"Seidler-De Zayas list" of American war crimes

[David Thompson]

Here is a translation of the list of alleged American war crimes against German armed forces and civilians in WWII, compiled by Prof. Franz Seidler and Alfred de Zayas in their „Kriegsverbrechen in Europa und im Nahen Osten im 20. Jahrhundert.," as posted by fknorr. I have taken the liberty of dividing the allegations into dated and undated events, with the dated events arranged chronologically and the undated events arranged in order of appearance in the text. The German text from which the translation was made follows each entry, so our readers don't have to rely on my rough German "skills."

A. Dated Events

(1) Charantan, Normandy (14 Jun 1944) A captured NCO named Fanja was killed by a neck shot. (CharantanlNormandie (14. 6. 1944): Der Unteroffizier Fanja wurde nach der Gefangennahme durch Genick schuß getötet.)

(2) Culot, Normandy (Jul 1944): Out of control shooting of captured German soldiers, or shooting out of control German PoWs. (Culot/Normandie (Juli 1944): Erschießung in Gefangenschaft geratener deutscher Soldaten.)

(3) Le Mans (7 Aug 1944): Multiple shootings of captured SS men from Combat Group Fick of the 17th SS PanzerGrenadier Division "Goetz von Berlichingen." (Le Mans (7. B. 1944): Aus der Kampfgruppe Fick der 17. SS-Pz.-Gren.-Division. „Götz von Berlichingen” wurden mehrere gefangene SS-Männer erschossen.)

(4) Klein Punach near Metz (20 Sept 1944): Prisoners were called out of a main group and shot in the back. (Klein Punach bei Metz (20. 9. 1944): Gefangene wurden zum Weggehen aufgefordert und in den
Rücken geschossen.)

(5) Waldhausen: On 11 Jan 1945 10 captured SS soldiers were shot by the Americans. (Waldhausen (11. 1. 1945): 10 gefangene SS-Soldaten werden von US-Amerikanern erschossen.)

(6) Tiefenbach (Easter Sunday 1945): Three captured Waffen-SS men were shot by Americans. (Tiefenbach (Osterdienstag 1945): Drei Kriegsgefangene der Waffen-SS werden von US-Amerikanern er-schossen.)

(7) Willenbacherhof (10 Apr 1945): Between 10 and 20 wounded German PoWs were shot by the Americans. (Willenbacherhof (10. 4. 1945): 10 bis 20 verwundete und gefangene deutsche Soldaten von US-Amerikanern erschossen.)

(8) Hermersberg: On 11 Apr 1945 a German soldier was strangled to death by an American with a wire garotte and a spade. (Hermersberg (11. 4. 1945): Landser mit Drahtschlingen erdrosselt und mit Spaten von US-Amerikanern totgeschlagen.)

(9) Lampoldshausen (Gemeindefriedhof/ Waldstück Fuchsberg): On 13 Apr 1945 six German POWs were shot by Americans. (Lampoldshausen (Gemeindefriedhof/ Waldstück Fuchsberg): 13. 4. 1945: Sechs gefangene deutsche Soldaten von US-Amerikanern erschossen.)

(10) Hermersberg: On 15 Apr 1945 captured SS soldiers were machine-gunned by Americans. (Hermersberg (15. 4. 1945): Gefangene SS-Soldaten werden von hinten mit Maschinengewehren von US-Amerikanern erschossen.)

(11) Harkerode (15 Apr 1945): 16 captured Hitler Youths were shot by Americans in a quarry. (Harkerode (15. April 1945): 16 gefangene Hitlerjungen in einem Steinbruch von US-Amerikanern erschossen.)

(12) Treseburg (18 Apr 1945): 14 hostages, including 11 Hitler Youth, were killed by American neck shots. (Treseburg (18. 4. 1945): 14 Geiseln, darunter 11 Hitlerjungen, durch Genickschüsse durch Amerikaner er-mordet (in Richtung Allrode).)

(13) Lippach near Lauchheim: On 22 Apr 1945 36 German soldiers who had been captured by the Americans were killed by neck shots or by having their heads smashed in ("brained"); about 20 women were raped. (Lippach bei Lauchheim (22. 4. 1945): 36 deutsche Soldaten wurden nach Gefangennahme von US-Amerikanern durch Genickschuß oder Einschlagen der Schädel umgebracht; etwa 20 Frauen vergewaltigt.)

(14) Eberstätten in the provincial district of Pfaffenhofen on the Ilm River: On 28 Apr 1945 German PoWs were placed about 50 meters away and then shot "while attempting to escape." (Eberstätten im Landkreis Pfaffenhofen a. d. Ilm (28. 4. 1945): Deutsche Kriegsgefangene wurden aus etwa 50 Meter Entfernung „auf der Flucht erschossen”.)

(15) Tittling (29 Apr 1945) The mayor was arrested and shot. (Tittling (29. 4. 1945): Festnahme und Erschießung des Bürgermeisters.)

(16) Dachau concentration camp: On 29 Apr 1945 134 members of the guard battalion were executed by American machine-gun fire and 40 others were killed by prisoners. (KL-Dachau (29. 4. 1945): 134 Angehörige des Wachsturmbannes durch amerikanisches MG-Feuer und 40 weitere durch Häftlinge ermordet.)

(17) Dachau concentration camp: On 29 Apr 1945 346 severely injured patients at the Dachau military hospital, along with nurses, doctors, kitchen personnel and others were killed by American machine-gun fire. The SS personnel were not part of the concentration camp cadre, but belonged to the 5th Training Battalion of the "Wiking" Division. (KL-Dachau (29. 4. 1945): 346 Schwer- und Schwerstverwundete des Dachauer Kriegslazarettes, sowie Schwestern, Arzte, Küchenpersonal u.a. durch amerikanische MG-Salven ermordet. Die SS-Leute gehörten nicht zu der Stammannschaft, sondern zum Ausbildungs-Btl. 5 der Division „Wiking”.)

(18) Mauerkirchen-Altheim near Braunau on the Inn River: On 30 Apr 1945 there was (Ausplünderung -- plunder, pillage, spoliation, looting, sacking, rape, despoilment, pilferage, scavenging) of German soldiers. (Mauerkirchen-Altheim bei Braunau/ Inn (30. 4. 1945): Ausplünderung deutscher Soldaten.)

(19) Kleinweil (Großweil postal service): On 30 Apr 1945 two captured German soldiers were shot by the Americans. (Kleinweil (Post Großweil) – 30. 4. 1945: Erschießung von zwei deutschen gefangenen Soldaten durch US-Amerikaner.)

(20) Trassheim near Ruderfing (1 May 1945): US soldiers shot two civilians. (Trassheim bei Ruderfing (1. 5. 1945): US-Soldaten erschießen zwei Zivilisten.)

(21) Oberframmern (1 May 1945): Seven German PoWs were driven to the Dorfstrasse (Dorf Street or perhaps the main road through the town) and shot by the Americans. (Oberframmern (1. 5. 1945): Sieben deutsche Kriegsgefangene wurden von US-Amerikanern durch die Dorfstraße getrieben und erschossen.)

(22) On the way to Altheim, at the beginning of May 1945, Americans shot German PoWs who were too tired to keep up with the column of prisoners. (Verlegung nach Altheim (Anfang Mai 1945): US-Amerikaner erschießen deutsche Gefangene, die aus der Kolonne liefen oder wegen Erschöpfung nicht mehr weiter konnten.)

B. Undated events:

(1) Erching (at the customs house): A captured German NCO was shot by an American. (Erching (Zollhaus): Gefangener deutscher Unteroffizier wurde von Amerikanern erschossen.)

(2) Herbolzheim: Seven SS soldiers who were captured by the Americans were shot. (Herbolzheim: Sieben SS-Soldaten werden nach Gefangennahme von US-Amerikanern erschossen.)

(3) Kressbach: Six captured SS men were killed by neck shots. (Kressbach: Sechs gefangene SS-Männer durch Genickschuß getötet.)

(4) Neuenbeken field hospital: Two wounded SS soldiers were taken out of their beds and then executed by neck shots. (Feldlazarett Neuenbeken: Zwei verwundete SS-Soldaten wurden aus den Betten geholt und durch Genickschüsse erschossen.)

(5) Nordborchen: A number of captured SS soldiers were shot. (Nordborchen: Erschießung von mehreren gefangenen SS-Soldaten.)

(6) Friedhof von Etteln: 27 captured SS soldiers were killed by neck shots. (Friedhof von Etteln: 27 gefangene SS-Soldaten durch Genickschuß getötet.)

(7) Henglan: Four German prisoners were shot. (Henglan: Erschießung von vier deutschen Gefangenen.)

(8) Paderborn area: Approximately 30 German soldiers and Hitler Youth were shot through the head; a couple of them were tied up. (Raum Paderborn: etwa 30 deutsche Soldaten und Hitlerjungen wurden durch Kopfschüsse getötet (einige starben gefesselt).)

(9) Northwest Upper Harz in the Paderborn area: Approximately 100 captured German soldiers were murdered. (Nordwestlicher Oberharz/Raum Paderborn: Etwa 100 gefangene deutsche Soldaten ermordet.)

(10) Northwest Upper Harz around Osnabrueck: 17 SS soldiers were executed by neck shots. Five dedicated Hitler Youths were hanged by Americans from a tree. (Nordwestlicher Oberharz/Osnabrück: 17 SS-Soldaten durch Genickschuß umgebracht. Fünf Hitlerjungen wer-den, nachdem sie sich ergaben, von den US-Amerikanern an einen Baum gehängt und totgeprügelt.)

(11) Offenhausen near Hersbruck: Three young Waffen-SS PoWs were shot by Americans. (Offenhausen bei Hersbruck: Drei gefangene junge Soldaten der Waffen-SS wurden von US-Amerikanern erschossen.)

(12) Waschbach near Bad Mergentheim: Drunken Americans raped women and young girls. (Waschbach bei Bad Mergentheim: Betrunkene US-Amerikaner vergewaltigen Frauen und Mädchen.)

(13) Pfaffenhofen: Americans shot 17 captured German soldiers. (Pfaffenhofen: US-Amerikaner erschießen 17 gefangene deutsche Soldaten.)

(14) North of Dachau – Webling: A number of captured German soldiers from Battle Group Truchsess were shot. (Nördlich von Dachau – Webling: mehrere gefangene deutsche Soldaten der Kampfgruppe von Truchseß wurden erschossen.)

(15) Eggstätt near Endorf: Americans shot two German soldiers, after making them dig their own graves. (Eggstätt bei Endorf: US-Amerikaner erschießen zwei Soldaten, die vorher ihre Grablöcher schaufeln mußten.)

(16) Atenau: American troops shot all German soldiers who were trying to surrender. (Atenau: US-Amerikaner erschießen alle Soldaten, die sich vorher ergeben hatten.)

(17) Hengersberg(?): Americans shot the mayor, his wife, two schoolchildren and a "Zufallszeugen." (Hengersberg(?): Erschießung des Bürgermeisters, seiner Frau, zwei schulpflichtigen Kindern und eines Zufallszeugen durch die Amis.)

(18) In the hamlet of Zell, 18 captured anti-aircraft troops were murdered by neck shots. (Ortschaft Zell: 18 Flaksoldaten wurden nach Gefangennahme durch Genickschuß ermordet.)

[Panzermahn]

Hi David,

that is one hell of a great list that you have provided for everyone of us..Thanks and thanks a lot!!! Really appreciate it!!!!


Actually, besides David Irving and Antony Beevor, another of my favourite author was the Spanish American UN human rights jurists was Professor Alfred Maurice de Zayas..His books are very very well researched and to this date, no historians or readers had accuse him of being a Neo-Nazi or a revisionist...




http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

[Penn44]

Hi David,

that is one hell of a great list that you have provided for everyone of us..Thanks and thanks a lot!!! Really appreciate it!!!!


Actually, besides David Irving and Antony Beevor, another of my favourite author was the Spanish American UN human rights jurists was Professor Alfred Maurice de Zayas..His books are very very well researched and to this date, no historians or readers had accuse him of being a Neo-Nazi or a revisionist...

Panzermahn:

It is unfortunate that you don't understand the difficulty of working with alleged war crimes cases. Many alleged war crimes cases turn out to be false, exaggerated, or have mitigating circumstances. The list of war crimes provided are mostly unproven allegations. Given the number of American soldiers fighting against the Germans, the number of alleged cases provided is relatively small. Before you start celebrating and claiming this list "proves" something, you need to see the enormous volume of alleged German war crimes cases in the [US] National Archives.

Alleged war crimes cases works both ways. Bob Kesting, a USHMM historian wrote an article, "Blacks in the Holocaust" for the Journal of Negro History. Like you, he produced a laundry list of alleged German war crimes against blacks. He used the original alleged war crimes case files. However, the quality of the original investigations was not always great and the information sometimes available to the original investigators was often limited. I investigated several of these alleged cases and found them to be false or unsubstantiated. The simple parroting of alleged war crimes cases doesn't prove anything unless the historian goes back and re-examines the evidence, cross-checks sources, and re-interviews witnesses.


Penn44



.

[fknorr]

Thanks David!

[WalterS]

Penn 44 wrote

The simple parroting of alleged war crimes cases doesn't prove anything unless the historian goes back and re-examines the evidence, cross-checks sources, and re-interviews witnesses.

Well said, Penn. However, it is most unchivalrous of you to rain on Panzermahn's celebration.

[Andreas]

David
First of all congratulations on your German. I have tried to improve those translations where I could find a few small mistakes, and posted these below.

A. Dated Events

(2) Culot, Normandy (Jul 1944): Shooting of captured German soldiers. (Culot/Normandie (Juli 1944): Erschießung in Gefangenschaft geratener deutscher Soldaten.)

(4) Klein Punach near Metz (20 Sept 1944): Prisoners were told to leave and shot in the back. (Klein Punach bei Metz (20. 9. 1944): Gefangene wurden zum Weggehen aufgefordert und in den
Rücken geschossen.)

(8 ) Hermersberg: On 11 Apr 1945 a German soldier (could be multiple, the German is not clear) was strangled to death by an American with a wire garotte and a spade. (Hermersberg (11. 4. 1945): Landser mit Drahtschlingen erdrosselt und mit Spaten von US-Amerikanern totgeschlagen.)

(9) Lampoldshausen (village cemetary/ Forest Fuchsberg): On 13 Apr 1945 six German POWs were shot by Americans. (Lampoldshausen (Gemeindefriedhof/ Waldstück Fuchsberg): 13. 4. 1945: Sechs gefangene deutsche Soldaten von US-Amerikanern erschossen.)

(10) Hermersberg: On 15 Apr 1945 captured SS soldiers were machine-gunned from behind by Americans. (Hermersberg (15. 4. 1945): Gefangene SS-Soldaten werden von hinten mit Maschinengewehren von US-Amerikanern erschossen.)

(14) Eberstätten in the provincial district of Pfaffenhofen on the Ilm River: On 28 Apr 1945 German PoWs were shot at about 50 meters distance while attempting to escape." (Eberstätten im Landkreis Pfaffenhofen a. d. Ilm (28. 4. 1945): Deutsche Kriegsgefangene wurden aus etwa 50 Meter Entfernung „auf der Flucht erschossen”.)

(17) Dachau concentration camp: On 29 Apr 1945 346 severely and critically injured patients at the Dachau military hospital, along with nurses, doctors, kitchen personnel and others were killed by American machine-gun fire. The SS personnel were not part of the concentration camp cadre, but belonged to the 5th Training Battalion of the "Wiking" Division. (KL-Dachau (29. 4. 1945): 346 Schwer- und Schwerstverwundete des Dachauer Kriegslazarettes, sowie Schwestern, Arzte, Küchenpersonal u.a. durch amerikanische MG-Salven ermordet. Die SS-Leute gehörten nicht zu der Stammannschaft, sondern zum Ausbildungs-Btl. 5 der Division „Wiking”.)

(18 ) Mauerkirchen-Altheim near Braunau on the Inn River: On 30 Apr 1945 German soldiers had their belongings stolen/looted. (Mauerkirchen-Altheim bei Braunau/ Inn (30. 4. 1945): Ausplünderung deutscher Soldaten.)

(21) Oberframmern (1 May 1945): Seven German PoWs were drivenherded to the Dorfstrasse (High Street) and shot by the Americans. (Oberframmern (1. 5. 1945): Sieben deutsche Kriegsgefangene wurden von US-Amerikanern durch die Dorfstraße getrieben und erschossen.)

(22) On the way to Altheim, at the beginning of May 1945, Americans shot German PoWs who left the march column or were too tired to keep up with it. (Verlegung nach Altheim (Anfang Mai 1945): US-Amerikaner erschießen deutsche Gefangene, die aus der Kolonne liefen oder wegen Erschöpfung nicht mehr weiter konnten.)

B. Undated events:

(1) Erching (at the customs house): A captured German NCO was shot by Americans. (Erching (Zollhaus): Gefangener deutscher Unteroffizier wurde von Amerikanern erschossen.)

(7) Henglan: Four German prisoners were shot. (Henglan: Erschießung von vier deutschen Gefangenen.)

(10) Northwest Upper Harz around Osnabrueck: 17 SS soldiers were executed by neck shots. Five Hitler Youths are, after their surrender, hanged by Americans from a tree and beaten to death. (Nordwestlicher Oberharz/Osnabrück: 17 SS-Soldaten durch Genickschuß umgebracht. Fünf Hitlerjungen wer-den, nachdem sie sich ergaben, von den US-Amerikanern an einen Baum gehängt und totgeprügelt.)

(16) Atenau: American troops shot all German soldiers who were had surrendered earlier. (Atenau: US-Amerikaner erschießen alle Soldaten, die sich vorher ergeben hatten.)

(17) Hengersberg(?): Americans shot the mayor, his wife, two children of school age and an accidental witness (Hengersberg(?): Erschießung des Bürgermeisters, seiner Frau, zwei schulpflichtigen Kindern und eines Zufallszeugen durch die Amis.)

Strange list - is it just me, or is there no mention of German soldiers shot during the Ardennes offensive?

[fknorr]

Strange list - is it just me, or is there no mention of German soldiers shot during the Ardennes offensive?

I do not believe it is an all inclusive list....

[David Thompson]

Andreas wrote:

Strange list - is it just me, or is there no mention of German soldiers shot during the Ardennes offensive?

fknorr replied:

I do not believe it is an all inclusive list....

The list left me with a lot of questions. It seemed thinly documented for an academic work. After looking at it closely I wanted to find out more about some of the incidents.

In what context did this list appear, fknorr? Where did you find it? Is it an original compilation by Seidler and De Zayas which appeared in „Kriegsverbrechen in Europa und im Nahen Osten im 20. Jahrhundert?" Did the professors provide sources (interviews, military reports, courts of inquiry, etc.) to go with the original list, which for some reason were omitted here?

Do you know how the list was put together? Did the incidents come with any more detail than we see here? Was there any disclaimer saying that this was just a sample list; not an all inclusive list?

[fknorr]

Do you know how the list was put together? Did the incidents come with any more detail than we see here? Was there any disclaimer saying that this was just a sample list; not an all inclusive list?

David,

All I know is that is was forwarded to me by a "SS" researcher because he knows of my love of history and a cus on the SS. All that was staed to me was that is was from the November issue (last year 2003) of Der Freiwillige. I do not have the issue in hand or I would make copies/scans for all that were interested or forward to you for you to do as you see fit.

I have the address to order a subscription to this magazine but have not yet sent it out (it is in German and payment must be made in Euros/DMs)

I am hoping to find out more about this list, the who, what, where, why and hows but have not had the time as of yet. Nothing sinister or attempting to hide the other side, just a lot on my plate right now.

[David Thompson]

In trying to find out more about some of these incidents, I came across a substantially similar list, captioned Großdeutschland am Galgen: EIN VOGELFREIES VOLK at http://www.die-kommenden.net/dk/artikel ... elfrei.htm

The source given at that site is not the Seidler and De Zayas book, but Heinz Meyer, Damals, Der Zweite Weltkrieg zwischen Teutoburger Wald, Weser und Leine, Verlag K. W. Schütz, Preuß. Oldendorf 1981, S. 164 f.zurück. Like the "Seidler-De Zayas list" (I'm going to put it in quotes until its origin becomes clear), there are no stated sources, but there are some additional elements. For example, the "Seidler-De Zayas list" gives this incident:

(15) Tittling (29 Apr 1945) The mayor was arrested and shot. (Tittling (29. 4. 1945): Festnahme und Erschießung des Bürgermeisters.)

The Großdeutschland am Galgen site has the Americans shooting not only the mayor, whose name is given as Karl Bottlen, but also his wife and their four children. (In Atenau erschossen die Amerikaner deutsche Soldaten, die bereits die Waffen weggeworfen und sich ergeben hatten, in Oberndorf den Bauern Stadlen in Kreuzberg den Bauern Josef Atzingen in Tittling bei Passau den Bürgermeister Karl Bottlen Die Frau und die vier Kinder des Ermordeten durften erst am 14. Tag die Leiche begraben.)

A closer examination of these claims may be helpful in resolving some of the contradictions. As for the list of American war crimes, the Großdeutschland am Galgen site proclaims them to be endless. (Die Liste der amerikanischen Kriegsverbrechen, begangen an wehrlosen Deutschen, ist endlos.)

PS -- Andreas, thanks for your helpful assistance with the translation, which I certainly needed and no doubt will continue to need.

[Panzermahn]

Panzermahn:

It is unfortunate that you don't understand the difficulty of working with alleged war crimes cases. Many alleged war crimes cases turn out to be false, exaggerated, or have mitigating circumstances. The list of war crimes provided are mostly unproven allegations. Given the number of American soldiers fighting against the Germans, the number of alleged cases provided is relatively small. Before you start celebrating and claiming this list "proves" something, you need to see the enormous volume of alleged German war crimes cases in the [US] National Archives

Penn44

Professors with international reputation such de Zayas would not simply put a list of so-called alleged war crimes against German soldiers and civillians without any evidence..I'm definitely sure de Zayas had his evidence before compiling the list and place it in his book and it's sure not Nazi pologia

[Andreas]

Andreas wrote:

Strange list - is it just me, or is there no mention of German soldiers shot during the Ardennes offensive?

fknorr replied:

I do not believe it is an all inclusive list....

The list left me with a lot of questions. It seemed thinly documented for an academic work. After looking at it closely I wanted to find out more about some of the incidents.

Exactly my thinking. I am also quite dubious about the complete lack of context in the list.

The Großdeutschland am Galgen site has the Americans shooting not only the mayor, whose name is given as Karl Bottlen, but also his wife and their four children. (In Atenau erschossen die Amerikaner deutsche Soldaten, die bereits die Waffen weggeworfen und sich ergeben hatten, in Oberndorf den Bauern Stadlen in Kreuzberg den Bauern Josef Atzingen in Tittling bei Passau den Bürgermeister Karl Bottlen Die Frau und die vier Kinder des Ermordeten durften erst am 14. Tag die Leiche begraben.)

Your translation is incorrect here David. The wife and children were not shot, but barred from burying the body of the mayor until after 2 weeks.

Which makes me think it could have something to do with forced labourers, or a KZ camp (if there was an Aussenlager nearby), or he just ran around in his Nazi Mayoral uniform and they thought he was Wehrwolf. Any number of possibilities, which is why without some context this list is quite pointless for these sort of incidents. It sounds as if they wanted to set an example for some reason.

[robert knott]

Panzermahn, I might have a tip for ya ... rather than selecting alleged crimes from this list and bringing them up periodically for a discussion on this board ... maybe you can do research and then wait to post the results as a "scoop" in your upcoming book? Nothing wrong with discussing a few details here, but if these subjects are beat to death on this forum, how many will see the need to buy the book? You don't want to shoot all your ammunition before the battle begins! ...just a thought.

[David Thompson]

Andreas -- Thanks for the correction, which I appreciate. I've tried to read more German today than I have over the last year or more.

[TrauerMensch]

Thanks David! Finally it is also recognized that "we bad Germans" were not only offenders but also victims! My grandfather was murdered by the American Army! We could not find his grave! It was difficult! His corpse disappeared! Cause he was buried secretly! The place of his death was “Kamp Lintfort”! Alleged he was still in a field hospital, before it died, because he had no more energy to live! I like it as his grandchild, that the American population is sensitized for this misdemeanour! Could you say more about this place? Please send me a E-Mail