Herbert Cukurs

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Re: Continuing the debate on Herberts Cukurs...

#31

Post by Inquirer » 23 Jun 2014, 13:30

Skyderick

I doubt Cukurs direct responsibility. Of course, I do not deny that 80,000 Jews were exterminated and that the Arajs Kommando was implicated in some of the vilest atrocities of World War Two. It was a written piece by historian Andrew Ezergalis ( I am sorry if I spelt it wrong) titled 'Cukurs: Certainly Guilty' that got my mind thinking whether Cukurs was involved in the atrocities to the degree alleged. The historian claims that Cukurs notoriety is somewhat undeserved and he was, therefore, unjustly executed. Similar to you, I agree that Cukurs' "prominence" was a significant contributing factor to his ignominy. By virtue of his pre-war fame as a enterprising aviator, he was conveniently assigned principal blame for the atrocities perpetrated on the Latvian Jewish community.

Such an unfounded generalisation, however, should not be used as a basis for judging Cukurs' wartime career and activities. Furthermore, such a claim, if grossly inaccurate, should not be broadcast on television, as it was during the documentary "Nazi Hunters: Herberts Cukurs" as it is deceiving.

Furthermore, I am also intrigued to know what Cukurs' principal motivation was in enrolling in that execution squad. Long have I mused over the possible different reasons why he may have made that fatal move. Was he a fervent nationalist ? Was he coerced? Was he anti-Semitic? Or, more simply, was he attracted by the prospect of generous rations, including that of vodka?

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Re: Continuing the debate on Herberts Cukurs...

#32

Post by Skyderick » 23 Jun 2014, 16:17

I don't think anyone can testify to Cukurs' motivation. His family still believes he was completely innocent. He brought a Latvian Jewish girl with him to Brazil, whom he allegedly saved. She later revealed that she knew about his part in the mass killings, but that he had only shown kindness to her.
Frankly, I don't think a person capable of killing children has any moral boundaries to begin with, and the attempts in Latvia to whitewash his hands are quite revolting. One side of my family in Latvia was very patriotic and donated regularly to the national defense fund and other causes before the Soviet invasion. This was no secret, as lists of donors were published in the newspapers. They were still killed all the same, down to the last baby, by the Latvian collaborators. The press only became explicitly anti-Semitic after the German invasion in July 1941, so one can't use years of propaganda and brainwashing as an excuse in this case.
Viktors Arajs was a rapist. Is it so hard to believe that Cukurs was a maniac too?


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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#33

Post by Skyderick » 23 Jun 2014, 20:41

From the book Hunting evil: how the Nazi war criminals escaped and the hunt to bring them to justice by Guy Walters:
"Isaak Kram, a Jewish engineering student, recalled how he had got close to the former pilot. An old Jewish woman screamed because her daughter was not allowed to climb with her on to the truck. Cukurs pulled out his gun and shot the old woman. I was an eyewitness to the shooting. I also saw with my own eyes how Cukurs aimed his gun at a baby who was crying because he could not find his mother. Cukurs killed that baby with a gunshot. Kram was not the only witness to Cukurs committing infanticide. Another was the twenty-year-old David Fiszkin: 'Many Jews could not keep pace, Cukurs who was always at the rear shot these people without explanation or reason. When a child cried, he took him from his mother and shot him on the spot. I have seen personally how he shot ten children'."

Kram, Isaac Leo (Itchak Ariye)- born in Riga 04.04.1921 and died 17.03.2013 in New York.
Fiskin, David- born 01.02.1921 in Riga and died 03.11.1971 in Israel. He was saved by Johanna & Janis Lipke.

From article by Dr. Efraim Zuroff, director of the Simon Wiesenthal Center office:
(http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nln ... 6h-trHm63g)
"Probably the most damning evidence was submitted by Max Tukacier, who testified on September 23, 1948 in Munich before the Legal Department of the Central Committee for Liberated Jews in Germany. Tukacier was among the Jews arrested by “Cukurs’ men” (Arajs Kommando) and taken to their headquarters at Valdamaras St. 19. There he was personally beaten by Cukurs who broke nearly all his front teeth and he witnessed how numerous Jews were tortured and subsequently shot on his orders. On July 15, 1941, he personally saw Cukurs order on elderly bearded Jew to rape a twenty year old Jewess in front of a crowd of Latvian police and prisoners and when he was incapable of doing so, forced the man to kiss the naked girl all over her body again and again. Those prisoners who could not bear to watch this ugly sight were beaten by Cukurs with the butt of his pistol, some 10-15 of them to death, including several women. Tukacier also testified to Cukurs’ active role in the large-scale actions of November 30 and December 8, noting that he beat and shot men, women, and children who could not keep pace on the march [to Rumbula]."

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Re: Continuing the debate on Herberts Cukurs...

#34

Post by David Thompson » 24 Jun 2014, 03:27

I'm not seeing the point of having this separate thread when we already have one open at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56115. If there are no well-reasoned objections, I'll merge these threads in a day or so.

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Re: Continuing the debate on Herberts Cukurs...

#35

Post by Inquirer » 24 Jun 2014, 12:43

Skyderick

"Is it so hard to believe that Cukurs was a maniac too?"

Again, I am not attempting to downplay Cukurs' degeneracy, but curious about the extent of his involvement in the atrocities. I wish to ascertain whether he was one of the main shooters, had a leading role in orchestrating atrocities, or if his primary duty was maintaining the unit's vehicles and had a marginal role in the killing of Jews. It is certainly plausible that he personally killed at least some Jews.

I have heard conflicting stories about his wartime activities and thus want to be closer to having this case cleared up.

" I don't think that a person capable of killing children has any moral boundaries to begin with". Possibly, given that Cukurs was noted for his "terrorist" proclivities during the 1920s in Latvia, though it it important to acknowledge that warfare can- and does- have a brutalising effect on individuals, creating an environment in which the murder of innocents is less morally problematic. I must emphasise, again, that it is not my intention to exculpate Cukurs, I merely want to refine my knowledge and certainty about his involvement in Nazi atrocities.

David Thompson

Yes, I think that would be a good idea. The reason why I decided to initiate a new thread was because the one that you mentioned, which I have perused quite a few times before and consider especially insightful, is becoming quite old and so would attract less attention from commentators. Therefore, I would have been less successful in perpetuating the the discussion regarding Cukurs.

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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#36

Post by Skyderick » 24 Jun 2014, 20:44

These are the witnesses that apparently testified to war crimes by Cukurs, according to a quick internet survey:
  • Solomon Gerstein
  • Rafael Schub
  • Max (Morduch Genoch) Kaufmann
  • Frida Michelson
  • Sara Gutmann
    I'm not sure how she could have left a testimony against Cukurs, since she was murdered so early. Her younger sister Ella Medalje née Gutmann 03-10-1913-? apparently survived and testified in 1975. Perhaps someone got them mixed up.
  • Eliezer Karstadt 17.12.1913-17.10.1987
  • Max Tukazier
  • Abram Schapiro aka Sasha Semenoff
  • David Fiskin
  • Isaak Leo (Itchak Ariye) Kram
Kram and Fiskin testified against Cukurs in 1961 in New York, and pleaded the Israeli and German governments to intervene and have him brought to justice. http://www.jpress.nli.org.il/Olive/APA/ ... 4&rtl=true
The quote I published earlier omits the final line from Fiskin's account of Cukurs:
"... I personally saw him shoot ten children and babies. I saw also, on that very day, 30th November 1941, how Cukurs killed, while leading transports from the ghetto, some 500 Jews with gunshots. This was before he brought them from the ghetto to the forest where many were then killed"
http://www.jpress.nli.org.il/Olive/APA/ ... 3&rtl=true
This article, dated 08.03.1965, also brings the testimony of a witness who appears to be Sasha Semenoff:
"Already on the 2nd of July 1941, the day after the Germans entered Riga, gangs of Latvian volunteers broke into Jewish apartments and ordered them [the tenants] to leave. Their leader was Herbert Cukurs, whom my father knew well. We begged him to leave father at the apartment, but he didn't even answer. The next day he moved into our apartment, but refused to tell us what had become of father. Later we found out that he was executed in the prison", tells one witness who was 16 when this event took place and was therefore not included in the list of men who were evacuated from their homes and killed. Herbert Cukurs also found other manners of torture. He knew that this boy played the piano well "and one day he ordered me at night, in the month of July 1941, that I come to his room and play for him and his friends. There I met the heads of the secret Latvian police. They were drunk and I played for many hours. Thus I witnessed how they brought in a Jewish girl and each of them, one after the other, had their way with her. I know that this maiden was held many more weeks in Cukur's apartment".



Does anyone know whether Jeckeln ever make a statement about Cukurs?
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Re: Continuing the debate on Herberts Cukurs...

#37

Post by Skyderick » 24 Jun 2014, 22:49

David Thompson wrote:I'm not seeing the point of having this separate thread when we already have one open at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56115
Neither do I, but since it has nothing to add to the older thread I suggest locking it.

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Re: Continuing the debate on Herberts Cukurs...

#38

Post by Inquirer » 25 Jun 2014, 00:16

Skyderick

Why do you suggest locking it? As I merely stated, I am only interested in gaining a more deeper insight into Cukurs' wartime activities. And I am only trying to encourage a discussion regarding his motivation(s) for joining forces with the Nazis. I will say this again: I am not trying to exonerate Cukurs.

Furthermore, I just think it would be especially interesting to reinvestigate the rather curious case concerning Cukurs' wartime career.

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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#39

Post by Skyderick » 25 Jun 2014, 00:40

imanc wrote: In his letters he writes that during the war he was hidding one jewish girl in his house and that jewish organisations forbid his family to meet this girl after the war. It should be possible to find if any other source can confirm this, though I have seen it only in his letters. Grellber mentioned that this is also in "A book by Frank Gordon which i bought in Rigas occupation museum also contains a story about a woman, which Cukurs "spared/saved", or was it the Jewish org in Rigas web-site?" If it is in jewish org then it would be even more interesting.
The Cukurs family did indeed come to Brazil with a Jewish orphan they claimed they had saved. A detailed description was given in an article from 1950 titled The Metamorphosis of Latvian Jewry’s Mass Murderer:
"In 1946 a Latvian family came to Brazil, bringing with it a Jewish orphan whom, according to their own account, they had saved from the Germans. When the ship docked at Rio the word spread throughout the city that a Christian family had arrived with a Jewish girl they had saved from the Nazis. The Jewish community rushed to the ship and carried the family to town with great honor. Everyone wished to hold a feast for the kindhearted knight who risked his very life to save one soul of Israel, and reward him as he is due.
The association of Lithuanian and Latvian Jews threw a magnificent party for the savior, and the young girl gave a speech on how he had risked his life. The celebrated man spoke of his part in saving Jews and how devotedly he had taken care of the girl as if she was his own. The crowd was very moved by his words, cried and looked upon the guest as if he was an angel of heaven. They bestowed the family with a house, and the lawyer who handled their paperwork refused to receive any payment.
A couple of years ago, Rabbi Nurock of the World Jewish Association came to Brazil. When he was told about the case of the girl and her savior he showed much interest, since the Rabbi had served as a spiritual teacher in Riga. But the moment he heard the name of the savior was Herberts Cukurs he turned pale and called: “Jews, you have been tricked! Cukurs is a criminal and a Nazi hangman, who uprooted Latvian Jewry and is wanted by the investigation committee for Nazi crimes in the Baltic states”. Rabbi Nurock promised to send the Jews of Brazil any information available on this affair. The moment Cukurs heard he had been discovered he asked to meet with the Rabbi and talk him over, but the Rabbi refused to see him. The Jewish community in Rio took it upon itself to investigate and collect all the needed information.
Meanwhile the murderer disappeared from the Jewish scene. The Jewish girl left his side and makes a living on her own, but she refuses to say a word about her savior.
The information collected on Cukurs from different sources revealed that he was no less than a Latvian national hero and an excellent pilot of German origin. The moment the Germans entered Latvia he offered them his services and was appointed the head of the Riga ghetto and other ghettos. He exceeded in his cruelty, and terrorised the whole of Latvia’s Jewry. And he was the one who finally massacred the Jewish communities in this land. He drowned 1,200 Jews in Kuldiga, personally shot 500 Jews and a further 200 Jews who were killed with great cruelty by his order at Valdemars street in Riga. He ordered the destruction of the Jewish cemetery in Riga and the burning alive of Jews in the synagogue at Gogola street. At his order 300 Jews were massacred in Bausk, and he guided and directed the destruction of 30 thousand Latvian Jews between the 29th of November and 7th December 1941. His name was among 23 war criminals wanted by the investigation committee for Nazi crimes in the Baltic states.
From witness testimony it turned out that Cukurs did indeed save the girl he brought with him as an alibi to Brazil, but murdered her parents together with all the other Jews. He let the girl live with him at the home of the Jewish banker Schmulian were he held carousals and wild celebrations. In the backyard the bodies of dead Jews piled, while Cukurs indulged in ...[illegible] with his Nazi friends in Schmulian’s halls.
When these testimonies were read out for the girl she fainted a few times, but she refuses to speak of all those crimes. She claims that she knew Cukurs was a Nazi officer and that he liquidated the ghetto, but he had treated her well and saved her from death.
Cukurs is walking free in Rio and leads a peaceful life with no bother. The first six months he lived at one of the luxurious palaces, and then …[illegible] to avoid attracting attention. He established a factory …[illegible] on the beach and put millions into it.
The Jewish federation has sent the authorities all the information it holds on Cukurs, and the political …[illegible] has also been informed. A Jewish delegate at the National Congress has also called for the deportation of Cukurs from Brazil since he cannot be tried for his crimes in this country, and there is hope that his demand will be met.
Meanwhile the Jewish communists have taken advantage of this affair in their favor. They organized a …[illegible] trial of Cukurs that turned into a regular communist propaganda assembly. Then they demonstrated against his …[illegible] factory and caused some damage to property, until the police arrived and disbanded the demonstrators. This demonstration was like oil to wheels of the anti-Semites and had a bad influence on …[illegible]. Cukurs cried out that the communists wished to murder him because he was known as their political rival and asked for the help of the authorities. The authorities, who aren’t very keen of the communists …[illegible] a question mark on the whole collaboration against Cukurs."
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Re: Continuing the debate on Herberts Cukurs...

#40

Post by Skyderick » 25 Jun 2014, 01:41

Inquirer wrote:It is certainly plausible that he personally killed at least some Jews.

"I do not deny that I killed some Jews", admitted Herbert Cukurs, who was a member of the Latvian SS during the second World War, and who stands guilty of murdering 32,000 Jews during the liquidation of the Riga ghetto.
The Brazilian Ministry of Justice refused his request for Brazilian citizenship.
In an interview with a journalist of the Viennese newspaper ''Ö Journal'' Cukurs said, in reply to a question: "Of course I killed some Jews during the expulsion of the communist invaders".

Maariv Newspaper, 1960
http://www.jpress.nli.org.il/Olive/APA/ ... 1&rtl=true
Inquirer wrote:Why do you suggest locking it?
Inquirer,

I wasn't trying to discourage you. You agreed the threads should be merged, but since your new thread had so far not contained any information that could enrich this one I though it better to lock it. At any rate, the moderator was in favor of merging.

Kind regards
Rick
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#41

Post by Skyderick » 25 Jun 2014, 04:01

The minister of Justice, mr. Pinchas Rozen, is looking into a special request handed to him by Knesset member Rabbi Dr. Nurock, that the Israeli government should demand from the Brazilian government the extradition of Latvian war criminal Herbert Cukurs, one of the destroyers of Latvian Jewry who resides in Brazil, our author was informed yesterday by a credible source.
In reply to our question, Rabbi Nurock confirmed this and told us more about the sequence of events. Cukurs settled in Brazil after the war and applied for citizenship. The Jewish federation in Brazil turned to Rabbi Nurock and requested that he collects information on the crimes of Cukurs.
At the Jewish congress that took place last year in Stockholm, Rabbi Nurock met with heads of the Latvian Democrats, members of the former parliament, who confirmed that Cukurs collaborated with the Nazis and partook in the murder of Jews. Rabbi Nurock sent the testimonies he collected from these personalities to the Jewish federation in Brazil. On account of this material, the authorities refused Cukur's application for citizenship.
Rabbi Nurock notes that back in the day Cukurs was a famous sportsman, and the Jews of Latvia funded his travels to contests in Africa. Rabbi Nurock's request of the minister of Justice was delivered on the eve of the Knesset recess.

Heruth newspaper, 01/09/1960
http://www.jpress.nli.org.il/Olive/APA/ ... 4&rtl=true

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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#42

Post by Skyderick » 25 Jun 2014, 08:09

The name of the Jewish girl Cukurs saved was Miriam Keitzner (Perhaps identical to a Mira Kaitzner, born 01/04/1920 in Berzpils and lived in Riga before the war, unless that's her name in marriage) http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/21120505/
She is often used in support of Cukurs' innocence, but as told in the article above she admitted knowing of his part in the killing of Jews. She also refused to speak in his defense later on, as far as I can tell.
The linked article offers yet another witness, who claims to have changed his/her name and refuses to speak out for fear of retaliation.

Cukurs had two sons and a daughter. He apparently adopted another child in Brazil, according to the Israeli press, to avoid extradition. http://www.jpress.nli.org.il/Olive/APA/ ... 4&rtl=true (Keitzner is also named in this article)
Yet another witness account is brought in this article, this one by Sonja Bieder. "In early December Cukurs enter the camp of Jewish women who were chosen to work as seamstresses and whose lives were thus supposed to be spared. Cukurs carried a whip with lead pieces at its end. With no reason and indiscriminately he lashed left and right until the flesh of those he hit was completely torn. He sent 200 of the women to their death, although the Germans had chosen them as a labor force"

Here's an interesting article. I'm afraid I can't offer a translation, as my Latvian is hardly sufficient. But from what I understand, Cukurs lashed his son (???) publicly with a whip in March 1941. I'd appreciate if someone could translate. The title reads " Pilot Herbert Cukurs returning to ''fame'' ".
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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#43

Post by Grellber » 13 Feb 2017, 11:58

This weekend, Nazi Hunters: Herberts Cukurs was shown on Swedish television.
It made me re-read "The execution of the Hangman of Riga (2004), pretty much a clone to the TV program. But also Andrew Ezergailis "The Holocaust in Latvia" (1996).

Some 10 years ago I worked in Riga and became interested in the Cukurs story. At the time, I failed to find any of the testimonies referred to above, with one exception -The Shapiro one.

I seems like many more testimonies have been made available since, a bit surprising I must say. I would have expected it all being public after Cukurs was killed back in the 60:s. Neither does Ezergailis refer to them. (At least the names are not referred to in the index of his book, I might have missed something)

I note that Zuroff refer to Shapiro and Tukacier and Shub as well as "additional witnesses" in his statement "Herbert Cukurs: Certainly Guilty".
What continues to be dubious is the reference to Shapiro which, as far as I understand, was a fake witness statement (here I refer to the Shapiro statement ONLY). Correct me if I am wrong.

So I continue to fail when it comes to getting a Clear picture of Cukurs doings (That he was part of the murder squad/Commando is not questioned)

Also, for your info, on page 196, Ezergailis writes "One of the more sensational comments that Arajs made during the trial was that Capt. Herbert Cukurs, the fyer, had come to him for protection, for people had began to say that since Cukurs had been driving a Cadillac during the Sovjet occupation, he was a communist". There is also a reference to another author claiming Cukurs became a Bolshevik in 1919 -Might explain why he joined the commando.

Anything else?................

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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#44

Post by thefisch » 14 Jul 2017, 04:50

Skyderick wrote:The name of the Jewish girl Cukurs saved was Miriam Keitzner (Perhaps identical to a Mira Kaitzner, born 01/04/1920 in Berzpils and lived in Riga before the war, unless that's her name in marriage) http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/21120505/
She is often used in support of Cukurs' innocence, but as told in the article above she admitted knowing of his part in the killing of Jews. She also refused to speak in his defense later on, as far as I can tell.
The linked article offers yet another witness, who claims to have changed his/her name and refuses to speak out for fear of retaliation.

Cukurs had two sons and a daughter. He apparently adopted another child in Brazil, according to the Israeli press, to avoid extradition. http://www.jpress.nli.org.il/Olive/APA/ ... 4&rtl=true (Keitzner is also named in this article)
Yet another witness account is brought in this article, this one by Sonja Bieder. "In early December Cukurs enter the camp of Jewish women who were chosen to work as seamstresses and whose lives were thus supposed to be spared. Cukurs carried a whip with lead pieces at its end. With no reason and indiscriminately he lashed left and right until the flesh of those he hit was completely torn. He sent 200 of the women to their death, although the Germans had chosen them as a labor force"

Here's an interesting article. I'm afraid I can't offer a translation, as my Latvian is hardly sufficient. But from what I understand, Cukurs lashed his son (???) publicly with a whip in March 1941. I'd appreciate if someone could translate. The title reads " Pilot Herbert Cukurs returning to ''fame'' ".
Hi Skyderick - may I ask where you obtained this information regarding Miriam Keitzner?

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Re: Herbert Cukurs

#45

Post by Skyderick » 21 Feb 2018, 09:20

thefisch wrote:Hi Skyderick - may I ask where you obtained this information regarding Miriam Keitzner?
Sorry for the late reply. I haven't been on here in a long time. The source for her name was one of the Israeli newspaper articles I linked but haven't translated. She arrived at Brazil with the Cukurs family on December 1945. If memory serves me right she later married a Jewish physician.
Grellber wrote:It seems like many more testimonies have been made available since
Indeed, quite a few Latvian testimonies against Cukurs were published around 2014, which was why I stopped researching this subject.

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