WWII expulsions spectre lives on

[Marcus]

Let me just repeat what I wrote in the first post in this thread:
Any attempts to turn this into some sort of mud slinging, either of individuals or nationalities will not be tolerated, consider this an advance warning.

If this childish nonsense continues, we will of course be forced to act against the members involved.

/Marcus

[Beppo Schmidt]

Any attempts to turn this into some sort of mud slinging, either of individuals or nationalities will not be tolerated

Marcus, that is exactly what this has been for about the past four pages, not to mention the other two threads where the exact same argument has been going on simultaneously.

If this childish nonsense continues, we will of course be forced to act against the members involved.

Well this is probably a good time for me to leave this thread.

Auf Wiedersehen, Herr Obserwator.

[henryk]

The transfer of German land to Polish rule and the expulsion of Germans living there can not be judged in isolation. It must be considered in the overall context which include annexation of Eastern Poland by the Soviet Union, and the expulsions of Poles from that territory.
Germany lost the war. so there are consequences. Eastern German suffered more than the Western. Unfair, but that's life.
Poland lost the war. It lost 6 million citizens, loss of one third of its territory, including two of its largest cities, Wilno and Lwow, and continued loss of independance, becoming a satellite of the USSR. Unfair.
To appease his future slaves, and to make room for Poles expelled from Eastern Poland, Stalin got Roosevelt and Churchill to agree to transfer of Eastern Germany to Poland. Such transfer is not practical without the expulsion of Germans.

Furthermore, not all the German colonists in the Polish territories annexed by Germany were volunteers filled with a desire to kick out Poles. In fact, most of them were ethnic Germans who had been relocated from the Baltic States, the eastern Polish provinces annexed by the Soviet Union, Bukovina and Bessarabia); they wanted to be resettled in Germany itself, but instead were directed to former Polish territory where they bore the brunt of Polish hostility.

In many ways those German "colonists" were victims rather than perpetrators. They were placed in a situation that they did not create themselves.

True, but surely no one believes they should have been allowed to stay in Poland.

Finally, although the expulsion of the ethnic German population from pre-1939 Poland (some hundreds of thousands) may have had some justification as a measure to remove the cause of several decades of border conflict, there was certainly no justification for the expulsion of many millions of Germans from the German territories east of the Oder-Neisse annexed by Poland. That German population had been settled there for many centuries, and was the overwhelming majority in those provinces.

The population of Stettin and Breslau had not done anything against the people of Poland. They were not colonists, but people settled for centirues on land that was indisputably German by any criterion.

The expulsion is unfair, but necessary to make room for Poles expelled from Eastern Poland. It also removes future dissidents.

In summary, the number of ethnic Germans expelled by the Polish Government from 1945 onward was many times greater than the number of ethnic Poles driven from their homes by the German occupiers between 1939 and 1945, and many times greater than the number of innocent Poles who lost their lives at German hands.

The number expelled is much less than the total number of Poles killed, including at the hands of the Soviets and Ukrainians, and the number of Poles expelled from Eastern Poland.
Criticism should be directed not at the principle of expulsion nor the number expelled, but rather at the way the expulsion was carried out.

[David Thompson]

Readers interested in the ethnic cleansing measures applied by the Germans to countries they conquered can find more information on these threads:

The RuSHA Case - the Indictment
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56401
The RuSHA Case -- the prosecution's argument
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56404
The RuSHA Case - The Judgment of the Tribunal
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=56438

[michael mills]

David,

I have read with interest the material on the trial of officials of the RuSHA posted by you.

One item of particular interest to me was the extracts from a treatise prepared by the Racial-Poltical Office of the NSDAP some time in November 1939. That treatise included the following passage:

All measures serving birth control are to be admitted or to be encouraged. Abortion must not be punishable in the remaining territory. Abortives and contraceptives may be publicly offered for sale in every form without any police measures being taken. Homosexuality is to be declared as not punishable. Institutes and persons who make a business of performing abortions should not be prosecuted by the police.

Would you not agree that the ideas expressed above would today be wholeheartedly endorsed by the most liberal, progressive and humanist elements in the population of every Western country, and would prima facie qualify the Racial-Political Office of the NSDAP as a very humane organisation?

[David Thompson]

Thanks, Michael. I'm glad you found the RuSHA material of interest.

You quoted a portion of the program of the NSDAP Racial-Political Office, which read:

All measures serving birth control are to be admitted or to be encouraged. Abortion must not be punishable in the remaining territory. Abortives and contraceptives may be publicly offered for sale in every form without any police measures being taken. Homosexuality is to be declared as not punishable. Institutes and persons who make a business of performing abortions should not be prosecuted by the police.

You then asked:

Would you not agree that the ideas expressed above would today be wholeheartedly endorsed by the most liberal, progressive and humanist elements in the population of every Western country, and would prima facie qualify the Racial-Political Office of the NSDAP as a very humane organisation?

There are really two questions here, each of which I will answer in turn:
(1)

Would you not agree that the ideas expressed above would today be wholeheartedly endorsed by the most liberal, progressive and humanist elements in the population of every Western country . . . ?

Separated from its larger context as part of the Nazi racial supremacy programs proved at the trial, the program described in the quoted passage looks quite modern.
(2)

[Would you not agree that the ideas expressed above] . . . would prima facie qualify the Racial-Political Office of the NSDAP as a very humane organisation?

I don’t think so, because the Racial-Political Office of the NSDAP was part of an overall picture which wasn't really humane, liberal, or progressive.

[michael mills]

I was being a bit tongue in cheek.

But I am sure that you will have noticed that it is quite common practice for contributors to this forum to quote a passage from a German document divorced from its context, in order to prove a point that may or may not be valid.

[David Thompson]

Michael -- You said:

I was being a bit tongue in cheek.

I noticed.

You also said:

But I am sure that you will have noticed that it is quite common practice for contributors to this forum to quote a passage from a German document divorced from its context, in order to prove a point that may or may not be valid.

I've noticed. I think that it is the result of an intermediate stage of learning, where people have a "big picture," but haven't mastered the detail sufficiently to document their points as well as they'd wish. My thought is, there's enough evidence out there, so why "gild the lily?"

[Landser]

... the eastern Polish provinces annexed by the Soviet Union, Bukovina and Bessarabia);

Those teritories belonged to Romania and their occupation was one of reasons for which Romania went along Germany to fight the Soviets. Nowadays Bukovina is part of Ukraina and Bessarabia is independent: Moldavia. As for the Germans living there, I don't know of any significant number being present around the anexation period. Most Germans in Romania were concentrated in Western and Central part.

Pardon me,I have to interject a few correction of what you stated.
I gathered you trace your family line to Siebenbürgen, and you're right it was always a showcase of efficiency for all of SE Europe.
I do originate from Bessarabia,and did leave with all of our ethnic community in 1940 after it has been occupied by SU.We left there VOLONTARILY and followed the call and offer from Ger.Now saying that Bessarabia belonged to Roumania is only a legal term,because it was given to them also as a "thank you gift" by the Versailles Treaty.The province was exploited from day one. Since no Roumanians of any amount existed there,the government was constantly in a stage of war with the local population for various reasons.With other words this was also one of the endless blunders of the Vers.Treaty.But I can say this was a orderly evacuation and all the legal and property problems were settled with Ger and USSR.Later we became "colonists" in Poland and in my case luckily our family got out of Pol in Jan 45 just ahead of the uncoming front.
We have NO claims of any kind made to anybody and I personally don't know of any "colonist's" is even thinking about it.

Now in my opinion Bessarabia should have never belonged to Roumania.
And now it is not a independent state it has been divided up. South became part of Ukraine and the North became part of Moldavia a independent state. I have visited there in the 90ties and it was heartbreaking to see how people just exist now.

I think Michael Mills described the situation best.
As far as I Know the Potsdam decree
DID NOT call for the expulsion.

[Marcus]

A post from xcalibur discussing the personality of the poster rather than the facts was removed.

/Marcus

[Brotherhood of the Cross]

Pardon me,I have to interject a few correction of what you stated.
I gathered you trace your family line to Siebenbürgen, and you're right it was always a showcase of efficiency for all of SE Europe.
I do originate from Bessarabia,and did leave with all of our ethnic community in 1940 after it has been occupied by SU.We left there VOLONTARILY and followed the call and offer from Ger.Now saying that Bessarabia belonged to Roumania is only a legal term,because it was given to them also as a "thank you gift" by the Versailles Treaty.The province was exploited from day one. Since no Roumanians of any amount existed there, the government was constantly in a stage of war with the local population for various reasons.With other words this was also one of the endless blunders of the Vers.Treaty.But I can say this was a orderly evacuation and all the legal and property problems were settled with Ger and USSR.Later we became "colonists" in Poland and in my case luckily our family got out of Pol in Jan 45 just ahead of the uncoming front.
We have NO claims of any kind made to anybody and I personally don't know of any "colonist's" is even thinking about it.

Now in my opinion Bessarabia should have never belonged to Roumania.
And now it is not a independent state it has been divided up. South became part of Ukraine and the North became part of Moldavia a independent state. I have visited there in the 90ties and it was heartbreaking to see how people just exist now.

I think Michael Mills described the situation best.
As far as I Know the Potsdam decree
DID NOT call for the expulsion.

I am of Greek/Romanian descent. My wife is of German/Austrian descent (forefathers rewarded with land in Siebenburgen/Banat area by the Austro-Hungarian court). Sometime I make jokes saying that her ancestors opressed mine and she replies that they rather civilised them .
I was not aware that there was a German population in Bessarabia/Bukovina (was it significant btw?), furthermore I was not aware of any issues re: relocation of that population but if you can more give information in that matter I would appreciate it.

Bessarabians are Romanians by descent, tradition, religion, customs and language. Even after 60 years of savage russification they still can speak fluently the language of their ancestors which is Romanian. Romanians and Russians/Ukraineans/Soviets fought over that province on and off for several hundreds years.

Nowadays they call their language Moldavian and the Nationalist-Comunist trend imposed by the present Government tries to create a fake national identity not driven by some healthy nationalist feelings but by hypocrisy and a separationist-Russian-sponsored policy. The main difference between the language they speak and the one it is spoken in Romania are the largely used archaisms in the "Moldavian" language whcih is understandable since speaking Romanian in Bessarabia during the Soviets was harshly punished and it finds itself in the same place as 60y ago.
To the separationist feeling also contributes the widespread corruption in Romania, the poor international Romanian image and the fact that the Romanian leaders are neo-communist trained by the Soviets (starting with president Iliescu). But there is a blood link between the people of Bessarabia and Romania which cannot be denied.

[WalterS]

Michael Mills wrote

But I am sure that you will have noticed that it is quite common practice for contributors to this forum to quote a passage from a German document divorced from its context, in order to prove a point that may or may not be valid.

We sure have noticed, Mr Mills. We sure have.

[Landser]

To Brother

Since this is OT,I'll be brief with my response.

The area in question can be traced to the Greeks,Romans,Turks and then Imperial Russia.Romania only held briefly during the 2 world wars jurisdiction over it .The Moldavians did have the biggest majority of a other wise indigious
and transplanted population of a great many ethnic and religious backgrounds.The Germans were mostly in agricultur and mainly in the southern part. They were one of the lesser minorities,of which the first ones settled around 1817 followig requests by Russian monarchs.Their influence contributed to similar dominance as the Siebenbürgen Sachsens did in their area.In 1940 about 94000, the vast majority who left were counted which emigrated.

Here is a good historical description of the events.



http://www.bookrags.com/books/rsdmw/PART17.htm


PS In Moldavia supposed to be a popular drive to merge with Romania? But Romania does not like the idea too much.