Polish troops in Falaise

[timotheus]

I have also read somewhere that polish soldiers executed german POW's in the Falaise pocket on "maczuga".

There are several ways to look at it:

1) polish soldiers really did execute the german POW's in cold blood. They were surrounded, almost out of ammo, waiting to be linked up with their not so speedy allies to truly close the pocket...Monty should be shot for allowing the Germans to escape polish heroism notwithstanding.

2) polish army in the west grew at an incredible rate. many polish silesians, kaszubs, other ethnic minorities who resided in Poland were drafted FORCIBLY into the wehrmacht - of course, many went gladly because they felt themselves as ethnic germans (volksdeautche) but many went with mixed feelings. It is possible that the polish armed forces integrated many ex wehrmacht POWs into their ranks. How to explain this to their alies?
"Where are the POWs?"
"Ummm, they got lost....or shot...or something....meanwhile we have 50 new replacements in the Kresowa unit"

or

3) this story is full of shit.

[Simon Orchard]

On the subject. iirc, the Poles fighting at Narvik in 1940 were known for a somewhat 'harsh' attitude towards taking prisoners.

[timotheus]

Sources please.

Going with that logic, bulgarian troops were real beasts.

[Alex (F)]

2) polish army in the west grew at an incredible rate. many polish silesians, kaszubs, other ethnic minorities who resided in Poland were drafted FORCIBLY into the wehrmacht - of course, many went gladly because they felt themselves as ethnic germans (volksdeautche) but many went with mixed feelings. It is possible that the polish armed forces integrated many ex wehrmacht POWs into their ranks. How to explain this to their alies?
"Where are the POWs?"
"Ummm, they got lost....or shot...or something....meanwhile we have 50 new replacements in the Kresowa unit"

Timotheus, although it is true about the practice of integrating ethnic Poles from Wermacht into Polish Armed Forces, I don't think in this particular case it can be the explanation why 1000 German POWs just disappeared. The practice of incorporating was official and Polish captain wouldn't have any problems in saying clearly what happened. So if you do not consider case (3) (we still can consider it) you have to consider (1). Of course it is important to have sources and they are not adequate, because we have to rely on witnesses only. Killing POW was not an official policy, but it seemed to be treated leniently by the commanders. From the quoted conversation it looks clear that neither Polish nor American commander did feel uncomfortably about the whole thing.

Considering Musashi's remarks on killing captured SS-members - it is still a crime to kill a captured person without a court sentence. Of course such a crime can be psychologically understood, its severity is much smaller than let say killing a child, but we cannot say it is NOT a crime.

[timotheus]

From my understanding, the poles were surrounded on all sides by the germans fleeing from the Falaise pocket. They were in combat on the hill Maczuga (mace), and all around it. The germans were launching attacks day and night to escape the pocket, with Panthers, Mk IV, horse carts, individual soldiers trying to get through.

The polish book I read stated that they were very low on ammo and afraid of being swamped by the enemy.

Now, in that situation, wuold the poles really have time to shoot so many germans?

[David Thompson]

timotheus -- You asked:

Now, in that situation, wuold the poles really have time to shoot so many germans?

Do you have a source for your description?

[Musashi]

Now, in that situation, wuold the poles really have time to shoot so many germans?

I was the first Pole on the forum, who provided some sources the Poles might have murdered the SS-men and I am still eager to believe they did it (it's more probable than improbable for me). However I have even much more difficult question than you: how is it possible to hide 1000+ dead bodies? There should be a big mass grave in that area and it has not been detected so far. Such a big grave should be easily-detectable from air (I remember NATO planes detected a few mass graves in Bosnia thanks to a special built-in equipment).

Regards,
Krzysiek

[Ze-Pole]

My God... Don't believe all that your read on forums...
Yes, some polish soldiers have killed german soldiers (SS above all). But don't believe that 1000 were killed by them ! How do you want to think that such a story is real ?
I can say that I know very well the story of this famous unit, I have even written a book about it, and I have got about 100 accounts from polish veterans of the First Polish Armored Division. I am in enough confidence with polish veterans to get great accounts, really true. Some of the ex-combattans have mentionned some german killed, but not 1000 !
I have also met german soldier prisonner by the polish trooops on Maczuga (and they mentioned me about 20 german soldiers killed by polish, no more...). The polish veterans said that some SS were killed (with polish men in the Wehrmacht to whom was proposed to join the First Polish Armored Division, but they refused...).
For Chambois, I have about 20 accounts, and no mention about these 1000 killed !
I live in Normandy, I met a lootof veterans, and above all civilian on the polish battlefield, and nobody mentionned many german killed. For the 21th Army Group, the bad beheviour is not the fact of the Polish troops.
The story aboutt he captain Waters : if it was tue, this oficer was necessary ordered to make a report... he never made such a report... the story was written years after the war, it was probably sensational to make such a story...
So, gentlemen, please, don't believe all that can be written...
Ze-Pole

[Kieran Bridge]

To put this in a more accurate context, remember Gen. Eisenhower's description of the aftermath of the Battle of the Falaise Gap: in places it was possible to walk for hundreds of yards, stepping on nothing but dead bodies and decaying flesh.

My father was at St. Lambert and Moissy from August 19-21, 1944, close enough to the Poles that he nearly shot two of them in the dark on the evening of August 20, thinking they were Germans. Those two had become separated from the main body of Polish troops. My father's description of the battlefield on August 21 matches Gen. Eisenhower's. The fields southwest of St. Lambert were covered with dead Germans; he describes them as being, "mowed down in their hundreds" by the Canadians' tanks and machine guns. He also told me that after the battle it was possible to walk over a field the size of a football pitch without touching the ground.

The Canadians at St. Lambert (175 all ranks) took many hundreds of prisoners during their three days of hell. Most, but not all, made it to POW camps. The situation for the Poles nearby was very bad. Nothing would surprise me.

Kieran

[Hauptmann Kloss]

...
The polish book I read stated that they were very low on ammo and afraid of being swamped by the enemy.

Now, in that situation, wuold the poles really have time to shoot so many germans?

That is interesting problem.
When does shooting of unarmed combatant become a crime? It is simple fact, that it is on discretion of each individual soldier/ CO determine when an enemy is a thread to him or the unit.
How large prisoners ratio is needed to become thread for unit facing being overrun by the enemy? Question answered in Europe since battle of Agincourt.

In situation like that question becomes of tactics, not of international law.

I`m not a lawyer, but this is largely grey area. When POWs receive protection? Certainly after being processed and send back from front line. In the heat of the battle, when some are surrendering while other keep fighting bets are off.

[Kieran Bridge]

Here is part of my father's description of the battle of Igoville (near the Seine) on August 26, 1944:

"As we advanced, we were fired on blindly by machine gunners and casualties occurred. An enemy armoured car appeared on our left flank and began firing at us, but did not stay for long and soon beat a retreat over the hill. We reached the top of the hill where the enemy was entrenched, and a short sharp skirmish took place during which many of the enemy surrendered after realizing that they were overrun. In one instance, one of our boys came upon an enemy trench occupied by a terrified infantryman who didn’t know what to do. He stood up with his rifle in his hands. Not knowing the German’s motives and not too sure of himself, our boy hollered out, 'What will I do?' 'Shoot the bastard!' was the response, which he proceeded to do."

Keep in mind that just before this happened, the Canadians had run under fire across a 200 metre field and suffered 50% casualties.

Kieran

[Hauptmann Kloss]

...
Keep in mind that just before this happened, the Canadians had run under fire across a 200 metre field and suffered 50% casualties.

Kieran

As interesting as it is I do not understand why you are bringing it up? Tread deals with implied war crimes, not regular war making like in incident you described. War is not a play. People die.
I`m quite puzzled with units offering stiff and bloody resistance, then attempt to surrender only after being overrun. If position is not taken yet, there is still incentive, but afterwards?

[Kieran Bridge]

The reason I mentioned what preceded the German being shot was that I have heard several veterans say that after similar charges, enemy soldiers who tried to surrender were sometimes shot. The heat of the moment is added to by the fact that one's comrades were being shot at and sometimes killed by the same enemy soldier who moments later may have tried to surrender. I agree, war is not play. Nor is there a clear dividing line between the midst of battle and its end. For that reason, no one should be quick to judge what happened in such circumstances.

Kieran

[Hauptmann Kloss]

The reason I mentioned what preceded the German being shot was that I have heard several veterans say that after similar charges, enemy soldiers who tried to surrender were sometimes shot. The heat of the moment is added to by the fact that one's comrades were being shot at and sometimes killed by the same enemy soldier who moments later may have tried to surrender. I agree, war is not play. Nor is there a clear dividing line between the midst of battle and its end. For that reason, no one should be quick to judge what happened in such circumstances.

Kieran

What I meant is you didn`t described unlawful killing in your post.

[Kieran Bridge]

I tend to agree with you, but I suppose it is a matter of interpretation of the events. Others might take a different view. My point is that there are no clear lines between what is lawful and what is not.