Herbert Cukurs

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Grisu
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#16

Post by Grisu » 14 Jul 2008, 19:31

Does anyone have (or has anyone read) the book by Anton Künzle and Gad Shimron:

Hîssûl hat-talyān mē-Rîgā (Jerusalem 1997).

Translations:
Der Tod des Henkers von Riga (Gerlingen 1999).
The execution of the Hangman of Riga: The only execution of a Nazi war criminal by the Mossad (London et al. 2004).

Grellber
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#17

Post by Grellber » 26 Mar 2009, 18:55

I have just read The Complete Black Book og Russian Jewry by Ehrenburh/Grossman, 2009 edition. A rather odd experience and I guess a mix of true and exegerated statements (feel free to forrect me here). Regarding Arajs and Cukurs the book, Part 5 Latvia, 3 the dirst days of the occupation (by captain E Gehtman), page 384: "The Gebeitskommissar of the Elgave (Mitava) district was baron Emden, a baltic German. He was nicknamed the king of Zemgale because he used to own property in the Mitava area. In the district under his command Emden behaved like a tyrant; he had an insatiable thirst for power. There is evedence that he organised several hunts and roundups of jews. The list of his accomplices for one of these hunts is also known: Captain Cukurs, Major Arajs, the prefect of Riga Stiglitz, Untersturmfuhrer Jäger, and some Baltic Germans -The Bruns brothers and Gruppenfuhrer Kopitz".

Well, I have never ever encountered this statement before. Anyone who knows the origin?


imanc
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#18

Post by imanc » 08 Apr 2009, 20:16

Thanks to Grellber for directing me here. Though it seems I can add little to what has already been said with far better quotes and sources then I have. Still, I wrote this post in another thread, and it seems it might be useful here too.

My intention is not to say he was innocent of anything, but, his case is appearently more complex then Arājs.
As far as I have read, and I'm not really specialist in his case, but there seems to be only few "hard-known facts" about him during the war (some of them have already been posted here, but I have them just to stress that I agree to them).
1) He definitely was connected to Arajs's group, seems that at the minimum, he was their mechanic.
2) The only account that I have seen on his involvment in mass killings is dubious - him killing infants and drinking their blood and singing, dancing during this in public, shouting "give me their blood" (??), I have seen just one source for this and I doubt it, especially the "drinking blood" part. However, modern russian (and former soviet) sources consider this to be enough to dispell any doubts. Seems that especially Soviet historiography felt very certain that Cukurs is guilty. I'm not so sure.
3) Seems that UK and Brazil considered him to be not responsible for war crimes, or at least it is mentioned in his letters that they have issued such documents (and even done rather serious researches, as other posters here imply) for his usage. Should be possible to trace such documents. Also in his letters it seems that he is openly and without trace of shame searching support letters from some embassy's and institutions because jewish organisations are saying bad things about him and in his own words, doing what they can to prosecute him and harm his business (if organising demonstrations and vandalism in his company is true, then it's not overrating).
4) I haven't seen that any court or war tribunal - Israel's, Soviet Union's, Allied or any other would have had his case and judged him as responsible for war crimes. Even though modern Russian institutions seems to imply that "beyond doubt" he was blood drinker and everything. Maybe there has been such court, then it's authority might be enough to consider him war criminal or not (though modern research would be much better). Though it seems to be true that he was killed by Mossad (or some non-governmental organisation).
5) In his letters he writes that during the war he was hidding one jewish girl in his house and that jewish organisations forbid his family to meet this girl after the war. It should be possible to find if any other source can confirm this, though I have seen it only in his letters. Grellber mentioned that this is also in "A book by Frank Gordon which i bought in Rigas occupation museum also contains a story about a woman, which Cukurs "spared/saved", or was it the Jewish org in Rigas web-site?" If it is in jewish org then it would be even more interesting. (might be a small window of opportunity for conspiracy theory that maybe it was not Mossad actually who's responsible for his death, but some soviet agent! :P )
6) While living in Brazil he did not try to hide his identity.
7) His letters seemed to indicate that he was slightly antisemitic (by modern standarts). However, it looked very much like tipical attitude towards the jews that existed in interwar period in Latvia - it was NOT aggresive, more like "let's better go shopping in Latvian shops", slogan used sometimes (for example dictator Ulmanis I think used it once), with nobody trying to implement it. So slight, folkish/rural-minded antisemitism - yes, probably. Nazi like antisemitism - didn't notice a trace of it. Jews in interwar period (or any other time for that matter) were never enemy of society, the small aggresive nazi-like antisemitic group Pērkoņkrusts was banned.

So, my personal opinion is that his case is tricky and not clear at all. Maybe his letters (one of main, but not the only source I've read about him) are hoax by some modern supporters of him, though their language, words, way to say things seems very much valid. Jewish organisations just after the war might be furious enough to consider even non-conclusive evidence on individual person from Arājs's group to be enough for excecution - maybe, not sure.

Probably his case could be solved by few dedicated researches, because appearently, there are some serious white spots that should be solvable. Until then, I think calling him personally a mass murderer - because he was part or closely connect with Arajs's group - is hardly grounded in known facts.

As for the photo on the book him looking like brootaly screaming.. well, I'm not sure what to make of it. It looks aggresive, especially in the used context. On the other hand, maybe he's yawning? Or maybe he is actually trying to look aggresive. Maybe it's fake. Also, I have seen no mentioning of him being related to Pērkoņkrusts in interwar period. Though again, I haven't specifically researched this.

Some sources, mostly latvian -
http://www.freewebs.com/brazilija/brazilija.htm
wikipedias (latvian, english, russian, jidish) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herberts_Cukurs (some citings of Ezergailis)
http://herbertcukurs.blogspot.com/

Grellber
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#19

Post by Grellber » 17 Oct 2009, 13:33

Above there is a question if anybody has read the Hangman-book. The answer is soon. It´s on my table now, purchased from Amazon uk who now have it in stock.

I must admit that I´ve been hesitating paying for it as I personally (as for now) have seen no evidence that the personal actions of mr. Cukurs should motivate him being hammered to death by initiatives sanctioned by a government.

Well... anyhow.. In the end I could not resist. I need to read it.

Also, I heard somewhere that Latvian TV had inteviewed the alleged witness Shapiro... Could anybody who saw this provide some info?

Grellber
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#20

Post by Grellber » 02 Jan 2010, 15:28

If i had to believe either the Mossad version or this one:
http://www.gabyweber.com/dwnld/artikel/ ... urs_en.pdf

I would choose the latter.
The hangman book did not have much aura of credibility.

paolosilv
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#21

Post by paolosilv » 23 Mar 2010, 08:56

Cukurs:

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/s/c ... ct=5851475
Wiesenthal Center is positive he was guilty of war crimes. They have nine testimonies from Holocaust survivors. In addition, the bio of the killer of Cukurs expressed no doubt that he was the man, and states that he was the son of Holocaust victims.

Grellber
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#22

Post by Grellber » 23 Mar 2010, 21:15

Where can one find the full nine testimonies?
I´ve heard from several different sources (among them a friend saw it on Latvian TV) that one of them, the Shapiro one, has been seriously questioned. A Swede living in Latvia and who made an exhibition called "Pressumed innocent" also claims he has personally interviewed the said Shapiro and that Shapiro denied ever to have given that testimony.

That said, the other eight might very well might be perfectly credible. Do you have access to them?

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Annelie
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#23

Post by Annelie » 07 Dec 2010, 17:04

Where can one find the full nine testimonies?
I´ve heard from several different sources (among them a friend saw it on Latvian TV) that one of them, the Shapiro one, has been seriously questioned. A Swede living in Latvia and who made an exhibition called "Pressumed innocent" also claims he has personally interviewed the said Shapiro and that Shapiro denied ever to have given that testimony.

That said, the other eight might very well might be perfectly credible. Do you have access to them?

I also would like to read these testimonies.

paolosilv
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#24

Post by paolosilv » 12 Dec 2010, 11:34

I only have that link to the Simon Wiesenthal Site , sorry.

best, Paolo

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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#25

Post by Michael Miller » 07 Sep 2011, 18:05

An anti-Semitic rant by Reinuvader was just removed by this moderator.

~ Mike Miller


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Skyderick
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#27

Post by Skyderick » 20 Jun 2014, 12:32

In July 1960 Yad Vashem published an announcement in the press calling upon Latvian holocaust survivors who could testify about Cukurs' actions in the war to call in urgently.
Cukur's earliest mention in Hebrew press is from December 1944, in an article about the destruction of Riga's Jewish community. "The rulers of the ghetto Jews, as of the whole of Latvian Jewry, were the bastards Altmeyer, a German from Prussia, and Schultz - a Baltic German. Within the ghetto raged the sadist Cukurs and his assistants."
Between 1944 and 1965 he appeared in several more articles.
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YVS.jpg
28/07/1960, Heruth newspaper pg. 4
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Riga.jpg
19/12/1944, Ha-Tzofe newspaper pg. 2
Riga.jpg (37.63 KiB) Viewed 1744 times

Inquirer
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Continuing the debate on Herberts Cukurs...

#28

Post by Inquirer » 22 Jun 2014, 16:01

Frequently, I think to myself whether said Cukurs, a prominent member of the Arajs Kommando killing squad in Latvia during World War Two, was involved the the killing of Jews to the extent that eye witness testimonies indicate. I am painfully aware of how contentious an issue this is.

The late Yaakov Meidad, the spy who orchestrated Cukurs' murder, was notified by fellow agents that 'Cukurs was responsible for the extermination of 30,000 Latvian Jews'. However, does this bold claim have any basis in reality ?

Any comments and links to specific pertinent sources would be thoroughly appreciated.

Regards

Inquirer

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Skyderick
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Re: Continuing the debate on Herberts Cukurs...

#29

Post by Skyderick » 23 Jun 2014, 12:36

In many cases of war crime, eye witness accounts are the strongest evidence available. Do you have any reason to refute them in the case of Cukurs? There has been a discussion about one account here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56115
Do you question the number of Jews killed in Latvia (around 80,000), or Cukurs' direct responsibility for all of 30,000 deaths? The latter is of course not very likely, and I doubt anyone intended for it to be taken literally. Rather, he was assumed the responsibility because of his prominence in mass killings. Before the Hangman of Riga he was called the Arch murderer and The Sadist.

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Skyderick
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#30

Post by Skyderick » 23 Jun 2014, 12:48

Testimony of Eliezer Karstadt (Karstedt) at the Eichmann trial, 05/05/1961. Karstadt was born 17/12/1913 in Talsi and lived in Riga before the war. His parents, his siblings and their families were all killed in the holocaust. Moved to Israel in 1948 and died 17/10/1987. He offered a very detailed account of his experience in the war (I offer my free translation from Hebrew, since the translation available online has been altered too much in my opinion):

A: The ghetto actually existed only about a month. From October 23rd till the end of November 1941.
Q: What happened that month?
A: At the end of that month, the big action took place. On October 30th about a third of the people in the ghetto were lead out and shot. Meanwhile, there was established a small ghetto for what they called “craftsmen”. Then there was a week long pause, and there were rumors that no more actions would ensue. On the 7th December, it was a Sunday, the action that would end on December 9th at 12 o'clock was resumed. Still, the small ghetto, which was supposed to serve as a protection, failed its purpose, for on Tuesday the labor office demanded voluntary craftsmen, and those who volunteered perished in the action.
This action was not carried out solely by the Germans. They shared the honor with Latvians as well. For example, I know that in Argentina Cukurs lives to this very day. I saw him on that very Tuesday, 9th of December, killing women and children. Today he claims, like so many of that time, that he was never in the ghetto and never killed Jews or murdered Jews. To the contrary.
Q: What was the name of the Latvian organization that collaborated with the Germans?
A: The name was “The Thunder Cross”, in Larvian “perkonkrusts”.
We in Riga didn't believe that people were being taken behind the city and shot, until two women came, returned, survived, and told us about it. On Monday these women were taken with a group to that place.
It got dark, and this is how the business was done: There was a German with a machine gun, they dug out pits, piled their personal belongings, and those who were lucky were hit by a bullet and killed. Those who weren't lucky were thrown in the pits and suffocated. She was on the top layer, wasn't hit by a bullet and so, once darkness fell, crawled out of the pit, put on cloths and returned to the ghetto. The name of the woman was Hamburger.

Source [Hebrew] http://www.snunit.k12.il/shoa/krstm.html
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Source: Yad Vashem
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