Nazi gas chambers

[deco-one]

I also just finished wading through this long post. My take:

Show me the proof that the Titanic hit an iceberg! Where is this iceberg?! Did anyone take a picture at the moment the ship hit the iceberg?! If not, then there is no 'documentary evidence' - probably never happened! The witnesses are all suspect and completely unreliable - that's why their testimonies about the sinking are all different! Show me on the wreckage anything that proves it hit an iceberg - there is nothing! A myth! Where are all these supposed 1500 people? Are there pictures of masses of floating bodies? There's no proof anyone was on the ship! There's no proof it wasn't blasted by a UFO!

Too much time is spent in circular, asinine arguments with people who are obviously here only to deny the facts of the Holocaust.

This is the very reason people begin to avoid great forums such as this (as mentioned in the board rules). Its very tiring and I'd respectfully suggest weeding out people with an obvious denial agenda more aggressively.

Thanks

Charley

[snpol]

Let's look at this source
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... mbers.html

The first gas chambers erected in Sobibor were in a solid brick building with a concrete foundation. They were located in the north- west part of the camp, more isolated and distant from the other parts of the camp than in Belzec.

There were three gas chambers in the building, each 4 x 4 metres. The capacity of each chamber was about two hundred people. Each gas chamber was entered through its separate door leading from a veranda that ran along the building.

On the opposite side of the building, there was a second set of doors for removing the corpses. Outside was a shed in which the engine that supplied the carbon monoxide gas was installed. Pipes conducted the gas from the engine exhaust to the gas chambers.

Typical hight of gas chambers was 2m. As for Belzec then (I quote the same source)

The height of each section was 2m.

We have volume of the chamber 32,000 liters - about 160 liters per victim. Each person had own volume 50-70 liters. It means about 100 L of air for person. Only 1/5 of air is oxygen. So there was about 20 L of oxygen per victim. Human beings consume about 0.4-0.5L of oxygen per minute. It means that even without exhaust gases all oxygen in such a gas chamber would be consumed withing 40-50 minutes. Really people die if concentration of oxygen falls from 20-21% below 6-7% level. So within 25-35 minutes all would die even without any exhaust gases.
Yes, in theory, such a scheme (with exhaust gases) was possible. But why it was needed to use exhaust gases? Yes, exhaust gases would accelerate the process but there would be no need for any ventilation.

The main problem, however, was to place 200 people into small 4x4 meters chamber Some (likely many) would understand what does it mean and SS guards would have to shoot them. In this case would it be more easy just shoot them all on the spot?

[siwiec]

The main problem, however, was to place 200 people into small 4x4 meters chamber

Why would that be a huge problem? There are metro systems which claim their maximum capacity is 10 passengers/m2 and I suppose that is expected to be achieved using non-violent means. Your source also mentioned it is "about 200", so obviously could be a bit less, too, like 160, i.e. 10 persons/m2.

[snpol]

The main problem, however, was to place 200 people into small 4x4 meters chamber

Why would that be a huge problem? There are metro systems which claim their maximum capacity is 10 passengers/m2 and I suppose that is expected to be achieved using non-violent means. Your source also mentioned it is "about 200", so obviously could be a bit less, too, like 160, i.e. 10 persons/m2.

In Tokyo Metro the number could be even bigger – more than 13 persons per m2.
But passengers know why they have to be packed so densely.
Let’s reconstruct ‘packing process’ in a small gas chamber. Soon inmates would suspect and even understand that it means death. Some would resist, fall down, lose consciousness. Guards would have to use arms that would cause disorder, chaos and as a result mass shootings. From point of view of common sense it would be more save, practical, easier just to shoot these 200 poor victims than to try to pack them in a small gas chamber, gas them, ventilate gas chamber.
Also, note, that after complicated ‘packing process’ exhaust gases or other poisonous gases would not be needed. Without ventilation the victims would die soon.

[siwiec]

Soon inmates would suspect and even understand that it means death.

Why? Is there any evidence that they did? Any descriptions of the use of arms during the process for example?

[snpol]

Soon inmates would suspect and even understand that it means death.

Why? Is there any evidence that they did? Any descriptions of the use of arms during the process for example?

As I understand (I invite more informed forumists to correct me) there are no any evidence based descriptions of the very process of placement of victims in gas chambers.
However, if allegation in the article (that I quoted) is correct then the process of placement was not so simple. Victims would see that they are being forced to enter very small chamber. At least some would cry, would be nervous. Some (not all are idiots) could relise that it is just an execution and they have nothing to lose.
They are common sense based considerations.

[siwiec]

As I understand (I invite more informed forumists to correct me) there are no any evidence based descriptions of the very process of placement of victims in gas chambers.

But you gave us earlier a source with several such descriptions, what is wrong with those? They do not seem to mention any mass shootings, but some suggest people believed they were going to have a bath, others that at the last moment some who perhaps realized what was happening tried to turn back but by using clubs etc. were pushed into the chambers.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... mbers.html

[snpol]

As I understand (I invite more informed forumists to correct me) there are no any evidence based descriptions of the very process of placement of victims in gas chambers.

But you gave us earlier a source with several such descriptions, what is wrong with those? They do not seem to mention any mass shootings, but some suggest people believed they were going to have a bath, others that at the last moment some who perhaps realized what was happening tried to turn back but by using clubs etc. were pushed into the chambers.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... mbers.html

The descriptions are rather reconstructions (imaginary descriptions) not based on real observations. Yes, allegedly the victims were told that they were going to have a bath but size of the gas chambers was so small that at least some victims would understand the truth - they going to be executed and one could suggest respective reaction.
I would like to repeat my point - the size (very small one) of the gas chambers made it impossible to use the ruse about bathing.

[siwiec]

The descriptions are rather reconstructions (imaginary descriptions) not based on real observations.

I wonder what you mean by "reconstructions" as those witnesses worked at camps, i.e. based their statements on their observations. Whether or not all of them were direct eyeball witnesses is not of course clear without studying their full statements, but more crucial to your point about mass-shootings is that if and when they were at the camp area, they would have at least heard it by their own ears if such thing occurred. Those were not that big camps, you know.

[snpol]

The descriptions are rather reconstructions (imaginary descriptions) not based on real observations.

I wonder what you mean by "reconstructions" as those witnesses worked at camps, i.e. based their statements on their observations. Whether or not all of them were direct eyeball witnesses is not of course clear without studying their full statements, but more crucial to your point about mass-shootings is that if and when they were at the camp area, they would have at least heard it by their own ears if such thing occurred. Those were not that big camps, you know.

Now you are ready to accept my point
IF such a big number of victims (200) was forced to enter into so small chamber (16 m2)
THEN most likely they would try to resist and probably the guard would have to use fire, to shot those who disobey.
BUT we unaware about reports of such shootings
SO (and it is my point) number of victims in (small) gas chambers was much lower that theoretical capacity (200)
I strongly doubt that such a big number (200) could be forced to enter into so small chamber without problems. The process is not so easy anyway.
I noted previously that if the guards were able to force to enter 200 people into 16m2 chamber then exhaust gases (or any poisonous gases) would not be needed. Poor victims would die during short time interval anyway. It also points to much lower number of victims.

The Nazis were cynical, murderous and had clear objective - complete extermination of the Jews. Gas chambers in this context is not the best possible solution for industrial grade executions. It is too complicated, technically difficult. It would be much more simpler just to lead poor victims into big enough underground and fill it with water.

[siwiec]

Now you are ready to accept my point
IF such a big number of victims (200) was forced to enter into so small chamber (16 m2)
THEN most likely they would try to resist and probably the guard would have to use fire, to shot those who disobey.
BUT we unaware about reports of such shootings
SO (and it is my point) number of victims in (small) gas chambers was much lower that theoretical capacity (200)

Not really. Regarding "inevitable" mass shootings, nothing so far indicates that it did happen. From that we can only conclude that either your assumptions regarding the process are just simply wrong, or that there are some other factor or factors which made the process smoother (although, according to witnesses some resistance did occur), or that for some reason or other guards restrained from using firearms (e.g. because using them would blow up the story about baths).

Gas chambers in this context is not the best possible solution for industrial grade executions. It is too complicated, technically difficult. It would be much more simpler just to lead poor victims into big enough underground and fill it with water.

It is of course fun to play with the ideas like "Nazis would have done it this way", but perhaps it is best just stick to evidence.

[wm]

The "end game" happened very fast, the victim were deceived as long as possible (most importantly by their own compatriots), so they were wishfully seeing their surroundings and all what happened, and then simply had no time to react. Any resistance was crushed immediately using extreme violence.
The guards knew all the possible individual and group reactions, and were prepared for them. After all they were been doing that many times - but the victims for the first time.

[Sergey Romanov]

Also, note, that after complicated ‘packing process’ exhaust gases or other poisonous gases would not be needed. Without ventilation the victims would die soon.

It is absolutely correct that people would have died this or that way. It doesn't follow that the exhaust "was not needed". First of all, the use of the gasoline exhaust made *sure* that everybody was dead, to prevent any eventualities. It also shortened the time frame. It also allowed to gas smaller groups of people.

[snpol]

Also, note, that after complicated ‘packing process’ exhaust gases or other poisonous gases would not be needed. Without ventilation the victims would die soon.

It is absolutely correct that people would have died this or that way. It doesn't follow that the exhaust "was not needed". First of all, the use of the gasoline exhaust made *sure* that everybody was dead, to prevent any eventualities. It also shortened the time frame. It also allowed to gas smaller groups of people.

It is an apparent paradox - the Nazis had the plan to exterminate Jewish people and taking into account German pedantism, efficiency (even in such a dirty business) they no doubt would use industrial grade procedures. Alleged mass extermination in a chamber with size 16m2 doesn't look as industrial grade one.
I suppose that such a small gas chamber could be used for execution of relatively small groups of victims.
I have to repeat that the very procedure of placement of 200 people into very small chamber looks as too complicated, impractical and thus improbable.

[alanlee]

Also, note, that after complicated ‘packing process’ exhaust gases or other poisonous gases would not be needed. Without ventilation the victims would die soon.

It is absolutely correct that people would have died this or that way. It doesn't follow that the exhaust "was not needed". First of all, the use of the gasoline exhaust made *sure* that everybody was dead, to prevent any eventualities. It also shortened the time frame. It also allowed to gas smaller groups of people.

It is an apparent paradox - the Nazis had the plan to exterminate Jewish people and taking into account German pedantism, efficiency (even in such a dirty business) they no doubt would use industrial grade procedures. Alleged mass extermination in a chamber with size 16m2 doesn't look as industrial grade one.
I suppose that such a small gas chamber could be used for execution of relatively small groups of victims.
I have to repeat that the very procedure of placement of 200 people into very small chamber looks as too complicated, impractical and thus improbable.

Agreed, this type of room is too small to achieve the goal, as said, to exterminate all Jewish people. The industrial size still not achieve the proper level in Germany in that time.