Michael,
I think you messed it up with your intention to demonstrate a prejudicial attitude on my part to always see Jews in any bunch of people massacred by the Nazis.
You were and are wrong at that and I'll show it to you with a few examples.
1) In my first answer to Scott's post I made it clear from the start for all average clever readers that what I was worrying and talking about was mainly the issue of GAS VANS as instruments of death and NOT the presence or not of Jews in the Krasnodar-Kharkov areas. What I did, was copying the Nizkor document (
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/reinhard/rei ... aq-07.html) as it dealt with the GAS VANS question.
I showed that intention of mine by writing what follows:
Ok, though this has not to do directly with your subject contribution, it clarifies that death could be administered through the use of diesel engines.
For less than average clever readers that meant: "I know that what is being hinted there, such as the General Government, Resettlement policies, Treblinka and the like has nothing to do directly with the contents of your post as to dates, geographic areas, etc. but I used it because it has to do with the GAS VANS functional capability to be used as, let me see, instruments, machinery, automotive equipment, selfpropelled truck-shaped vehicles, equipped with the necessary piping and fittings to discharge venomous gas of variously defined types and concentrations into their more or less rectangular shaped van housing so that the human guests being tightly closed therein could get their lungs filled up with the above mentioned poisonous gas and meet their death as a direct consequence of the aforementioned killing process.
If you didn't get that then, you're still in time.
2) You commented my original post, first by hinting to only a portion of one of my paragraph, by writing:
.........a great number of Jews had been eliminated by means of the gas vans
to evidentiate my intention to put the Jewish component within the frame of my comments as if it were the main subject. Wrong again!
Evidence: I wrote:
I would, if asked, make mine, the final comments from Roberto that the question on whether it was more or less economically justifiable the adoption of such a method of killing is, in that context, irrelevant, given the fact that we have testimonies coming from the perpetrators themselves confirming that a great number of Jews had been eliminated by means of the gas vans. In other words, those Jews were not spared by the eventual uneconomical aspect of their being killed within the four walls of a truck instead of, let's say, being shot in their heads on the edge of one or more mass graves.
This passage comes BEFORE (and not after) the cited Nizkor document enphasizing the fact that the use of the GAS VANS, whether economic or not was confirmed in the case of the mass killings of Jews, and in such a context, it might as well been used in the Krasnodar, Kharkov or any other area you might want to add there, whether Jews and/or any other people of your choice were involved in those killings.
Once again, the fact that, later on, in my post I wrote that
Ok, though this has not to do directly with your subject contribution, it clarifies that death could be administered through the use of diesel engines.
shows you were, as we say here, "out for butterflies", in other words, petulantly looking for an apostrophe to change the meaning of a word.
Neither very attractive nor inspiring, but any one breaths the air he's got, if it smells there's no way to make it odorless. By the way, I wonder whether those fumes from the vans were telling or not, I guess they were, though, but sure it was too late for the victims.
And to think that when we were kids, we loved running with our bikes (=bycicles) till we could get a hold of a truck to feel the breeze and smell the diesel it left behind. Kids are kids, of course. (I wouldn't do it now
)
Proceeding with our revision of the quotes, as they stood, you concluded by saying:
This raises an important point. Angelo, I think, has jumped to the conclusion that the persons killed in the gas-vans or "dushegubki" in Krasnodar province, as alleged by the prosecution in the Krasnodar Trial, were Jews. But in fact the report of the trial quoted by Scott Smith nowhere identifies them as such.
You went on by saying:
It is equally as likely that the persons killed in the gas-vans were actually patients in mental or other hospitals. That appears to have been one of the major uses to which those vehicles were put in the occupied Soviet Union, and also seems to be the reason for the development of this particular killing technology
and I didn't object to it at all, as I thought it just as feasible though it's all but a proven fact that they killed more lunatics than Jews and/or partisans, etc. No Judeocentric thought, just a simple fact.
When it came to my answer, I said and still say what follows:
While it is true, Michael, that Scott's quoted report doesn't mention Jews as being the victims of the gas vans methodology in the Krasnodar territory, I jumped to the conclusion that among those victims there must have been Jews according to a number of references I'm just quoting hereunder:
And it was perfectly fit to my NON-"Judeocentric" phylosophy that I quoted those references where both Jews and non-Jews are the subject of their reports.
If you could at least read my quotes the way they do, you wouldn't be talking the way you do:
I said:
While it is true, Michael, that Scott's quoted report doesn't mention Jews as being the victims of the gas vans methodology in the Krasnodar territory, I jumped to the conclusion that among those victims there must have been Jews according to a number of references I'm just quoting hereunder:
I guess that by being used to the historico-forensic jargoon, you have lost the ability to read the common, simple language that's supposed to be the basic foundation to develop an average good knowlege of any specialised branch of it. No problem, I'm here to help
Let's see:
1)
The Murder of Krasnodar Jewery, covered by
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x13/xr1351.html gives a date,
August 16 and 17 for the preliminary German actions intended to gather those 7000 people, mostly Jews, that were killed a couple of weeks later by elements of Sonderkommando 10/a.
Bad enough for me (the death of any one makes me feel bad), but good enough for your Judeo-eccentric mentality. I'm happy with an average man-of-the-street nose to tell a 3-day fish from a just caught, vivid eyed barracuda
2)
The Krasnodar Trial of 1943, covered by
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/res ... ideogl.htm
clearly states that
During this six month period thirteen thousand Soviets were murdered by the Nazis, beginning with and including every member of the Jewish community.
You can go to the movie and then report on whether that statement is worth trusting or not. For the moment being, I think it's plausible.
3) I would again mention all the other references which don't mention Jews because it WAS NOT MY INTENTION THEN and IT IS NOT MY INTENTION NOW to exclude from the "privilege" of being taken care of by such lovely units as those mentioned, as well as by any other unit which devoted itself to such glorious deeds, any people belonging to whatever race or nationality, including the Germans. Help yourself if that could give your Judeo-eccentricity a boost. Always glad to help
As for the evacuation issue you should consider that:
1) In the very first stages, there simply wasn't enough time for the Russian civilians to escape that far to be safe from further penetration by the invading German Army.
In the North, on June, 26, (4 days after the initial onslaught) the Germans were crossing the bridges of Dvinsk and were already some 185 miles inside the Soviet territories, one branch heading toward Narva and Pskov and another on its bltzing way to Minsk and the Beresina which were reached on 27th and 30th June that is, 5 to 8 days after the race started.
On 25th July, Tallin is conquered.
2) Things went even better in the Center where, on July 16, less than a month from the beginning, the Germans begin their encirclement of Smolensk, which will be concluded 10 days after with the capture of some 100.000 prisoners.
3) True that in the South things got a little slowed down by the late getting into the fray of the Rumanians (Aug. 2) and by the centre/south pivoting stronghold of Brest-Litovsk which will only fall about a month later (July 23) thus hampering a bit the flow of supplies around the southern edge of the Pripyet Marshes for the units on their way to Kiev.
Evidently, in this period of time, the russian civilians, who didn't own a car or two per family as their western counterparts in the post-war years, couldn't race very far by either walking, clippety-clopping on mule's back, jumping over tractors or a few left over 1920's trucks belonging to the Party or riding the rails that were almost under constant attack from the German air units. Sure, in those days, the Party didn't oppose at all to people evacuating their homes, but the results, given the speed of the advancing German mobile units, did not ensure a safe distance between them and their enemies.
Stalin did order the evacuation of the factories soon after realizing how dangerously fast was the war pace but even in that case most of the families, the old, women with children, the sick and even the kids below their teens, couldn't make hundreds of kms. to be on the safe side.
Finally in the Summer of 42, when the Stalingrad nonsense was about to happen, Stalin made it clear that not just for the soldiers but for everyone, the time to run the crooked rat's race was over. And even then, he didn't change things much in relation to the evacuation of civilians as they had been seriously hampered carrying it out when the Red Militia wouldn't oppose them, and now they wouldn't be better off at all with such a change of procedures which would only build up on their already experienced difficulties of all kind.
I have no time, right now, to go get all the papers from documents I read and still have, but that's the way it went.
If it doesn't suit your tastes, no problem, there are so many things that just don't suit mine, so let's smile and drink it down (I mean a glass of wine, or beer, if you like it better) before it gets tasteless
Michael, no offense, but, while you may be right on some points, you really got it wrong on others
Happens to me too
Angelo
PS- Thanks Medor for those documents you listed. As always, you're a St. Patrick's Well ! I wish I was a good swimmer