibor] and looking at the map. The camp [Sobibor, because Wolzek - i repeat - don't exist, NB] was there. It was not invented, just misnamed [sic!]."

During his interrogation of 1st April 1946 Höss was asked:

Q. What were these extermination camps? Where were they, and what were their names?

A. There were three camps: first Treblinka, Belzak near Lemberg and the third one was 40 kilometers in the direction of Kulm. It was past Kulm in an easterly direction.

Mc Carthy stress that: Note that, despite being explicitly asked for the names of all three, Höß can only come up with two. "Treblinka" is spelled correctly by the transcriber. "Belzak" is Belzec. The missing camp, whose name Höß has forgotten, is - as van Pelt has already pointed out - Sobibor.

Does Sobibor's location fit with the one detail Höß gives? He claims it is 40 km "past Kulm in an easterly direction." The town of Chelm (Kulm, in the German spelling) is bisected by a railway line that runs west toward Lublin and east into the Soviet Union. Forty kilometers east of Chelm is nothing in particular, or at least no known death camps.


But he did not say it was due east; he said "in an easterly direction." Coming out of the town, near the city limits, a railway splits off and heads northeast. Exactly forty kilometers as travelled by rail lies the death camp Sobibor
This interpretation presents two problems.
Firstly.
In reality Höß insisted about the existence of Wolzek (sometimes also called by him Wolzec, but this can be an error) THREE TIMES, in THREE DISTINCTS DATES!:

- in Nur. doc. NO-1210 (interrogation dated 14 march 1946)
- in Nur. doc. PS-3868 ( statement to the IMT court dated 5 april 1946, i.e exactly 4 DAYS AFTER!)
- in Nur. doc. NO-034 (affidavit dated 20 may 1946).

Second problem.
The german name of polish city of Chelm, wasn't Kulm but Cholm .
So all this bizarre theory goes to....

As for Rampton, the hero of Earldor, i don't have words, only tears for the courage of Mr. Rampton...and - i must confess - a little of envy for his money in bank.

Best Regards

LFS

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Earldor
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#188

Post by Earldor » 08 Jul 2004, 00:38

Lucius Felix Silla wrote: Dear Mr. Earldor,

All the documents cited by You CONFIRMS that the objective of the travel was LITZMANNSTADT i.e. LODZ and not CHELMNO.
So you seem to say but you fail to recognize that all of the people involved say that when they went to Litzmannstadt, they in fact went to Litzmannstadt and then visited Chelmno death camp. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Oh, I remember, it would force you to admit that the eyewitness testimonies about open air pits in Chelmno and Auschwitz-Birkenau are reliable.

I repeat, where in Lodz were the open air pits you claim existed in Litzmannstadt, not Chelmno? You say, and I concur, that there were 200 000 Jews in the Lodz Ghetto around this time. Surely they would have seen or heard about them. What about the Polish inhabitants of Lodz? The Germans perhaps? Not a peep?
The contemporaneous documents speaks for herself (intercepts by British Service and doc. NO-4467 which was the copy of travel rapport compiled by Dejaco: the only mention is on LITZMANNSTADT) so seems to me uncessary another discussion on this matter.
I agree, your interpretation leaves no room for discussion. You require proof for every step of the way to the mass graves in Chelmno. Well, you have your motives...
All others comments are only speculative possibilities added by various resarchers without any specific basis.
On the contrary, they have presented a credible scenario, which you haven't done.

You claim that Höss, Hössler and Dejaco went to Lodz to check out the open air pits there. You tell me where in Lodz these pits were. Tell me what your "specific basis" for this "speculative possibility" is? Simply saying that you don't find Höss' or Dejaco's statements credible (on flimsy grounds) is not enough.
How can You write "No, but Paul Blobel was stationed in Lodz and working in Chelmno. Stands to reason that Höss and his crew stayed overnight in Lodz and visited Chelmno from Lodz." What proofs You have for this statement? One must remember that Chelmno was distant 60 Km. from Lodz.
It stands to reason. All of the known participants of this trip say they went to Chelmno. We know that Blobel was basically stationed in Lodz. Why would the participants have had to stay in Chelmno to check out the activities there? Why would the messages spell out the actual destination of the trio, since the camp was a Geheime Reichssache?
Before his polocommunist captivity, Hoss was interrogated three times and in every occasion he have clearly stated that he was only at Treblinka camp. So the question of his supposed visit to Chelmno is only, with any probability, a postwar invention of Polish authority.
I see no such probability. Present your proof.
I known very well the essay of Jamie McCarthy.
I have already discuss the question on another thread here: that Höß would say - as suspected by James McCarthy - Sobibor and not Wolzek is only one hypothesis (not new, perhaps, because Adalbert Rueckerl have advanced this thesis in "NS-Vernichtungslager im Spiegel deutscher Strafprozesse, Munchen, 1979, p. 38)


Again, I'm not at all surprised that you would, once again, try to explain away a perfectly possible scenario because it hurts your holocaust denial.
This interpretation presents two problems.
Firstly.
In reality Höß insisted about the existence of Wolzek (sometimes also called by him Wolzec, but this can be an error) THREE TIMES, in THREE DISTINCTS DATES!:

- in Nur. doc. NO-1210 (interrogation dated 14 march 1946)
- in Nur. doc. PS-3868 ( statement to the IMT court dated 5 april 1946, i.e exactly 4 DAYS AFTER!)
- in Nur. doc. NO-034 (affidavit dated 20 may 1946).
I don't see the problem. Maybe the problem is in that I find your logic to be extremely hard to follow.
Second problem.
The german name of polish city of Chelm, wasn't Kulm but Cholm .
So all this bizarre theory goes to....
Bizarre? And how would a German person without the knowledge of Polish pronounce the name? I find it remarkable that Höss was able to describe the location of Sobibor so well after about three years. The name notwithstanding.

It is quite interesting that you try to render unreliable all the documents or eyewitness statements that are incriminating for the Germans in the matter of homicidal gas chambers.

Which reminds me of another question (among many that you haven't answered): Do you admit the existance of homicidal gas chambers in the Operation Reinhardt death camps and Chelmno?
As for Rampton, the hero of Earldor, i don't have words, only tears for the courage of Mr. Rampton...and - i must confess - a little of envy for his money in bank.
And by this you imply that... ?

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#189

Post by Sergey Romanov » 11 Jul 2004, 14:18

BTW, the question of the Topf engineers' testimonies will be discussed at some length in the forthcoming response of the Veritas team to the "revisionist" nonsense here:

http://p067.ezboard.com/frodohforumfrm2 ... D=26.topic

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#190

Post by Mr Holmes » 19 Apr 2007, 16:03

In another thread (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=118056) I asked the following in response to Mr Thompson’s explanation/rebuttal of the “poison pits” theory as expounded by Revisionists. I was kindly requested to ask the questions that follow in this present thread (apologies, Sir, if my post there took the thread down a decidedly bad course). My post ran as follows:
David Thompson wrote:Martin -- (1) This observation:
One of the points they make is that Zyklon -B in small amounts was mainly used for delousing. To pour an entire can (or cans) of this material, which was a mustard gas derivitive, into a small room would create a pit of poison for days for anyone entering so it would be almost impossible to extract the bodies from such a venture for up to a week.
is false, as far as the "poison pit" notion goes. Even when the Germans were fumigating entire buildings for periods as long as 16 hours, they could be reoccupied within a day after the fumigation. See:
Zyklon-B handling instructions
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 345#424345
At this point I began to ask my initial two questions:
In this linked thread you have pasted Dr Miklos Nyiszli's "Doctor's Account". In it he recounts the following:
The ventilators, patented <<Exhator>>[36] system quickly evacuated the gas from the room, but in the crannies between the dead and the cracks of the doors small pockets of it always remained. Even two hours later it caused a suffocating cough. For that reason the Sonderkommando group which first moved into the room was equipped with gas masks [37].
This may be a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway: 1) Where was the gas pulled to? Outside the camp via some sort of piping? Via a chimney where it dissipated in the higher air?


-edit-

2) Forgot to ask; the ventilators, were they powered by fans and such?
(Addendum to Question 1: On p. 19 of Pressac’s study, he cites a document entitled TRANSLATION OF DOC. NO. NI 9912, and under Article XI “AIRING” is stipulated the following:
The airing should [take] place according to the following principles: pure air
should always be within reach in the shortest possible time and the gas should flow
out to that side where it cannot endanger people who are not participating.
If indeed ducts of a non-mechanical nature were operated to extract the poison, the method of propulsion away from the surrounding area would not be sufficient enough to take it away from the Germans themselves, placing them also at risk. Would this be a correct presupposition? Or am I totally missing the mark here?)
_____________________________________________________




However, after having read through all 13 pages of some of the densest material I have ever read (reading criminal type investigations is not one of my fortes) I’ve come away with more questions than I have answers. I’ve read the entry on Zyklon-B in Wikipedia and then Pressac’s, but aside from having many weaknesses with forensic documentation, I am also not the best with reading up on chemicals and their properties and reactivity (reasons for; processes etc). Not only was this thread “full on” (to employ some modern parlance), Pressac’s investigation was even moreso.

So if I may prevail upon our forum members to answer the following questions of certain points that I do not understand, or may not have entirely grasped the essence of what is being said, I would be most grateful. My questions initially referred only to the system of ducts for extracting the poisonous chemical from the gas chambers. However, it became evident that I was not at all versed with the intricacies of Zyklon-B, therefore the remainder of my questions follow.


3) How long would Zyklon need to disperse if one merely kept the door open with a weaker draft coming in? How long with other natural types of ventilation? With mechanised? NB: I am aware that Pressac claims for 15 mins with proper ventilation:
Forced draught ventilation would be relatively efficient in these circumstances. After 15 minutes of ventilation the air in the room would be completely renewed.
(Pressac, p. 16)

However, we see Nyiszli stating that the gas lingered on for at least two hours. Who is correct?

4) When natural extraction methods were utilised, were there coverings for the ducts? How big were the ducts? If there were no covers, would this not have caused problems for the potency of the chemical agent?

5) The much famed “Prussian Blue” effect on the walls. Could the fresh air pumped in (or otherwise) have either prevented (in cases) or lessened such a marked effect on the walls?

6) Once the first group of corpses were dragged out of a chamber, ordinarily, how long would it be before the next group was led in? If minimal ventilation had been exercised, would we have people succumbing at the door? (ie. Would a “top up” be needed when the next group filed in if the chamber was had not been aired?)

7) Does Zyklon of necessity need fresh air to disperse, or can it weaken on its own? If it does weaken on its own, why the need for exhausts? Time considerations?

8) I have seen references to a gas detector (eg):
After verifying by means of a gas detector that there was no longer any danger of hydrocyanic acid intoxication outside the gas chamber, operations would have resumed their “normal” course.
(Pressac, p. 377)
What sort of device did this look like? Was it handheld? Did it run through the wall into a system of dials displaying “SAFE”, for example?

9) How was transport of Zyklon-B conducted? If it were by truck, were any measures needed to be taken to ensure that the canisters containing the poisonous chemical did not “react” with the heat of the atmosphere say, during summer time (I am not sure what the average temperatures from factory to distribution point to unloading at Auschwitz are, and IF this would have any effect on the stability of the chemical)? I ask this because of this document on p. 18 of Pressac:
TRANSLATION OF DOC. NO. NI 9912
Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes

DIRECTIVES FOR THE USE OF PRUSSIC ACID (ZYKLON
FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF VERMIN (DISINFESTATION)

I. Properties of prussic acid (hydrocyanic acid)
Prussic acid is a gas which is generated by evaporation.
Boiling point 25 degrees Centigrade
Freezing point -15 degrees Centigrade


I have read the present thread, as well as Pressac’s thesis (only the two chapters which I thought would be related to my questions: chs. 1 & 6) as both scanned here and via this link:
http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0011.htm

but all that I have achieved is to become bogged down in the details of various happenings and I lose the essence of what may address the questions I have.

I ask for forgiveness in asking these questions, since I am not well versed in these matters and need explanations done in “layman’s terms”. Any clarification on one or all of the points would be most highly appreciated. Even the shortest of answers would be of great value to me.

Nick

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#191

Post by David Thompson » 19 Apr 2007, 18:56

Sepp Dietrich -- I'll give you my understanding of how the system worked; other readers may have corrections, comments, or changes to add.

As a technical matter, there are two steps to homicidal gassings, once the victims are in the gas chamber. The first involves killing them, and the second involves the subsequent clean-up.

The Zyklon-B came in pellets ("the carrier") soaked in prussic acid. To use the Zyklon-B, the pellets were exposed to the surrounding air, which caused the prussic acid to volatilize off the carrier and become a gas. To achieve homicidal concentrations for people or insecticidal concentrations for insects, it was necessary to seal off the area to be gassed while the gassing took place.

Once the gassing had taken place, the gassed area had to be aired out before it was safe for human activity again. Where the Zyklon-B was used to kill insects, this process involved natural ventilation -- opening the doors, windows, flues and ventilator shafts of the fumigated building and letting the gas dissipate in the air around the building.

This gets us to your first and second questions:
This may be a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway: 1) Where was the gas pulled to? Outside the camp via some sort of piping? Via a chimney where it dissipated in the higher air?
and
If indeed ducts of a non-mechanical nature were operated to extract the poison, the method of propulsion away from the surrounding area would not be sufficient enough to take it away from the Germans themselves, placing them also at risk. Would this be a correct presupposition? Or am I totally missing the mark here?)
The answer to your first question is that the gas was pulled to the area outside the building where the gassing took place. See section XI of the Zyklon-B handing instructions at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 353#424353 . Note that this approach involves natural ventilation rather than mechanical ventilation, and discusses precautions to be used when the windows in the gassed building are open -- namely, the guards or working personnel should stand upwind when the structure is being aired out.

The handling instructions answer your second question about non-mechanical ventilation. Since the Zyklon-B gas was lighter than air, it would mix with and dissipate in the higher air as it rose. If there was a wind blowing through the open windows of the building which was gassed, the dissipating Zyklon-B might pose a threat to those standing too close to the ground floor windows on the downwind side of the building. If the gassed building had a basement, there might also be a problem for those standing too close to the basement's vents or windows. The handling instructions describe the necessary precautions for these potential problems.

In the homicidal gas chambers, mechanical ventilation was also used, which cut the time necessary to air out the chamber. This gets us to your additional question:
2) Forgot to ask; the ventilators, were they powered by fans and such?
That's the suggestion I got from the statements of Nyiszli ("Twenty minutes later, the electric ventilators were set going in order to evacuate the gas.") and Hoess ("The door was opened half an hour after the introduction of the gas, and the ventilation switched on."). See Pressac, pp. 473, 475.

Your third question was:
3) How long would Zyklon need to disperse if one merely kept the door open with a weaker draft coming in? How long with other natural types of ventilation? With mechanised? NB: I am aware that Pressac claims for 15 mins with proper ventilation.

However, we see Nyiszli stating that the gas lingered on for at least two hours. Who is correct?
I think the answer to the first part of the questions would depend on a number of variables, such as the concentration of gas, the size of the structure, the amount and efficiency of natural ventilation available, and the exhaust power of any mechanical ventilation which was used.

For the second part of this question, Nyiszli is talking about pockets of gas which had been trapped:
"The ventilators, patented “Exhator” system quickly evacuated the gas from the room, but in the crannies between the dead and the cracks of the doors small pockets of it always remained. Even two hours later it caused a suffocating cough."
and the irritant which caused the cough and which had been added to the Zyklon-B as a handling precaution to prevent inadvertent exposure to the volatilized prussic acid. See Section II of the handling instructions at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 345#424345 .

Without knowing more about the properties of the irritant in Zyklon-B, and whether it mimicked or was different from the properties of the lethal volatilized prussic acid gas, I can't say whether the irritant might have lingered after the Zyklon-B gas had dissipated. It may also be that Pressac is talking about lethal concentrations of the Zyklon-B gas, as opposed to small trapped pockets containing the irritant which would cause members of the Sonderkommando to cough, but wouldn't kill them or significantly impede their corpse-hauling work

Your fourth set of questions was:
4) When natural extraction methods were utilised, were there coverings for the ducts? How big were the ducts? If there were no covers, would this not have caused problems for the potency of the chemical agent?
As best I can recall, natural extraction methods were only used in the first gassing experiments with Zyklon-B, because it took too long to air out the gas chamber. Some of the problems with natural extraction are mentioned in the Zyklon-B handling instructions for disinfestation purposes, specifically sections VII through XIV.

Your fifth question was:
5) The much famed “Prussian Blue” effect on the walls. Could the fresh air pumped in (or otherwise) have either prevented (in cases) or lessened such a marked effect on the walls?
I haven't seen any experiments which establish, or even discuss, the factors of gas concentration or structural compositions of the walls which affect the formation of prussian blue stains. Because the gas chambers were hosed out immediately after homicidal gassings:
The Sonderkommando squad, outfitted with large rubber boots, lined up round the hill of bodies and flooded it with powerful jets of water. This was necessary because the final act of those who die by drowning or by gas in an involuntary defecation. Each body was befouled and had to be washed. Once the “bathing” of the dead was finished — a job the Sonderkommando carried out by a voluntary act of impersonalization and in a state of profound distress — the separation of the welter of bodies began. (Nyiszli's description, at Pressac p. 473)
and the prussic acid gas was soluble in water (Zyklon-B handling instructions, Section I and Section XIII, paragraph 1), the washing process probably had more of an inhibiting effect on the formation of prussian blue stains than the mechanical ventilation.

Your eighth set of questions was:
8) I have seen references to a gas detector (eg):
After verifying by means of a gas detector that there was no longer any danger of hydrocyanic acid intoxication outside the gas chamber, operations would have resumed their “normal” course.
(Pressac, p. 377)

What sort of device did this look like? Was it handheld? Did it run through the wall into a system of dials displaying “SAFE”, for example?
I don't know what kind of detectors were used in the homicidal gas chambers, but the Zyklon-B handing sheet suggests that the gas detectors used in disinfestation operations were of the hand-held "litmus paper" type. See Sections XII and XIV(5) of the handling instructions at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 353#424353 .

I'll try to answer your sets of questions 6-7 and 9 when I have a little more time.

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#192

Post by Eddy Marz » 19 Apr 2007, 19:37

Wasn't there also an "irritant" added automatically as a safety measure during manufacture ? In 1943, Kurt Gerstein tried to persuade Dr Peters at Degesch to remove the irritant from the gas as it created extra suffering for the victims. Peters objected that if it was removed there would be no way of detecting leakage. The 'disinfectant smell' often mentioned, is the irritant - not the Zyklon.

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#193

Post by David Thompson » 19 Apr 2007, 23:04

Sepp Dietrich -- You asked:
6) Once the first group of corpses were dragged out of a chamber, ordinarily, how long would it be before the next group was led in? If minimal ventilation had been exercised, would we have people succumbing at the door? (ie. Would a “top up” be needed when the next group filed in if the chamber was had not been aired?)
After the early gassings, there was more than one gas chamber operating at Auschwitz at any given time. I haven't read any witness accounts of several transports of 600-1500 persons being sequentially placed in the same gas chamber over the course of a single day. The answer to your question is, assuming it took place, I don't know. Obviously, having people succumb at the door of the gas chamber -- or even start hacking and coughing from the irritant in any residual Zyklon-B left behind -- would have been a substantial disruption of the killing process and consequently would have been avoided.

You also asked:
7) Does Zyklon of necessity need fresh air to disperse, or can it weaken on its own? If it does weaken on its own, why the need for exhausts? Time considerations?
I don't know enough about the characteristics of Zyklon-B or prussic acid to know if it weakens on its own over time. The handling instructions specify that it should be used within 3 months of shipment and receipt. The handling instructions for disinfestation purposes suggest that the gassed area be ventilated for the better part of a day using natural ventilation, although other posters have written that even using natural ventilation, the gassed area could be used within 6-8 hours or so.

Your last set of questions were:
9) How was transport of Zyklon-B conducted? If it were by truck, were any measures needed to be taken to ensure that the canisters containing the poisonous chemical did not “react” with the heat of the atmosphere say, during summer time (I am not sure what the average temperatures from factory to distribution point to unloading at Auschwitz are, and IF this would have any effect on the stability of the chemical)?
The Zyklon-B was packed in airtight tins. Because of its widespread use as a disinfestant, it was probably shipped by rail to the nearest train station and then trucked to various destinations for use in the field. Auschwitz had its own rail station, so it probably wasn't necessary for it to be trucked any further than from the Auschwitz station to the locations in the camp where the disinfestations or homicidal gassings took place. There is a description of the various sizes of Zyklon-B cans, property tables, the handling sheet, etc. at Pressac, pp. 16-20, beginning at http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0016.htm

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#194

Post by Mr Holmes » 23 Apr 2007, 09:25

Mr Thompson,

I thank you for addressing each and every question that I posed in a manner able to be comprehended easily. All that you have written has cleared up almost all of the queries I had, save two (one which I should have posted among my questions but which you included in your answers and one new one).

a) Agents Used in the Homicidal Gassings

In your introductory section to your answers (first post) you wrote the following:
The Zyklon-B came in pellets ("the carrier") soaked in prussic acid. To use the Zyklon-B, the pellets exposed to the surrounding air, which caused the prussic acid to volatilize off the carrier and become a gas.
I grew up knowing of Zyklon-B as the agent which was utilised in the homicidal gassings. Having read through this thread and those portions of Pressac's work as well as your own posts in reply to me, I see that it was not only Zyklon-B which was utilised, but also a "hydrocyanic acid" (Pressac, p. 66). I am not sure if these two terms (Zyklon and hydrocyanic acid) are tautologous. Was this "hydrocyanic acid" employed as a reactive agent?; is it the irritant (what was the purpose of this irritant)?; did this acid play a role in the asphyxiation of the victims (if it was used in homicidal applications rather than just actual delousing) or was it merely a tool to set the Zyklon off? Or am I misreading something? (I did read the properties scan in that link, but I just want to make sure I understand things fully).

b) Last Question on Prussian Blue Walls

You wrote:
I haven't seen any experiments which establish, or even discuss, the factors of gas concentration or structural compositions of the walls which affect the formation of prussian blue stains. Because the gas chambers were hosed out immediately after homicidal gassings:
The Sonderkommando squad, outfitted with large rubber boots, lined up round the hill of bodies and flooded it with powerful jets of water. This was necessary because the final act of those who die by drowning or by gas in an involuntary defecation. Each body was befouled and had to be washed. Once the “bathing” of the dead was finished — a job the Sonderkommando carried out by a voluntary act of impersonalization and in a state of profound distress — the separation of the welter of bodies began. (Nyiszli's description, at Pressac p. 473)
and the prussic acid gas was soluble in water (Zyklon-B handling instructions, Section I and Section XIII, paragraph 1), the washing process probably had more of an inhibiting effect on the formation of prussian blue stains than the mechanical ventilation.
I think I see what you are getting at. Since Zyklon-B is lighter than air, we have the victims thinking that to escape the poisonous fumes, they must clamour to get "above" the gasses and fumes but it is an ill-fated venture... since Zyklon rises. With the Sonderkommando entering the chamber, we see a hosing down of the corpses: "and flooded it with powerful jets of water" (the hill of bodies as the doctor puts it). At this point, I would like to ask two sub-questions:

i) Is prussian Blue something that sticks to a wall? ie. is it powdery? Is it like an adhesive, almost like a coat of paint? If indeed it is the latter, is there a set time limit on how long one can hose down the evidence, as it were? For example, in the doctor's account above, we have the Sonderkommando entering the chamber minutes after the gassing hosing down the corpses. What happens if one does this say after two weeks? Which leads me to my next sub-question;

ii) Since Zyklon rises, does this mean that there would be a prevalence of this stain on the ceiling? We then have the hosing down of the corpses with powerful streams of water. I think it would be safe to assume that we would be witnessing a spray effect on the ceiling with some of the water running along the ceiling and in turn, running down the walls taking with it the poisonous stain and probably dissolving on the floor of the chamber. However, with the exhaust fan working to dissipate the fumes, most of the poison would be extracted, but what of the outer edges of the ceiling where the extraction of the gas would take longer to disappear? It would be safe to assume that there would be heavier staining there. With the hosing down of the corpses centred on, in all probability, towards the centre of the chamber, or at least where the duct was, it would be difficult to hose down those blue areas, unless done intentionally. Does anyone have any theories or evidence to show that indeed the water affected those regions in the manner just pointed out? Of course, this sub-question all hinges on the fact that I have not seen proper, colourised pictures of the homicidal chambers which shows or does not show the effect of this Prussian Blue staining within the homicidal chambers at Auschwitz.


N.B. I am NOT seeking to promote ANY AGENDA with these questions. I merely wish to find out more about what happened.

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#195

Post by David Thompson » 23 Apr 2007, 15:36

Sepp Dietrich -- You wrote:
I grew up knowing of Zyklon-B as the agent which was utilised in the homicidal gassings. Having read through this thread and those portions of Pressac's work as well as your own posts in reply to me, I see that it was not only Zyklon-B which was utilised, but also a "hydrocyanic acid" (Pressac, p. 66). I am not sure if these two terms (Zyklon and hydrocyanic acid) are tautologous. Was this "hydrocyanic acid" employed as a reactive agent?; is it the irritant (what was the purpose of this irritant)?; did this acid play a role in the asphyxiation of the victims (if it was used in homicidal applications rather than just actual delousing) or was it merely a tool to set the Zyklon off? Or am I misreading something? (I did read the properties scan in that link, but I just want to make sure I understand things fully).
Zyklon-B was not the only killing agent used in homicidal gassings. The euthanasia program (Aktion T-4) and the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka used carbon monoxide gas rather than Zyklon-B.

Hydrocyanic acid and prussic acid are two names for the same thing -- you can see the various synonyms for the substance in the chart on the right hand side of this Wikipedia entry for hydrogen cyanide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_cyanide

Zyklon-B was the commercial name for hydrogen cyanide/ hydrocyanic acid/ prussic acid manufactured with an added irritant -- Bromessigester/ bromacetic ester. The purpose of the irritant was to provide a physical warning that prussic acid was being used. The irritant caused people immediately around the gas to start coughing if they weren't wearing a gas mask. The manufacturer's idea was that the irritant would prevent accidental deaths from persons unknowingly inhaling the gas, and make it safer to use.

You also asked:
Is prussian Blue something that sticks to a wall? ie. is it powdery? Is it like an adhesive, almost like a coat of paint? If indeed it is the latter, is there a set time limit on how long one can hose down the evidence, as it were?
As I understand it, prussian blue is a particular color that characterizes a stain which forms in and on the walls of some structures which have been exposed to prussic acid gas. The walls might be made of brick and mortar, concrete, stucco, sheetrock, etc.

I have not seen any studies analyzing how and under what conditions the prussian blue stains appear -- how much of a concentration of prussic acid gas is necessary for the stains to form, whether the stains form more or less readily in some types of wall building materials than others, whether prolonged exposure to the gas is necessary for the stains to appear, whether temperature has some part in the staining, and similar issues. In other words, there's no established control data for the staining effect. As a result, I don't have any scientific basis for answering your questions about it. You can see a lot of discussion and speculation, supported by little or no data, at:

The Leuchter Report Vindicated
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1845
zyklon-b
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=4382
krema 2
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=5968
Mass murder in Auschwitz
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6395
Claims of forged, altered or missing evidence
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=14260
Fred Leuchter
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=15695
Zyklon b and blue color
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=44520

The photographs of the stains which I've seen suggests that the composition of the walls has a lot to do with the formation of the stains, which are uneven in intensity and coverage. I haven't seen any photographs of stained ceilings, though there may be some out there.
Last edited by David Thompson on 23 Apr 2007, 15:52, edited 1 time in total.

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