Excavators at Treblinka

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michael mills
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#31

Post by michael mills » 15 May 2004, 04:05

Earldor wrote:
It is a generally known fact that Eichmann either lied about the timeframe of this visit or was mistaken.
A generally known fact?

Or a refusal to accept because Eichmann's account simply does not fit into the preconceptions of some people?

It is certainly true that Eichmann's account of his visits to various locations in the East, given both in his 1957 interviews to Sassen and in his testimony to his Israeli interrogators is imprecise and somewhat confused, with various details scrambled.

However, certain elements in his account represent what we may call snapshot impressions, and are almost certainly true. For example, the image of the police captain working outside in his shirt-sleeves at a camp somewhere in Poland that was under construction is so vivid that it cannot be something that Eichmann made up.

Why would Eichmann invent such a scene? The reason why he specifically remembered that the police captain was in his shirt-sleeves was because he was in uniform except for his jacket, which he had taken off, and to Eichmann's petty bourgeois eyes he presented a sloppy appearance, not being dressed according to regulations, which reinforced other negative impressions that Eichmann had gained of the police captain, such as his coarse south-west German accent and his appearance of being a heavy drinker.

We can accept that when Eichmann visited the camp in a remote part of Poland, which can only have been Belzec, he did see the police captain, who can only have been Wirth, standing outside in his shirt-sleeves. That deatil indicates that the weather was warm enough to be outside wearing only a shirt, which in East Poland cannot be later than early September.

It is details like that that are often crucial for identifying the time of occurrence of particular incidents. For example, the bodies of the Polish officers found buried at Katyn were all wearing heavy winter clothing, indicating that they had not been killed in the high summer of 1941, after the German invasion, as the Soviets claimed, but rather in the early spring of 1940.

On the basis of that one vivid detail in Eichmann's testimony, we can date his visit to Belzec to late August-mid September 1941. In fact, we can be a bit more precise; in one of the versions of his testimony he stated that the trees had just started to change colour, which would not occur before the beginning of September.

That would indicate that Wirth and his men would have arrived at Belzec at the end of summer 1941 and commenced construction work, since by the time Eichmann arrived for his visit construction work was going on and a number of huts had been built.

The fact that construction work was going on at the time of Eichmann's visit does not mean that the camp was entirely new. We know from Karski's report of 1940 to the Polish Government-in-Exile in Angers that a transit camp existed on the site in about December 1939. That camp had probably been disused for a while, and whatever buildings had existed there may have dismantled (or there may not have been many buildings; Karski describes the Jews held in the camp in 1939 as being in the open air).

It is apparent that at some stage in the summer of 1941, the German authorities had decided to re-open the camp at Belzec, for which purpose new buildings were under construction, work which Wirth was supervising.
We know that work on the Belzec extermination camp began on the 1. November.
How do we know that (apart form a statement on a website)? Is there German documentation to that effect, eg a report to headquarters stating that work began on that date?

Is it based on post-war testimony by Polish witnesses? A particular Pole may have been taken there on that date to do some work lasting for a period, but that does not mean that the whole recommissioning process started on that date.


In fact, the website quoted contains an error when it claims that the Belzec camp was situated five miles away from the main Lublin-Lemberg railway line. In fact the camp was situated immediately adjacent to that line, as the various maps clearly show; the siding that was used for unloading the arriving Jews ran parallel to the mainline.

Passengers in the many trains that passed through Belzec every day were clearly able to see the camp. The diary of Cornides, a German soldier who passed through Belzec by train on leave in August 1942 has a passage describing curious passengers staring out of the carriage windows at the camp perimeter, which Cornides describes as a wire fence interwoven with tree branches. When the train passed the entrance to the camp, the passengers were able to catch a glimpse into it.

"The work camps in Belzec and nearby villages were abandoned in October 1940." http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/labourcamps.html
What is the source for that statement? Is there German documentation to that effect?

It may well be true, which would simply mean that the camp was disused from October 1940 until late summer-early autumn 1941, when recommissioning began.
And were is the proof that Belzec acted as a transit camp? We have plenty of evidence of Jewish transports going to Belzec and returning empty. The evidence from Poles, Germans and Jews agree on this. You are, again, going off on a tangent.
According to the 1940 report by Karski mentioned above, there was a transit camp at Belzec in December 1939. Its purpose was to hold Jews who were trying to cross from the German Zone of Occupation into the Soviet (at least 300,000 Jews from the German Zone made that crossing in the months after the German conquest of Poland).

The physical location of the Belzec camp right next to the Lublin-Lemberg mainline is ideally suited to a function as a transit camp, with persons making the transit between the German and Soviet zones able to get off the trains on which they arrived, wait at the camp, and get back on a train when the time for their departure arrived.

The location of the Belzec camp in close proximity to a main line of communication may be contrasted with tthat of the Sobibor and Treblinka camps. The Sobibor camp is situated in a remote area on a north-south branchline conected to mainlines running east-west, the northern one running from Warsaw to Brest and the southern one from Lublin to Chelm. The branchline was closed off to normal traffic, thus preserving the isolation of Sobibor while allowing trains carrying Jews to arrive there.

Treblinka was not on a through-line at all, but on a spur-line running from Treblinka station to a quarry. Thus it was even more isolated. However, it was within range of the Warsaw-Bialystok mainline, on which Malkinia Junction was situated; it was from Malkinia that the transports of Jews were diverted to the Treblinka extermination camp.

Of course, by the time the first Jews from Lublin arrived at Belzec in March 1942, it had been converted into a homicidal centre. The Jews from Lublin had been selected as unusable for labour, according to the formula recorded in the Goebbels diary entry of 27 March 1942.

But the totality of the evidence, sparse as it is, strongly suggests that the camp at Belzec was selected for recommissioning in the late summer of 1941 because of its former function as a transit camp, and because of its suitability for that function, and that it was to have that purpose again. The total evidence also suggests that at some point the Belzec camp was hastily turned into a homicidal centre through the addition of a jerry-built gas chamber.

Once the German invasion of the Soviet Union began, the German occupation authorities in the Generalgouvernement saw deportation into the conquered Soviet areas as the solution to the problem of the large Jewish population in their area. The Generalgouverneur Frank in particular was constantly lobbying for the deportation to the East to begin as soon as possible.

However, Frank's deportation proposals met with strong resistance from the Reichskommissars Ostland (Lohse) and Ukraine (Koch), who did not want any more Jews dumped on them, particularly not Jews incapable of being used for forced labour.

It may be that the decision to recommission Belzec camp was made in pursuit of Frank's aim of deporting the Polish Jews, and a subsequent decision to add an extermination function was made as a result of the opposition from the Reichskommissare. The grafting on of an extermination component onto the process of deportation meant that only a much smaller number of Jews, those fit for labour, would be sent into Ostland or Ukraine, thus accommodating the complaints of Lohse and Koch.

The fact is that the whole background to the establishment of a homicidal centre at Belzec camp is shrouded in mystery, mainly because any documentation that existed has largely disappeared, and almost none of the main decision-makers survived to be questioned after the war.

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Earldor
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#32

Post by Earldor » 18 May 2004, 19:24

michael mills wrote:However, certain elements in his account represent what we may call snapshot impressions, and are almost certainly true. For example, the image of the police captain working outside in his shirt-sleeves at a camp somewhere in Poland that was under construction is so vivid that it cannot be something that Eichmann made up.
This type of recollections can certainly be regarded in different ways. The details can be very accurate or they can be partly or entirely wrong. Eichmann recalls on this occasion that Heydrich told him to go to see Globocnik in Lublin two or three months after the beginning of Operation Barbarossa, i.e. 22.6.1941 + two to three months = early September or October 1941. I see that Christopher Browning has gone into this in more detail in his "Fateful Months" p.24-25. It is still quite understandable if Eichmann is mixing events after so many years.

Either way, I feel it is quite natural for the Orpo Hauptmann to remove his uniform jacket, if he was doing physical labor even if it were November. People sweat when working hard and it is even advisable to take your jacket off, if you don't want to ruin your uniform and if you want to be comfortable. In any case it would be about a year since the closing of the Otto Line labor camps.
We know that work on the Belzec extermination camp began on the 1. November.
How do we know that (apart form a statement on a website)? Is there German documentation to that effect, eg a report to headquarters stating that work began on that date? Is it based on post-war testimony by Polish witnesses?
It is based on Oberhauser-trial and several Polish witnesses. S. Kozak, who was one of the Belzec Poles, who was earmarked by the municipal authorities to help in the construction of the camp tells us that three Germans arrived in October 1941 in Belzec and demanded for twenty laborers, and that the work began on the first of November 1941. They were dismissed 22.12. 1941.
A particular Pole may have been taken there on that date to do some work lasting for a period, but that does not mean that the whole recommissioning process started on that date.
You need to provide evidence that the camp was recommissioned, all the evidence seems to point the other way. Remember, your preconcieved notions are not evidence. At this stage it is clear that Reder was in the Belzec death camp. If you insist on using your biased view on the matter in the future, you should at least, in all honesty, tell that it has not been proven and that your claim is controversial.
In fact, the website quoted contains an error when it claims that the Belzec camp was situated five miles away from the main Lublin-Lemberg railway line.
Michael, the error in this case is made by you. The abbreviation m refers to meters, not miles.
"The work camps in Belzec and nearby villages were abandoned in October 1940." http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/labourcamps.html
What is the source for that statement? Is there German documentation to that effect?
The sources are listed on the page. In Arad's book similar info comes from "Obozy Hitlerowskie na zemniach Polskich 1939-45".
It may well be true, which would simply mean that the camp was disused from October 1940 until late summer-early autumn 1941, when recommissioning began.
Assertion. Where is the proof?
And were is the proof that Belzec acted as a transit camp? We have plenty of evidence of Jewish transports going to Belzec and returning empty. The evidence from Poles, Germans and Jews agree on this. You are, again, going off on a tangent.
According to the 1940 report by Karski mentioned above, there was a transit camp at Belzec in December 1939.


And how long did the transit camp operate? There is no evidence for a transit camp in Belzec in the 1942-43 period.
The physical location of the Belzec camp right next to the Lublin-Lemberg mainline is ideally suited to a function as a transit camp, with persons making the transit between the German and Soviet zones able to get off the trains on which they arrived, wait at the camp, and get back on a train when the time for their departure arrived.
We have plenty of evidence claiming that Jews were deported to Belzec, but no evidence of people leaving the camp. If you have such evidence, please present it. Nazi speeches or messages using camouflage language won't do.
Of course, by the time the first Jews from Lublin arrived at Belzec in March 1942, it had been converted into a homicidal centre. The Jews from Lublin had been selected as unusable for labour, according to the formula recorded in the Goebbels diary entry of 27 March 1942.
As you know very well, there were some selections made due to labor needs, but the bulk of the Jewish population was deported to the extermination camps; men, women, children, all ages, all trades. Himmler wanted to get rid of the bulk of the Jewish population in GG by the end of 1942. Operation Reinhard was almost able to fulfill his wishes.
But the totality of the evidence, sparse as it is, strongly suggests that the camp at Belzec was selected for recommissioning in the late summer of 1941 because of its former function as a transit camp, and because of its suitability for that function, and that it was to have that purpose again.


It does no such thing. You are once again using the sources very selectively and distorting them to fit your preconcieved view. All you have to go on are two vague statements and your interpretation of them. Your interpretation goes against all the other evidence and should be rejected.


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Earldor
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#33

Post by Earldor » 03 Jun 2004, 16:27

More info on the Belzec labor camps in the Belzec town.

From http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/labourcamps.html :

"A big group of Jewish workers came to Belzec during three days in August 1940. In the beginning they had to lodge in primitive conditions because of lack of space for them. After several days they were sent to 20 different subcamps which were established in Belzec (3) and its surroundings (17)."

This is supported by a Luftwaffe aerial photo of 26th of May 1940 (http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/pic/bmap08.jpg) which shows no construction or camp at the site of the future Belzec death camp.

According to Andrzej Kola's "Belzec; The Nazi Camp for Jews in the Light of Archaeological Sources, Excavations 1997-1999" (p.8, note 7) (sorry for the broken English, it is faithful to the original)

"The so-called Otto-line. While building those border embankment in Belzec area about 2500 people were employed, mainly Polish Jews and Gypsies, kept in the work camp in Belzec, which was situated in the mill, estate buildings and a locomotive shed. All the break of summer and autumn 1940, the prisoners were sent to other places, see E. Dziadosz, J.Marszalek; Wiezienia i obozy w dystrykcie lubelskim w latach 1939-44, Zeszyty Majdanka, 1969, v 3. pp.60-66. [...]"

and

http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/labourcamps.html:

"In Belzec Jewish prisoners lived at three sites: The manor (1000 people), Kessler's Mill (500) and in the locomotive shed (1500)."

In other words, some of the buildings in the village of Belzec, like the locomotive shed, were used by both the Belzec extermination and the labor camp, but the buildings were separate from the extermination camp proper.

http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/labourcamps.html:

"The number of victims can be estimated on 300, only in Belzec village.
The work camps in Belzec and nearby villages were abandoned in October 1940. Before the liquidation of the camps, a part of the Jews had to be released because they were not able to work any more. Some of them died after release. The last transport of released people was sent to Hrubieszow in late October 1940."

All the relevant testimonies of both the German perpetrators and the Polish witnesses seem to agree that the Belzec death camp was a separate entity from the previous labor camp complex in Belzec.

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#34

Post by michael mills » 04 Jun 2004, 03:57

There was certainly a transit camp at Belzec in December 1939, since Jan Karski described it in his first report of 1940.

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#35

Post by Earldor » 04 Jun 2004, 11:21

michael mills wrote:There was certainly a transit camp at Belzec in December 1939, since Jan Karski described it in his first report of 1940.
That's not the point. You have claimed and continually implied that the 1940 camp was/may have been basically the same camp as the later (1942) Belzec extermination camp. Based on this, you have further claimed that Rudolf Reder's account of the Belzec camp probably describes the 1940 camp and the construction of the Otto line, not the extermination camp and its activities.

Since the camp described by Karski was in Belzec in December 1939 it couldn't have been the same camp as the later Belzec death camp. The aerial photo of May 1940 leaves no doubt about that.

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#36

Post by Sergey Romanov » 04 Jun 2004, 11:35

I'd suggest that those arguing about Eichmann's testimony about (supposedly) Belzec read the first essay in Christopher Browning's "Collected memories", where he treats this problem at length. IIRC, he proposes that Eichmann visited experimental gassing installations in vicinity of Belzec (but not Belzec itself).

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#37

Post by Earldor » 07 Jun 2004, 12:41

michael mills wrote:There was certainly a transit camp at Belzec in December 1939, since Jan Karski described it in his first report of 1940.
By the way, could you quote the passage re: Belzec in the Karski 1940 report in context, or at least, give me the source of your claim so that we may get to the bottom of this?

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#38

Post by michael mills » 08 Jun 2004, 14:12

Karski's 1940 report was translated and published by David Engel in a periodical in the 1980s. I think I have a photocopy of the article somewhere, and I will try to dig it out.

As I recall, the report was also one of a number of documents published in the book "Jews in Eastern Poland and the USSR, 1939-46", edited by Norman Davies and Antony Polonsky (published Basingstoke : Macmillan in association with the School of Slavonic and East European Studies, University of London, 1991).

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#39

Post by Alan Heath » 27 Aug 2007, 22:49

No, you are getting camps confused. The initial Belzec camp which was used to house slave labourers working on the 'fortification ditch' is outside the town of Belzec on the road leading to the south west. It was later used to house gypsies. There were three such camps on this defensive line which was nothing other than an excuse to lay claim to Jewish workers in the Lublin region by Globocnik. It had no military value whatsoever and that was known at the time.
The death camp is situated some 1.5km south of the present railway station.
Eye witnesses have confirmed the presence of at least one excavator.

For those interested, I have published on my own website http://www.pbn.com.pl as well as on you tube interviews with witnesses as well as general information on the Bełżec death camp (search alanheath + Belzec).

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#40

Post by michael mills » 29 Aug 2007, 03:55

This is what Karski wrote about a transit camp at Belzec in his 1940 report. The passage is from the translation by David Engel in his article "An Early Account of Polish Jewry under Nazi and Soviet Occupation, Presented to the Polish Government-In-Exile, February 1940", published in Jewish Social Studies 45:1 (1983).
III. The Jewish Camp Near Belzec

Near Belzec (on the boundary of the territories occupied by the Bolsheviks) the Germans have created a camp of Jews. This camp includes for the most part those Jewish families who illegally wanted to cross over to the Bolsheviks or who waited for the reported and anticipated opening of the Bolshevik-German border for population exchanges. Besides this they are almost exclusively indigents. I saw this camp at the beginning of December 1939.

An enormous proportion walked and slept under the open sky. Very many people [were] without proper clothing or other covering. While one group slept, the other waited its turn, so that outer garments could be lent one another. Those who waited jumped and ran around so as not to freeze. A few hundred people, among them children, women, and old people, run around for hours or jump in place, for if they stand still they will freeze. After a few hours [the groups] change places. [Those who have been waiting] go to sleep, and another few hundred people jump and run, jump and run. All are frozen, in despair, unable to think, hungry. [They are] a herd of harassed beasts - not people. This has been going on for weeks.

I watched this for a whole hour, riveted to my spot, frightened, confused. A nightmare - not real. Blue and red freaks - not people. I shall never forget it. Never in my life have I beheld anything more frightening.
Engel provides the following note to the above passage:
14. This is the earliest mention discovered to date of the presence of an internment camp for Jews at Belzec. Later in 1940 a Jewish labor camp was established at the site. Between March 1942, and the fall of 1943, Belzec functioned as a killing center in which some 600,000 Jews were murdered. Karski was to revisit Belzec in late 1942 prior to embarking on his final mission to the West and was to witness the slughter of Jews in progress. See the chapter in his Secret State entitled, "To Die in Agony".
It is clear that the transit camp for Jews that existed at Belzec in December 1939 was a separate facility from the labour camps established in the vicinity of Belzec by Globocnik in 1940.

The relationship between the transit camp and the later killing centre is unclear. Unfortunately, Kozielewski alias Karski does not specify the location of the transit camp that existed in 1939, except to say that it was "near" Belzec.

Since the function of the transit camp was to hold Jews trying to cross the line of demarcation into the Soviet Zone of Occupation (a movement that was encouraged and in some cases compelled by the German authorities), it is likely that it was situated near the main railway line crossing into Soviet territory, possibly close to Belzec railway station. In other words, there is a strong possibility that it was situated in the same location as the later killing centre, which began to operate in March 1942.

I have surmised that a transit camp was established by the German authorities on the Lublin-Lwow mainline just south of the Belzec railway station, in close proximity to the demarcation line between the German and Soviet Zones of Occupation. The purpose of the camp was to facilitate the mass movement of Jews from the German Zone to the Soviet Zone, a process encouraged by the German authorities, and by which they hoped to make their part of Poland "Jew-free".

The transit camp probably operated for a number of months, to at least the end of 1939, and possibly longer, but was eventually mothballed when the movement of Jews into the Soviet Zone came to a halt due to Soviet opposition.

After the commencement of Barbarossa, when the possibility opened up of a mass deportation of Polish Jews into conquered Soviet territory, and the RSHA actually was planning such a deportation, the German authorities may have decided to recommission the transit camp at Belzec as a facility to assist the planned deportation. That would explain the flurry of construction activity at the camp south of Belzec railway station in October-November 1941, testified to after the war by local Polish witnesses.

If the above interpretation is correct, at some point the recommissioned transit camp was converted into a killing centre by the construction of a gas-chamber. It is hard to pinpoint exactly when such a conversion was decided on and was carried out, since the available evidence is very sketchy. It must have been after it became obvious that victory over the Soviet Union would not be achieved by the end of 1941, and the mass deportation of Jews inot conquered Soviet territory would have to be postponed indefinitely.

The sparse evidence relating to the construction of the killing centre in the Belzec camp suggests an incremental process, with initially a jerry-built structure with a limited killing capacity hastily thrown together, possibly for the purpose of eliminating only a proportion of the Jews passing through the transit camp, most likely the old and sick who could not be used for labour and would take up too much space on the journey to the East.

In the summer of 1942, according to post-war testimony, the jerry-built structure was replaced by a more solid structure with a larger killing capacity, probably reflecting the abandonment of the plan to deport the Jews of the Generalgouvernment en masse into conquered Soviet territory and its replacement by a decision to physically exterminate the majority of those Jews, leaving only a small remnant for slave labour.

The above is conjecture, but it does accord with the sparse evidence, including that provided by Kozielewski-Karski of the existence of a transit camp near Belzec in December 1939.

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#41

Post by Alan Heath » 29 Aug 2007, 08:52

Hello Michael! As you may recall from our correspondence in 2001, I have done a lot of researrch on this area and I know it very well. I have also spoken to many people in the village of Belzec and the surrounding area, I have even posted a couple of interviews on my own website http://www.pbn.com.pl Furthermore Michael Tregenza who is the leading authoriity on the Belzec camp is a very good friend of mine and is writing a history of the death camp.

There were three camps in the Belzec area for forced labour. They were to house slave labourers on the construction of the trench along the border which as I pointed out earlier had no military value whatsoever but did allow the local SS to stake a claim to the right to Jewish slave labour.

The camp you refer to is probably the location which is today a warehouse for soft drinks. I have a film somewhere which I will publish on the internet. From this film can be compared photographs taken in 1940 as the structure is the same. I suspect that this building - located at around 5 km from the station is the same although it could have been one of the other two labour camps or even another as the location is not clear.

That there were transit camps to hold people crossing the line at this area is very tenuous. Soviet authorities did not allow people to cross the line and would send them back although there is no doubt that help was afforded by some soldiers in the Red Army. It was local Nazi practice to force Jews to leave and herd them over the border, I have never heard of camps being set up to await for official permission to cross the border.

Construction of the Belzec death camp commenced in November 1941 - I have spoken to two people involved in the construction who confirmed this. Furthermore it is borne out by every other witness. Then we have Eichmann's statements about how the camp location was chosen and that it was winter.

The location of the death camp alongside a main railway line between Lublin and Lwów and with a good connection to Kraków, Rzeszów and Przemyśl is clearly the reason for this death camp, although some of the slave labour camps could have been used.

As you point out the initial gas chamber was 'jerry built' - not much more than a double lined garden shed but no-one who came in, came out. This was a transit camp but only from this world to the next.

The first gassings took place at the beginning of March 1942. It was decommissioned in December 1942 leaving only a Sonderkommando to dispose of the bodies which took another seven or eight months.

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#42

Post by michael mills » 01 Sep 2007, 08:58

That there were transit camps to hold people crossing the line at this area is very tenuous. Soviet authorities did not allow people to cross the line and would send them back although there is no doubt that help was afforded by some soldiers in the Red Army. It was local Nazi practice to force Jews to leave and herd them over the border, I have never heard of camps being set up to await for official permission to cross the border.
The problem is that Kozielewski-Karski explicitly states that precisely such a camp existed "near" Belzec in December 1939.

Now, I firmly believe that Kozielewski-Karski was a shameless liar on occasions, but when he did lie in a big way, it was for a rational purpose, either to serve the cause of Polish nationalism or else to big-note himself.

There seems to be no reason for him to have invented the above camp, although his essential anti-Semitism, quite normal for a nationalistically-minded Poles of his generation, is evident in the tacitly mocking way in which he describes the Jews held in the camp.

It is certainly a historical fact that a very large number of Jews, some 300,000 by the best estimates, fled from the German-occupied Zone into the Soviet Zone between September 1939 and early 1940. At times the Soviet authorities tried to stem the influx, and that would account for the presence of Jews on the demarcation line, for example at Belzec, which was right on the line, waiting for a chance to slip across. It is also quite conceivable that the German authorities would have thrown camps together at the crossing points, in order to prevent the Jews from returning to their homes in the german Zone.

Kozielewski-Karski's report of the existence of a transit camp near Belzec therefore accords with historical reality, and is placed in exactly the right time period. His report may therefore be regarded as true.

The question is whether there is any connection between the camp that existed "near" Balezec in December 1939, and the camp on which construction commenced in November 1941. It may that the latter camp was indeed on the site of the former, and the construction work begun in November 1941 consisted of the adding of new buildings to a camp-site that had been abandoned early in 1940 and allowed to run down.

Conversely, the new might have been sited on a totally different site, on which no camp or installation had previously existed.

What exactly was the purpose of the camp on which work started in November 1941 depends entirely on the date at which the German Government decided to add an extermination component to the existing plan to deport the Jews of German-occupied Europe en masse into conquered Soviet territory, an issue on which there is wide disagreement between historians.

If that decision had already been made by November 1941, then we can conclude that the camp was already planned as a killing centre. If that decision did not come until some time later, then the camp cannot have been designated as a killing centre at the time when construction work commenced there; it must have had some other purpose at the time when the decision was made to build a new camp or recommission an existing one, and the conversion to a killing centre must have occurred at some time between November 1941 and March 1942.

A third possibility is that local authorities in the Lublin District had decided on their own initiative to decimate the unemployable Jews of the district (in much the same way as Reichsstatthalter Greiser had sought permission from Heydrich to apply "Sonderbehandlung" to 100,000 Jews of Reichsgau Wartheland), and had decided to build a killing facility at Belzec. However, unlike the case with Greiser's initiative in Reichsgau Wartheland, which led to the establishment of the killing centre at Chelmno, there is no record of Globocnik's ever having applied to Heydrich for permission to give "Sonderbehandlung" to Jews of the Lublin District.

Unfortunately, the sparse evidence relating to the initiation of the extermination process at Belzec makes it impossible for us to know the answer for certain.

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#43

Post by KarmaTiger » 01 Sep 2007, 10:38

michael mills wrote:
We can accept that when Eichmann visited the camp in a remote part of Poland, which can only have been Belzec, he did see the police captain, who can only have been Wirth, standing outside in his shirt-sleeves. That deatil indicates that the weather was warm enough to be outside wearing only a shirt, which in East Poland cannot be later than early September.
Not necessarily - it depends on the work the police captain was doing. When we used to dig trenches as part of winter warfare exercises, we'd get so hot from the work that we'd strip down to T-shirts even if it were -15 celsius. It's my experience that "Shirt sleeves = early September" is false.

michael mills
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#44

Post by michael mills » 02 Sep 2007, 04:15

Canadians are tough!

But I doubt that Wirth would have been doing heavy physical labour, since he had Poles and Jews to do that sort of thing. His job would have been to supervise the labourers and give them the occasional whipping when they slacked off.

It is most likely that the weather was mild to warm, and he had taken his uniform jacket off to be comfortable, something that he could do in a remote construction site where there was no-one around to enforce uniform regulations.

Both descriptions by survivors of Belzec and other camps, and the evidence of photographs taken by the German staff, indicate that the staff were lackadaisical in regard to their dress, and in hot weather often wore non-regulation items (such as Stangl's white linen jacket, shown in a photograph; Wirth is also described as wearing a white jacket). In the height of summer, both camp staff and Ukrainian guards often ponced around bare-chested wearing only a pair of shorts.

trespasser07
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Re: Excavators at Treblinka

#45

Post by trespasser07 » 30 Nov 2010, 17:44

Hi guys,

Just out of interest does anyone know where Kurt Franz album is now? In a museum, or was it destroyed after his trial?

Many Thanks
"We believe in what we do!" - written in Friedrich Rainer's Guestbook by Odilo Globocnik in April 1943.

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