Warcrimes of the "Wiking" Division

[dshaday]

Hi

Does anyone know if the NKVD did indeed execute 8,000 people at Husiatyn in July 1941? Or is this testimony by Kurt Lundin untrue? Intuitively, I find the notion of 8,000 mutilated bodies in a cellar hard to imagine/possible. Did this event possibly spark Jewish killings by Wiking and the locals ?

My basic Internet searches readily mention the 200 Jewish victims of 6 July 1941, but are silent on the deaths of any others at Husiatyn. Why is it hard to find a reference to so many victims from 1 day/place? Is it known by another name?

Dennis

[michael mills]

You might like to consult this book by Bogdan Musial, a Polish historian who exposed the mislabelling of victims of NKVD executions as victims of German atrocities, by the exhibition "Crimes of the Wehrmacht".

"Konterrevolutionäre Elemente sind zu erschiessen" : die Brutalisierung des deutsch-sowjetischen Krieges im Sommer 1941", published Berlin : Propyläen, 2000

I read the book some years ago, and I cannot remember whether Husiatyn is specifically mentioned. However, Musial gives many examples of cellars filled with the mutilated bodies of Ukrainians killed by NKVD units just before the latter retreated in the face of the advancing Germans.

Musial attributes the mutilated state of the bodies to their having been killed with hand grenades, that being the most efficient way to kill a large number of prisoners at the same time. The NKVD packed the prisoners into cellars and then threw in hand grenades, the destructive effect of which was magnified in the enclosed space. That method of killing would explain why so many mutilated bodies were found in small spaces.

[Rob - wssob2]

You might like to consult this book by Bogdan Musial, a Polish historian who exposed the mislabelling of victims of NKVD executions as victims of German atrocities, by the exhibition "Crimes of the Wehrmacht".

We’re covering old ground here - see the response I posted (Incident #8)
in thread http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &p=1271702

To sum up the controversy: When the exhibit was first launched, Polish historian Bogdan Musial claimed that the exhibit has misattributed a number of photographs taken in Zloczow, Tarnopol and Lemberg. Accourding to Musial, these particular photographs didn’t show Wehrmacht or SS atrocities. Several showed the corpses of civilians shot by the NKVD before they retreated from the German advance. Musial also claimed that one of the photos showed the corpses of Jews killed by Ukrainian nationalists and not the Wehrmacht. The Institute pulled the exhibit, and convened a bunch of scholars together to re-examine the evidence. Of the 1,400 photos in the exhibit, a total of NINE (less than 1%) were found to be misattributed. The captions were fixed, the reformatted exhibit went out and eventually became a book, published in English as The German Army and Genocide.

As for the 8,000 victims mentioned by Swedish Waffen-SS volunteer Lundin, it's either a gross exaggeration or a misattribution.

[Rob - wssob2]

Your original post claimed a clear correlation of all known war crimes in a specific part of Galizia to Wiking having been in those same locations. This is the exaggeration I am obviously refering to. I disagree with this exaggerated claim. There is no "semantic and likely deliberate - misinterpretation" of your post. What you now post (as above) has a different meaning altogether.

As Ronald Reagan said, “There you go again…"

As for the rest of your last post, you are taking much of what I posted out of context and twisting it's obvious meaning. In fact, it is you who are bogging them down in deliberate misinterpretations.

And what exactly am I twisting?

As you know, the "dubious claims" I mentioned refers to the "pattern" of posts you brought up (between you and me over the last year or so). Same with the exaggerations and raw quotes without context, I have seen you make. As recently illustrated by the example of the raw quote from a Wiking member you posted in this thread.

You refused to answer my question: Do you think that the Holocaust in the Ukraine is exaggerated? Or just the Wiking Division’s role in genocide?

You are right that I presumed you had read the source you were quoting to support your point of view. Since it would be unethical and unscholarly behaviour by you to do this with a source you have not even read.

I haven’t read Uncle Tom’s Cabin either. I can however, mention that it’s a published work that documents the immorality of slavery. Would that be unethical or unscholarly of me? According to your “standards” - it would be.

I expect basic honesty, which appears lacking. Of course this has nothing to do with the book's author etc. It is also disappointing to see padded out posts with links to sites, where the information relevant to this thread could have been summarised in a simple paragraph - and saved time/effort.

Waffen-SS fanbois often hate when one points out the inherent humanity of Waffen-SS victims. It’s so inconvenient, and gets in the way of applauding the formation’s camouflage acumen.

I too have sensed AHF posters froth at the mouth - but in attempts to spin all sorts of negative claims/comments about the Waffen SS with sarcastic retorts, exaggerations and stories. We all know that the Waffen SS had it's issues,

So committing genocide - the systematic elimination of all, or a significant part of, a racial, ethnic, religious, cultural or national group - is just an “issue”?

but I am surprised when posters invent extra stuff or do cartwheels when they cannot provide sources for their claims (or use sources they have not read).

Since you are unable or unwilling to conduct research on your own, I am happy to provide a synopsis of Kai Struve’s book chapter on the Wiking Division’s genocidal war crimes. Stay tuned.

[Rob - wssob2]

Here's a synopsis of the first couple of pages:

The death of the SS Westland Regiment’s commander was the trigger for the division’s murder spree. SS-Sandartenführer Hilmar Wäckerle was KIA by a Red Army sniper on July 2, 1941 while advancing towards Zoločiv (aka (Zloczow or Zolochiv). There are conflicting accounts from Waffen-SS sources as to the circumstances to his death - some account claim he was shot in the back; others that he was shot from a hidden sniper hidden while investigating an abandoned Red Army tank; a third claims the sniper was hidden in a tree line.

Wäckerlo was killed circa 11AM, but news to avenge the death of the battalion commander seems to have spread among the unit by mid afternoon. In response, troops from the division set fire to the village of Velyka Vil'šanycja (Olszanica), shooting random civilians as they passed through the locale. - the source for this allegation seems to be the war diary of the 2nd Company of the division’s anti-tank unit.

July 3 saw 295th Infantry Division complaints to the IV Army Corps about the Wiking’s poor traffic discipline in Zolochiv, specificly how the Waffen-SS troops had halted to shoot suspicious civilians, specifically citing orders that "Individual members of the Division will now hunt on Jews.” („Einzelne Angehörige der Division gehen inzwischen auf Juden jaggen.“)

[michael mills]

What was the substance of the complaints? That the Wiking Division was blocking the advance of units behind them?

[dshaday]

Hi

As for the 8,000 victims mentioned by Swedish Waffen-SS volunteer Lundin, it's either a gross exaggeration or a misattribution.

Did you suspect this before or after you posted Lundin's raw interview?
Or was this not important to your discussion of Wiking's war crimes?

Dennis

[dshaday]

Hi

Your original post claimed a clear correlation of all known war crimes in a specific part of Galizia to Wiking having been in those same locations. This is the exaggeration I am obviously refering to. I disagree with this exaggerated claim. There is no "semantic and likely deliberate - misinterpretation" of your post. What you now post (as above) has a different meaning altogether.

Are you having trouble seeing the difference in your two statements (underlining is my emphasis) ? They are quite different. They do not just differ in semantics, but in their meaning/conclusion.

" if you document all the Ukrainian villages on the Wiking route of advance during the summer of 1941 from Waffen-SS books and then cross-reference them with Holocaust historical material about the opening phases of Barbarossa- you see the same place name crop up."

and

"What I am pointing out is this: Some unit had to commit genocidal acts in these towns. It stands to reason that there is a greater chance of the acts being committed by units that are historically documented to have been in those towns."

As for the rest of your last post, you are taking much of what I posted out of context and twisting it's obvious meaning. In fact, it is you who are bogging them down in deliberate misinterpretations.

And what exactly am I twisting?

For example:
* padding your post with unnecessary links wrt the topic is interpreted by you as my being uncomfortable with the history of a Jewish community.
* asking details about the methodology used in a source paper you cite is interpreted as a slur on that paper, a slur on the United States Holocaust Memorial and even a slur on it's author.
* questioning your problematic quote by Lundin is interpreted as a possible belief in the Holocaust in the Ukraine being exaggerated.
* questioning your problematic quote by Lundin is interpreted as a possible belief in the Wiking Division’s role in genocide being exaggerated.

I want to get to the bottom of what actually happened, and cut through the guesses, assumptions and pet agendas. You seem to have a big chip on your shoulders about the Holocaust and Jewish communities.

Do you think that the Holocaust in the Ukraine is exaggerated? Or just the Wiking Division’s role in genocide?

Of course there was a holocaust in the Ukraine/Poland. What I cannot understand is why in this thread you post flawed evidence to support your description of it and the role of Wiking. I am not an expert in this area, and you should have noticed that I have not made any claims about Wiking's responsibility or the scale of the holocaust in Poland/Ukraine - my opinion on these questions is not yet formed. What I have seen so far looks like unimpressive sources (apart from the Finnish diary entries) flawed analysis and baggage.

I haven’t read Uncle Tom’s Cabin either. I can however, mention that it’s a published work that documents the immorality of slavery. Would that be unethical or unscholarly of me? According to your “standards” - it would be.

To use your analogy, I find it unethical to quote Uncle Tom's Cabin as a source and assume specific incidents are in the book and therefore proof of your argument. Especially when you do not know what the book actually says about said detailed incidents.

Waffen-SS fanbois often hate when one points out the inherent humanity of Waffen-SS victims. It’s so inconvenient, and gets in the way of applauding the formation’s camouflage acumen.

This is a silly comment about 4 unnecessary links and 1 unnecessary book reference provided in your post. I find all life valuable, regardless of nationality, culture, religion or race. I am therefore not too concerned about the nuts and bolts of the last 300 year history of a particular town in Poland (repeated several times) and a picture of a synagogue - when the topic of conversation is warcrimes of the Wiking Division in 1941. I am also interested in the Poles and Ukranians killed by the NKVD which you do not talk about.

So committing genocide - the systematic elimination of all, or a significant part of, a racial, ethnic, religious, cultural or national group - is just an “issue”?

As you can clearly see, my comment about the Waffen SS having "it's issues" was a general one that did not focus on genocide alone. You are making a mountain out of a grammatical molehill. There is no need for me to alter my post as it is accurate and appropriate.

Since you are unable or unwilling to conduct research on your own,...

You are quick (again) to make assumptions. What I asked for was " a rundown of the highlights of this chapter so we know what type of proof has been used " to support your statement that the two claims made by Lundin is his interview actually happened. This is not a request for you to do my research on the Holocaust - that would be silly. This request is in line with forum rules when a sources is posted by people (as you have done). Be my guest if you wish to broaden the discussion of Wiking warcrimes.

Dennis

[David Thompson]

dshaday -- Drop the personal remarks.

[dshaday]

Hi

Wäckerlo was killed circa 11AM, but news to avenge the death of the battalion commander seems to have spread among the unit by mid afternoon. In response, troops from the division set fire to the village of Velyka Vil'šanycja (Olszanica), shooting random civilians as they passed through the locale. - the source for this allegation seems to be the war diary of the 2nd Company of the division’s anti-tank unit.

Wächkerle was with Westland. Apparently, the war diary of II/Westland gives the source for the sniper shot as coming from the local village, so this village was presumably the one used for the reprisal.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Rt ... nd&f=false

There is mentioned in a diary extract (2 July 1941) of a Dutch soldier from Westland that the sniper was a franc tireur.
http://training.ehri-project.eu/sites/d ... e%20A5.pdf

Dennis

Edit: Added link to II/Westland war diary comment (link also describes the various versions of how Wächkerle was reported to have died).

[simsalabim]

The Dutch NIOD Institute has at least three war diairies of soldiers belonging to the Westland Regiment that contain passages suggestion a direct participation in murdering the jews of Tarnopol. The research by dutch historian Evertjan van Roekel was published in the Historisch Nieuwsblad and later in his book "Jongens van Nederland".

[Dimitrii]

Well, looks like the 'evidence' against Wiking is flimsy at very best and mostly non-existant. Thanks for this helpful thread!

[dshaday]

Hi

Well, looks like the 'evidence' against Wiking is flimsy at very best and mostly non-existant. Thanks for this helpful thread!

As mentioned earlier, I personally believe that Wiking committed war crimes. It was the nature of the war in the East. The diary entries of various volunteers are sad testimony to this, for example. I also suspect that most Wehrmacht combat units who spent any serious time in Russia committed war crimes as well.

Was Wiking noticeably bad regarding war crimes over it's whole period of combat? I do not know.
Were there Army units with a worse record? I do not know.
Was Wiking of 1941 (when many of these crimes are being attributed to it) any different in culture and behaviour to Wiking of say 1943?

Some personal observations I have noted about some posts so far:
Most of the war crimes being discussed are from the first few weeks of the campaign in 1941. Wiking fought for years in the East.
Shoddy posts using dubious or ambiguous data/conclusions make the war-crimes argument against Wiking look flimsy. When in fact they may be wholly or partly true.
Poor referral to a published reference (that a poster has not even read) as proof of war crimes by Wiking, also make the war-crimes argument against Wiking look shoddy.

Dennis

[Dimitrii]

Hi

Well, looks like the 'evidence' against Wiking is flimsy at very best and mostly non-existant. Thanks for this helpful thread!

As mentioned earlier, I personally believe that Wiking committed war crimes. It was the nature of the war in the East. The diary entries of various volunteers are sad testimony to this, for example. I also suspect that most Wehrmacht combat units who spent any serious time in Russia committed war crimes as well.

Was Wiking noticeably bad regarding war crimes over it's whole period of combat? I do not know.
Were there Army units with a worse record? I do not know.
Was Wiking of 1941 (when many of these crimes are being attributed to it) any different in culture and behaviour to Wiking of say 1943?

Some personal observations I have noted about some posts so far:
Most of the war crimes being discussed are from the first few weeks of the campaign in 1941. Wiking fought for years in the East.
Shoddy posts using dubious or ambiguous data/conclusions make the war-crimes argument against Wiking look flimsy. When in fact they may be wholly or partly true.
Poor referral to a published reference (that a poster has not even read) as proof of war crimes by Wiking, also make the war-crimes argument against Wiking look shoddy.

Dennis

Hi,

A very good post. I agree that the warfare in Russia could hardly be seen as civilised for many reasons. That being said, most if not all of the case against Wiking is indeed speculation, hearsay and would-like-to-believe. Any serious evidence is lacking.

[Rob - wssob2]

Well, looks like the 'evidence' against Wiking is flimsy at very best and mostly non-existant. Thanks for this helpful thread!

And denial, after a brief respite, rears it ugly head again!

George Stein in his 1966 book The Waffen-SS mentions the Wiking division's role in the execution of 600 Galacian Jews
"as a reprisal for Soviet cruelties" on p272 and cites Reitlinger's 1957 book The SS: Alibi of a Nation, 1922-45 p157 as the source.

The primary source document for this may be the Einsatagruppen Operational Situation Report USSR No. 19 (July 11, 1941).

The Wiking Division's warcrimes have been recently documented in the chapter Verbrechen der Waffen-SS Division „Wiking“ in Kai Struve's recent book Deutsche Herrschaft, ukrainischer Nationalismus, antijüdische Gewalt (German Rule, Ukrainian Nationalism, and Anti-Semitic Violence: The Summer of 1941 in Western Ukraine)
See http://www.degruyter.com/viewbooktoc/product/428721

A holocaust scholar devotes an entire chapter to the Wiking division's genocide during the summer of 1941 in the Ukraine, and includes quotes from official German Army documentation on how the SS troops are killing Jewish civilians to which you respond, "Any serious evidence is lacking." Go figure.

A very good post. I agree that the warfare in Russia could hardly be seen as civilised for many reasons.

One reason being that division's like the SS-Wiking were committing genocide.

I'll continue posting material from Kai Struve's book.