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WWII expulsions spectre lives on

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed.
Hosted by David Thompson.

Postby szopen on 06 Aug 2004 08:35

michael mills wrote:In summary, the number of ethnic Germans expelled by the Polish Government from 1945 onward was many times greater than the number of ethnic Poles driven from their homes by the German occupiers between 1939 and 1945, and many times greater than the number of innocent Poles who lost their lives at German hands.


According to data i;'ve already haev posted here:
"Bernadetta Nitschke. Vertreibung und Aussiedlung der deutschen Bevölkerung aus Polen 1945 bis 1949.Translated from Polish by Stephan Niedermeier, Jahrbuch des Bundesinstituts für Kultur und Geschichteder Deutschen im östlichen Europa 20. Munich: R. Oldenbourg Verlag, 2003. 392 pp. Bibliography. EUR24.00 (paper), ISBN 3-486-56832-9.Reviewed by Eagle Glassheim, Princeton University"

"Of around 12.4 million Germanswithin the lands of post-war Poland in 1944, sixmillion fled or were evacuated, 3.6 million wereexpelled, one million were verified as Poles,300,000 remained in Poland as a German minority,and up to 1.1 million died (p. 280). "

So, the Polish government expelled 3,6 millions Germans. 1.1 milliond died in a process of whole evacuation and escape and it's unclear how many of those were killed as results of actions by Polish Government.

As you know Poland lost 6 millions citizens (an estimation; estimations vary between 5 to 7,5 million but 6 million is most accepted), of which most were innocent civilians.

As you probably know, Germans in 1939-1945 expelled 1-9-2,5 million Poles (dependending on whether you count expelled after Warsaw Uprising too):


1) During Zamojszczyzna action 100.000

2) From Posen area 630.000 (70.000 from Posen alone) - 750.000 Germans were settled in their place.

3) From Pomerania about 120-170 000 Poles (the number probably would be higher, since in Gdynia alone before war there were 114.000 Poles, and almost all were expelled)

Including Silesia, and Lodz (Lodsch) area plus earlier mentioned Posen and Pomerania about 900-1,2 million Poles were expelled.

In addtion:

4) From territories acquired bymilitaryetc

5) From Warsaw and Krakow (during creating exclusive German districts and during creation of ghetto) and from neighboiuring areas.

6) From Warsaw after Warsaw uprising 650.000 people were forced to leave

Germans were of course planning to expell all Poles as part of Generalplan Ost.

So, your claim is false, unless you are counting also people who fled or were evacuated before Polish government could do anything about them as expelled by Poles, and even then it just couldn't be many times more (Poland lost 6 millions citizens, all German who were living in Poland was 12 million, so the higher ratio is two times).

NUmber of poeple expelled by Polish government: about 4 million. (the others WERE NOT expelled by Polish government - and the number is in fact claimed by some to be lower, about 2 millions)
NUmber of Poles expelled by German government: about 2 million.
NUmber of Poles murdered by German government: about 6 million.

Note, that Germans were planning to expell all Poles from Posen, Pomerania etc even before WWII (for example in June 1915 there was petition signed by manu German professors, lawyers etc to kaiser demanding expelling the Poles).
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Postby JariL on 06 Aug 2004 10:23

<NUmber of Poles murdered by German government: about 6 million.

Hi Szopen,

How reliable is the above figure? In my understanding it has been estimated that Germans killed about 6 million people in Poland. But not all of them were Poles.

Regards,

Jari
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Postby szopen on 06 Aug 2004 11:36

2-3 million non-Jewish Poles (most of them Catholic, most reliable is higher number), 2-3 million Jewish Poles (most reliable is higher number), and "others". All WERE Poles since all were Polish citizens. You don't differentiate German losses basing on Volkslist group, aren't you? Wonder how do you count people who were forced to sign VOlkslist and immedietely recruited to Wehrmacht or whole groups which were counted as German despite their will.

You may want to start to argue how many of 3 million Poles who were killed as Jews were Poles, Jewish Poles, or Jews. Since the level of assimilation was quite different in different strata of Jewish society (definetely Jews in Warsaw were more assimilated - Ringelbaum mentions that in ghetto almost evryone was using Polish) than in shtetles in the east. But it's impossible to find out exactly. What about those Poles of Jewish ancestry who were killed as part of actions against the intelligentsia? Such arguments will lead as nowhere.

The same could be told about German losses. How mamy of German citizens were ethinc Germans, and how many Poles forced to sign VOlkslist, autochtones, Jews etc?
German Government killed with premeditation 6 million of Polish citizens.
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Postby JariL on 06 Aug 2004 12:28

Hi Szopen,

Thanks for the reply!

I was asking about the number of Poles meaning Polish citizens. I did not even think about division between different groups of Poles. The question was if there were 6 million Polish citizens killed or 6 million people alltogether killed. Given the high number of people deported to Poland during WWII the number 6 million has been quoted as a) number of Polish zitizens killed and b) number of people killed alltogether in Poland regardless of their nationality and c) as the number of Jews killed in KZ. Then we could of course go on asking how many were actually killed and how many just died for what ever reason, but that is not essential in the context.

Regards,

Jari
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Postby szopen on 06 Aug 2004 13:44

Actually, i owe an explanation. I have no idea how many of those often quoted 6 millions were actually killed by Soviet Union. The proportion should be quite high - Soviets expelled above the million Polish citizen from pre-1939 territories, and the mortality rates were quite high, so the number of victims had to go in hundreds of thousands.

Also, recently there is tendency to correct the number from 6 millions to 5. The exact number of course won't be known; I've once made my estimation based purely on number of ethinc Poles (out of my head, 22-24 million ethnic Poles) in pre-War and post-War Poland (19-22 million ethnic Poles) and came to conclusion, that no number could be consider as the truth given by God.
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Postby Obserwator on 06 Aug 2004 15:58

your posts seem to be all opinion and no proof.

I posted numerous evidence of German crimes and atrocites.
But I can see a huge effort to dismiss Polish suffering and paint Germans in good colours. Perhaps some people are fascinated by Reich too much.

Example :

http://ww2.boom.ru/Germany/fweiss.html

In the operation zones of the Army Groups North and South immediate preparations and execution of terrorist acts, as well as intelligence widely supported by the nationalists among the German minority in Poland, were organized by selected offices of the III Division in Breslau, Stettin, Koslin, Allenstein and many frontier towns. The main object of the subversive activities had to become Upper Silesia - Poland's most industrialized area. The armed bands operating there got the task to seize vital industrial and strategic objects, to prevent them from demolition by retreating Polish troops, and to hold them until the arrival of German regular troops. The whole action had to be launched yet before the outbreak of the hostilities either from the German territory by paramilitary organizations like Freikorps Ebbinghaus or by terrorist groups recruited among the Germans living in Silesia, like Kampf und Sabotageorganisation or Selbstschutz. They got a military drill in Wehrmacht's training camps and since the end of July they had been moved closer to the Polish frontiers. Somewhat later, on 15 and 16 August, the orders were issued to start smuggling firearms and ammunition to Poland for underground terrorist groups.

Similar operations, although to a lesser extend, were conducted in Pomerania by the Abwehr office in Stettin. It worked closely with the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht - OKW) and regular armies, and among various tasks it assigned to the terrorist bands the biggest emphasis was put in the co-operation with the regular troops, seizure of the bridges in Tczew and Grudziadz, spreading panic in the rear of the Polish Army, disorganization of its retreat, signalizing bombing targets etc. Apart from typically military diversion, also a number of provocative and subversive actions were planned, especially on the Baltic coast and in Bydgoszcz. The OKW closely co-operated here with SS and other Reich's security services.




This is the moment when you should provide some factal evidence for your many unsupported claims.

Claims of Polish suffering at the hands of Germans are unsupported by facts ?
:roll:

On the hand the claims of Germans being terrorized by Poles are widely known to be true:

Sick Polish women terrorizing brave German soldiers :
http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities2.htm
When the soldiers noticed in the procession a very sick woman, staggering and helped along by the others (it was the one who had been carried out by a member of the staff), they ordered her to be laid down near the wall of 19, Wawelska Street, where one of them shot her, and then set fire to the body.


Wounded and medical staff terrorizing brave German soldiers :
the St. Lazarus Hospital was taken. Owing to very intense artillery fire and air raids, the staff and the wounded retired to the shelter. The Germans threw grenades and mines and poured petrol into it and set it on fire. About 600 people were burnt. The whole hospital building was also burnt down after they had first removed all the Germans, who had been given the same care by the Poles as the Polish insurgents themselves.


A child in perambulator causing suffering to German troops :

Among those who had been previously driven from the school was a woman with a child in a perambulator. She was killed with the others in Maria Kazimiera Street. A few moments afterwards I saw a soldier come over to the perambulator and shoot the child.



Szopen already provided facts about Polish being explelled by Germans. Of course these are only numbers-the view that Poles were animals caused Germans to be brutal and vicious in their methods of ethinc cleansing.
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Postby David Thompson on 06 Aug 2004 17:03

Obserwator -- When I said to you:
This is the moment when you should provide some factal evidence for your many unsupported claims.

You replied:
Claims of Polish suffering at the hands of Germans are unsupported by facts ?

I listed eight statements from you that weren't supported by facts, and that wasn't one of them. I asked for facts or sources to back up the claims you made -- they were highlighted in bold italic typeface so they'd be easy to see -- but got nothing of the sort. Instead, you just asked a rhetorical question about a point I didn't make and then provided a series of new atrocity stories. In other words, you tried to avoid providing any proof by changing the subject.

Sometimes atrocity stories can serve to prove a point -- people can be vicious, and no group is free of criminals. This section of the forum is not open, however, to claims that an entire race or nationality is vicious. This is exactly what you have been doing. We don't allow it here. Wrapping yourself in a Polish flag does not legitimize your bigoted approach any more than it would if you used an Israeli, Russian, Czech, Serbian or German flag. Without reference to which national, religious or ethnic groups are involved, the practice of collective insults is forbidden here.

If you have something to say here, document it. If all you have to say is that one or another race, nationality, ethnic group or religion is criminal, don't bother to post it.

Your noncomplying posts will be deleted without further warning.
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Postby Obserwator on 06 Aug 2004 18:07

I asked for facts or sources to back up the claims you made -- they were highlighted in bold italic typeface so they'd be easy to see

And I provided answers for them-evidence of cooperation by German minority representatives and brutal treatement of Poles by Germans.

If all you have to say is that one or another race, nationality, ethnic group or religion is criminal, don't bother to post it.

Then why are posts against Polish people tolerated ?

I listed eight statements from you that weren't supported by facts, and that wasn't one of them. I asked for facts or sources to back up the claims you made.

All my statements are backed up by facts.And I backed up my arguments for example :

In the operation zones of the Army Groups North and South immediate preparations and execution of terrorist acts, as well as intelligence widely supported by the nationalists among the German minority in Poland, were organized by selected offices of the III Division in Breslau, Stettin, Koslin, Allenstein and many frontier towns. The main object of the subversive activities had to become Upper Silesia - Poland's most industrialized area. The armed bands operating there got the task to seize vital industrial and strategic objects, to prevent them from demolition by retreating Polish troops, and to hold them until the arrival of German regular troops. The whole action had to be launched yet before the outbreak of the hostilities either from the German territory by paramilitary organizations like Freikorps Ebbinghaus or by terrorist groups recruited among the Germans living in Silesia, like Kampf und Sabotageorganisation or Selbstschutz. They got a military drill in Wehrmacht's training camps and since the end of July they had been moved closer to the Polish frontiers. Somewhat later, on 15 and 16 August, the orders were issued to start smuggling firearms and ammunition to Poland for underground terrorist groups.

Similar operations, although to a lesser extend, were conducted in Pomerania by the Abwehr office in Stettin. It worked closely with the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht - OKW) and regular armies, and among various tasks it assigned to the terrorist bands the biggest emphasis was put in the co-operation with the regular troops, seizure of the bridges in Tczew and Grudziadz, spreading panic in the rear of the Polish Army, disorganization of its retreat, signalizing bombing targets etc. Apart from typically military diversion, also a number of provocative and subversive actions were planned, especially on the Baltic coast and in Bydgoszcz. The OKW closely co-operated here with SS and other Reich's security services.



This section of the forum is not open, however, to claims that an entire race or nationality is vicious. This is exactly what you have been doing

Untrue-I never did. I stated that I respect German people who fought the Reich, helped its victims and deserted their armies. I never claimed that Germans as a nation are viscious.

Your noncomplying posts will be deleted without further warning.

German atrocites against the Poles were one of the reasons behind the relocations.It importent to show them in order for people to understand why the decision to relocate Germans was made. It is interesting that when I posted evidence to polish suffering i was threatend with deletion.
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Postby Marcus Wendel on 06 Aug 2004 18:13

Obserwator wrote:
If all you have to say is that one or another race, nationality, ethnic group or religion is criminal, don't bother to post it.

Then why are posts against Polish people tolerated ?


They are not, people have been banned for that very violation for example.

Some of your remarks about Germans are clear violations of the guidelines and will not be tolerated any further.

Obserwator wrote:It is interesting that when I posted evidence to polish suffering i was threatend with deletion.


You were "threatend with deletion" for not following the guidelines, it had nothing to to with Poland, the same thing has happened to many who post unsupported claims about allied crimes too.
Try to realize that this forum is neither anti-Polish nor pro-Polish, this is an apolitical research forum.

/Marcus
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Postby Obserwator on 06 Aug 2004 18:40

None of these statements of yours have anything you've provided to back them up.

So lets start.
David Thompson alledges following things to be untrue


due to their patricipation in genocide of Poles and Jews


Easy :
In the operation zones of the Army Groups North and South immediate preparations and execution of terrorist acts, as well as intelligence widely supported by the nationalists among the German minority in Poland, were organized by selected offices of the III Division in Breslau, Stettin, Koslin, Allenstein and many frontier towns. The main object of the subversive activities had to become Upper Silesia - Poland's most industrialized area. The armed bands operating there got the task to seize vital industrial and strategic objects, to prevent them from demolition by retreating Polish troops, and to hold them until the arrival of German regular troops. The whole action had to be launched yet before the outbreak of the hostilities either from the German territory by paramilitary organizations like Freikorps Ebbinghaus or by terrorist groups recruited among the Germans living in Silesia, like Kampf und Sabotageorganisation or Selbstschutz. They got a military drill in Wehrmacht's training camps and since the end of July they had been moved closer to the Polish frontiers. Somewhat later, on 15 and 16 August, the orders were issued to start smuggling firearms and ammunition to Poland for underground terrorist groups.

Similar operations, although to a lesser extend, were conducted in Pomerania by the Abwehr office in Stettin. It worked closely with the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht - OKW) and regular armies, and among various tasks it assigned to the terrorist bands the biggest emphasis was put in the co-operation with the regular troops, seizure of the bridges in Tczew and Grudziadz, spreading panic in the rear of the Polish Army, disorganization of its retreat, signalizing bombing targets etc. Apart from typically military diversion, also a number of provocative and subversive actions were planned, especially on the Baltic coast and in Bydgoszcz. The OKW closely co-operated here with SS and other Reich's security services.

Part of this intelligence operation was to provide lists of Poles targeted for murder :
http://www.free-definition.com/Operatio ... nberg.html
Operation Tannenberg was codename for one of extermination actions directed at Polish intelligentsia during World War II. Nazis prepared lists, so called Sonderfahndungsbuch Polen, which listed more than 60.000 of Polish activists, intelligentsia, actors, former officers etc. First, in August 1939 about 2.000 Polish activist of Polish minority in Germany were arrested and murdered. Second part of the action started in September the 1st, 1939 and ended in October resulting in at least 20 thousand murdered in 760 masss executions by special units, so called
Einsatzgruppen, in addition to regular Wehrmacht units and SS.


methods and circumstances under both occured


This is what Germans did :
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?la ... d=10005473
The Nazis conducted indiscriminate retaliatory measures against populations in areas where resistance was encountered. These policies included mass expulsions. In November 1942, the Germans expelled over 100,000 people from the Zamosc region; many were deported to the Auschwitz and Majdanek camps. Approximately 50,000 Polish children were taken from their families, transferred to the Reich, and subjected to "Germanization" policies.

On contrast Germans weren't sent to concentration camps into gass chambers-or do you expect me to post evidence for that ?


what led to those decisions.


I already posted evidence of German minority involvment in the Reich's war and numerous atrocites commited by Germans in Poland.
planned extermination of a whole nation, razing cites, murdering pregnant women, executing children in concentration camps

David Thomson ? You want me to give you proof that Holocaust existed ? :roll:
All right :
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?la ... d=10005473

The German occupation of Poland was exceptionally brutal. The Nazis considered Poles to be racially inferior. Following the military defeat of Poland by Germany in September 1939, the Germans launched a campaign of terror. German police units shot thousands of Polish civilians and required all Polish males to perform forced labor. The Nazis sought to destroy Polish culture by eliminating the Polish political, religious, and intellectual leadership. This was done in part because of German contempt for Polish culture and in part to prevent resistance against the occupation.

In May 1940, the German occupation authorities launched AB-Aktion, a plan to eliminate the Polish intelligentsia and leadership class. The aim was to kill Polish leaders with great speed, thus instilling fear in the general population and discouraging resistance. The Germans shot thousands of teachers, priests, and other intellectuals in mass killings in and around Warsaw, especially in the city's Pawiak prison. The Nazis sent thousands more to the newly built Auschwitz concentration camp, to Stutthof, and to other concentration camps in Germany where non-Jewish Poles constituted the majority of inmates until March 1942.


http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?la ... d=10005197

Tens of thousands of people, perhaps as many as 100,000, were deported to the Stutthof camp. The prisoners were mainly non-Jewish Poles. There were also Polish Jews from Warsaw and Bialystok, and Jews from forced-labor camps in the occupied Baltic states, which the Germans evacuated in 1944 as Soviet forces approached.


Conditions in the camp were brutal. Many prisoners died in typhus epidemics that swept the camp in the winter of 1942 and again in 1944. Those whom the SS guards judged too weak or sick to work were gassed in the camp's small gas chamber. Gassing with Zyklon B gas began in June 1944. Camp doctors also killed sick or injured prisoners in the infirmary with lethal injections.


"All Poles will disappear from the world.... It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles." Heinrich Himmler


"The destruction of Poland is our primary task. The aim is not the arrival at a certain line but the annihilation of living forces
" Adolf Hitler
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/498/thompson.html
So in my view the statement that Poles were targeted for :
planned extermination of a whole nation, razing cites, murdering pregnant women, executing children in concentration camps

is true, I also posted the evidence of executions of children and pregnant women in the topic before.

Why don't they ever attack Russian authorites like they attack Poles ?

If you can show me a quote from BdV demanding that Russian govt. should give them land and give apologize I would be gratefull.As of now I know no such statements.
German crimes can't be compered with isolated cases of violence.

I am in no knowledge as to govt. of Poland giving orders to murder German civilians.On the hand German govt. did-Operation Tannenberg being an example, as Hitlers statements.

Potsdam conference as a legal basis for those actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Conference
The establishment of the Oder-Neisse line as the provisional border between Germany and Poland.
The expulsion of the German populations remaining outside the borders of Germany.
Agreement on war reparations. The Allies estimated their losses and damages at 200 billion dollars and Germany was obliged to pay it off in German property, current industry products, and work force. The Cold War prevented the full pay off however.
On Stalin's proposal, Poland was to be excluded from division of German compensation to be later granted 15% of compensation given to Soviet Union (this has never happened).


Mr.X killed 100 children by an axe, during the attempt of his capture Mr.Y damaged his car

German State murdered 12 milion people in concentration camps alone.This was a planned genocide.On the other hand a certain number of Germans was relocated by Allied orders.
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Postby Beppo Schmidt on 06 Aug 2004 19:40

David Thomson ? You want me to give you proof that Holocaust existed ?


He never said anything that could be remotely construed as saying the Holocaust did not happen, so where do you get off saying something like that and trying to make him look like some kind of Holocaust denier? You haven't been here long enough to know anything about Mr. Thompson, and when you put things in his mouth like that, you just make yourself look like even more of a bigoted self-righteuous moron than you've already been doing.
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Postby Marcus Wendel on 06 Aug 2004 19:43

Obserwator wrote:David Thompson alledges following things to be untrue


No, he does not. He pointed out that you have not presented any facts to support them, he makes no claim on wether or not they are true.

Let me also add that your attitude is not helping you in this forum.

/Marcus
Last edited by Marcus Wendel on 06 Aug 2004 19:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Obserwator on 06 Aug 2004 19:43

You haven't been here long enough to know anything about Mr. Thompson, and when you put things in his mouth like that, you just make yourself look like even more of a bigoted self-righteuous moron than you've already been doing.

You consider anyone who doesn't honor Reich soldiers a moron ? :roll:
I never use personal insults.
I ask you to do the same.
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Postby Beppo Schmidt on 06 Aug 2004 19:45

You consider anyone who doesn't honor Reich soldiers a moron ?


No, I consider someone who puts words in other posters' mouths to make them look bad a moron. And I think you knew what I meant perfectly well before you posted that.
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Postby Marcus Wendel on 06 Aug 2004 19:45

Beppo Schmidt wrote:you just make yourself look like even more of a bigoted self-righteuous moron than you've already been doing.


As you very well know insults are not tolerated here.

/Marcus
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