Other koncentration/extermination-camps in Yugoslavia.

[Locke]

Hello Allen,
I think the source is the website vojska.net - I already posted a link before in this thread.

Here's a link to a list of Camps in Yugoslavia:
http://www.vojska.net/ww2/camps/death/default.asp

Regards,
Polona

[Allen Milcic]

Hello Allen,
I think the source is the website vojska.net - I already posted a link before in this thread.

Here's a link to a list of Camps in Yugoslavia:
http://www.vojska.net/ww2/camps/death/default.asp

Regards,
Polona

Hi Polona:

Thank you for pointing this out.

Kondrican:

Rather than simply copying someone else's work and presenting it as your own in the Forum, provide a link to the site or at very least credit the original creator.

I would like to add that some of the information contained in the material posted by Kondrican, especially regarding the Djakovo and Jastrebarsko Camps, is innaccurate.

Allen/

[Jure]

Here's a link to a list of Camps in Yugoslavia:
http://www.vojska.net/ww2/camps/death/default.asp

I was searching for more informations on Jasterbarsko children's camp and I didn't find any new info, but I found some photos from Jasenovac, which were dreadful, especially the ones with children.
Here's a link to Archive of Republic Srpska
http://www.arhivrs.org/jasenovac.asp

Regards,
Polona

Thanks for those very good links, Locke.

The pictures from the Children's camp were truly horrible...

[Allen Milcic]

I am curious as to how these horrible pictures can be directly linked to Jasenovac, and am especially suspicious due to the unreliability of the website itself (a website of the nationalist Serb entity in BiH). Other than the picture of the youths in Ustasa hats (probably taken at Jastrebarsko Camp or at the Sisak school for Ustasa Youth) there is absolutely no evidence that these photos are related to Jasenovac.

Allen/

[Kondrican]

Hello Allen,

The information i obtained was from:

http://www.vojska.net/ww2/camps/death/default.asp
http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/onl ... print.html

However also various books about Croatia and the NDH state by Ivo Goldstein gave me some information and statistics relating to the concentration camps and forces which occupied Croatia during the time.

cheers.

[Locke]

I am curious as to how these horrible pictures can be directly linked to Jasenovac, and am especially suspicious due to the unreliability of the website itself (a website of the nationalist Serb entity in BiH). Other than the picture of the youths in Ustasa hats (probably taken at Jastrebarsko Camp or at the Sisak school for Ustasa Youth) there is absolutely no evidence that these photos are related to Jasenovac.

Allen/

Hello Allen,
I just posted a link and as it was from national archive of Republika Srpska, I somehow hoped that it's reliable to some extent.

Best regards,
Polona

[Allen Milcic]

Hello Allen,
I just posted a link and as it was from national archive of Republika Srpska, I somehow hoped that it's reliable to some extent.

Best regards,
Polona

Hi Polona:

I know you have provided the link in good faith; I just wanted to point out to the contributors that the photos themselves (except for one) cannot even be directly linked to the NDH in general, Jasenovac in particular, or even Croatia or necessarily WW2 for that matter. The fact that they are provided by the Republika Srpska makes the claims therein even more dubious.

My best regards,
Allen/

[Chetnik]

Information is dubious because it is provided by someone in the Bosnian Serb Republic, but information from Zerjavic, a Croat, is accurate? Why the double standards?

[Allen Milcic]

Information is dubious because it is provided by someone in the Bosnian Serb Republic, but information from Zerjavic, a Croat, is accurate? Why the double standards?

Double standard? There is no double standard, sir. Vladimir Zerjavic is a renowned scholar whose work "Manipulations with WW2 Victims in Yugoslavia" is the most deeply researched and objective piece of literature on the topic. Zerjavic was a participant in the anti-fascist struggle as a member of the Partizans, and he was employed prior to his death in 2001, amongst other organizations, by the United Nations, who accepted his calculations as the most reliable data on war losses in the area. Zerjavic never sought to excuse NDH crimes nor minimize their severity, but used primary source documentation in his research to seek out the truth. His nationality at no point clouded his judgement - he was a true scholar. May I add that I also included research by Ivo Goldstein and Vladimir Dedijer (both of whom even you certainly cannot accuse of a pro-Croatian bias) in my postings to avoid even the perception of bias on my part.

On the other hand - with the track record of human rights abuses, ethnic hatred, aggression and chauvinism that the Republika Srpska has to date, I do not think it is hard to imagine that any information provided by them should be given a definite hard look rather than being accepted at face value. This especially applies to the photos of the emaciated and malnourished children - other than the caption on the website claiming "Jasenovac", what documentary evidence exists to link these photos to the NDH? Who took these photos? Where? When? Who is in the photos? Are these not pertinent questions in the search for historic accuracy?

Have a nice day.

Allen/

[Chetnik]

I'm not going to get dragged into an argument right now about the politics of RS/BiH and how racist and intolerant you think Serbs are.

But I see a huge double standard on your part, here is why:

Zerjavic may or may not have been biased, that is not relevent here. The fact is, you are regarding Zerjavic as an indivudual, not as a Croat, and you claim that since his work has been thoroughly documented, his ethnicity doesn't matter. There would be nothing wrong with that, if it wasn't for the fact that you are dismissing Ivan Bajlo (the guy who maintains vojska.net) simply because he is from Republika Srpska. You do not look at him as an individual like you do Zerjavic, but rather as someone from RS and therefore biased.

If there are no double standards here, then you would either:

1) Assume both Zerjavic and Bajlo are biased, since one is a Croat and the other Serb, and dismiss both of them as reliable sources, or

2) Neither is biased, since they are individuals and shouldn't be assumed to be biased simply because of their ethnicity.

Maybe you should email webmaster@vojska.net and tell him your doubts about the origin of those photos, he might have more information.

[David Thompson]

Chetnik -- Your posts are starting to take on an aggressive and unnecessary personal tone. The issue is the provenance of the photographs; the topic is other concentration or extermination camps in former Yugoslavia. Please stay on topic and avoid personal remarks.

[Roo Boy]

Chetnik, If you believe that a double standard exists in the postings by Allen regarding Zerjavic, then you should also read publications by Professor Bogoljub Kocovic. Professor Kocovic, a Serb, used the same information and data to record losses suffered by all sides during the second world war. The final number of victims recorded by Kocovic is very close to the findings of Zerjavic albeit that Kocovic's numbers are a bit less.
Regards

[Krilnik]

Jure, you asked for other concentration camps in Yugolsavia apart from Jasenovac, however i have information only from concentration camps in the NDH, hopefully it helps:

Brozica - est. Aug 1941, closed Apr. 1945.
Ciglana - est. Aug 1941, closed Apr. 1945.
Danica
Dakovo (around 3,000) - transit site for Croat Jews whom Croat authorities turn over to the Germans for deportation to Auschwitz, est. Sep. 1941- Mar 1942, closed Oct 1942.
Gospic
Jadovno (around 35,000) - est. spring 1941, closed Oct. 1942
Jasenovac I-IV (around 500,000) Aug. 1941, Ustase establish the Jasenovac camps Krapje, Brozica, Ciglana, Kozara and Stara Gradiska, closed May 1945 when Yugoslav partisans overrun Jasenovac.
Stara Gradiska (Jasenovac V) - est. Aug. 1941, winter of 1942-43 was converted into a concentration camp for women, closed Apr. 1945.
Jadovno - est. spring 1941, closed Oct. 1942.
Jastrebarsko (1018) - children's concentration camp
Kerestinac
Koprivnica - est. spring 1941, closed Oct. 1942.
Krapje - est. Aug 1941, closed Nov. 1941.
Kruscica - est. spring 1941, closed Oct. 1942
Lepoglava (around 1,000)
Loborgrad - transit site for Croat Jews whom Croat authorities turn over to the Germans for deportation to Auschwitz, est. Sep. 1941- Mar 1942, closed Oct. 1942.
Pag Island (around 8,500) - est. spring 1941, closed Oct. 1942.
Tenje - transit site for Croat Jews whom Croat authorities turn over to the Germans for deportation to Auschwitz, est. Sep. 1941- Mar 1942, closed Oct. 1942.

I don't know where from did you get this statistics but it's enough only to see number by Jasenovac to realize that this data is in no connection with reality.Those six-digit numbers about serb victims is just poor comunist propaganda which took place especially after ww2 and at begining of Homeland war and is really sad to see that even today someone still believe in those fiction numbers,myth or whatever that is, truth surely isn't.
And in the name of objectivity you could carefree remove one digit (at least) from all those numbers up there cause they are so pumped that they really look tragic/comic.

Today is well known (but unfortunetly not so spread) fact that in Jasenovac were no more than 50-60 000 victims!

P.S. who would said that poglavnik still today has so many die-hard supporters(even moderator is one) and in so many diferent country's

[Marcus Wendel]

Krilnik,

Let me get this clarified, are you accusing one of my moderators of being a "die-hard supporter" of Ante Pavelic?

/Marcus

[Chetnik]

Chetnik -- Your posts are starting to take on an aggressive and unnecessary personal tone. The issue is the provenance of the photographs; the topic is other concentration or extermination camps in former Yugoslavia. Please stay on topic and avoid personal remarks.

Please point out specifically what in my post is even remotely aggressive or personal. Also explain where I have posted anything that is not directly related either to the topic of this thread or something posted by someone in this topic previously.

Chetnik, If you believe that a double standard exists in the postings by Allen regarding Zerjavic, then you should also read publications by Professor Bogoljub Kocovic. Professor Kocovic, a Serb, used the same information and data to record losses suffered by all sides during the second world war. The final number of victims recorded by Kocovic is very close to the findings of Zerjavic albeit that Kocovic's numbers are a bit less.
Regards

You're missing the point. I am not claiming Zerjavic is wrong. (Actually I do see some errors in his calculations, but that is a topic for another time.) I am merely pointing out that it is hypocritical for someone to assume Zerjavic (a Croat) is unbiased, but dismiss documented claims from vojska.net because it is a "nationalist Serb website" (which it actually is not). Either neither is a credible source, or they both are.