Fun with DIESEL GAS-VANS at Krasnodar and Kharkov...

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Roberto
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Re: More Gas-Vans...

#16

Post by Roberto » 25 Mar 2002, 16:18

Scott Smith wrote:SOVIET War Documents

June, 1941—November, 1943
Addresses, notes, orders of the day, statements

Information Bulletin,
Embassy of the USSR, Washington, D.C.
Publication August 14, 1943,
pp. 171-172.

Statement of

EXTRAORDINARY STATE COMMITTEE

For the Ascertaining and Investigation of Crimes Committed by the German Fascist Invaders and Their Associates and Damage Caused by Them to Citizens, Collective Farms, Public Bodies, State Enterprises and institutions of the USSR

On the crimes of the German-fascist occupationists in the Stavropol area:


“…It has been established that the Germans engaged in mass extermination of the peaceful Soviet population by poisoning them with carbon monoxide in the specially adapted ‘murderess’ [sic] vans.

“War prisoner Fenichel stated: ‘Working as an auto mechanic I had chance to learn in detail the construction of the vans specially adapted for suffocating and exterminating people with exhaust gas. In the town of Stavropol the Gestapo had several such vans. They were constructed as follows:

“The body was approximately five meters long and two and one half meters wide. The height of the body was also approximately two and a half meters. The body was shaped like a railroad car without windows and lined inside with galvanized sheet-iron; on the floor, also covered with sheet-iron, lay a wooden grating. The door of the car was lined with rubber and tightly closed with an automatic lock. On the floor of the van under the grating were two metal pipes about one and a half inches in diameter and two and a half meters long. These pipes were connected with a transverse pipe of equal diameter (in the shape of a capital H). In these pipes were numerous holes one-half centimeter in width; from the transverse pipe down through a hole in the galvanized iron floor ran a rubber hose with a hexagonal nut at the end threaded to fit the thread on the end of the engine exhaust pipe. This hose was screwed to an exhaust pipe and when the engine is running all exhaust gas goes into the body of this hermetically sealed van. As a result of this concentration of gas a person inside dies within a short space of time. Seventy to eighty persons could be put into the body of the van. The van had a ‘Sauer’ engine; the body was constructed in Berlin, and on the left-hand side near the engine was a metal plate with the inscription: ‘Auto-Body Building Works of Joint Stock Company in Berlin.’”
Quite an interesting deposition, with striking similarities to depositions of former Einsatzgruppen members before West German courts and to documentary evidence such as Just's letter to Rauff dated 5 June 1942 that can be read under the following link:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/194206 ... zialwagen/

The Saurer vans seem to have had certain inconveniences in regard to the smaller vans used, according to Becker's letter to Rauff of 26 May 1942:
The overhauling of the vans of Groups D and C is concluded. While the vans of the first series can also be used when the weather is not all too bad, the vans of the second series (Saurer) are completely immobilized in rainy weather. This because if it has been raining for only half an hour the van cannot be operated because it simply slips away. It can only be used in good weather. The question now arises if the van can only be used at the place of execution standing. The van must first be brought to that place, which is possible only in good weather. The place of execution, however, is located at least 10-15 km away from the traffic routes and is already difficult to access due to its location; in bad weather it is inaccessible altogether. If those to be executed are led or driven to this place, they notice immediately what is going on and become restless, which should be avoided. The only remaining possibility is to load them in at the place of assembly and then to drive them out.
See the complete text of the letter in my post of Mar 20, 2002 6:52 pm on the thread

Inside the RSHA
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 9d6db03d04

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Roberto
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#17

Post by Roberto » 25 Mar 2002, 16:45

medorjurgen wrote:The following sources regarding the use of gas vans by Einsatzgruppe D in the Crimea and the areas of Krasnodar and Stavropol are quoted on pages 97 to 107 of Kogon/Langbein/Rückerl et al, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas:

- Judgment of the Munich County Court, 17 September 1975, against Max Drexler and Walter Kehrer. Site of killings: Simferopol. Victims: Jews.

- Judgment of the Munich County Court, 19.12.1980, against Dr. Kurt Christmann and others. Site of killings: Not specified in quoted passage. Victims: Not specified in quoted passage.

- Deposition of witness Kotov at the Soviet Krasnodar trial on 16 July 1943. Site of killings: Krasnodar. Victims: Not specified, apparently patients of a city hospital.

- Judgment of the Munich County Court, 14 July 1972, against Trimborn et al. Site of killings: Jeissk. Victims: inmates of an institution for handicapped children.

- Judgment of the Munich County Court, 23 March 1972, against Finger and others. Site of killings: Kerch. Victims: Jews.

- Deposition of Paul Zapp, ZSL:213 AR 1900/66, Volume I, page 83 and following. Site of killings: Sevastopol. Victims: Jews.

- Deposition of Johannes Schlupper, StA München I AZ: 115 Ks 6/71
Site of killings: Tcherkessk. Victims: Jews.

- Deposition of Eugenia Ostrovec, filed in the Soviet collection "Dokumenti Obwinjajut". Site of killings: Pjatigorsk. Victims: Russian civilians.

At the end of the chapter, the deposition of German prisoner of war Fenichel filed in the same collection is mentioned. Fenichel testified about the killing of 660 mental patients between 5 and 10 August 1942 at Stavropol and about the killing of 54 severly ill little children at Spa-Teberda.
A summary of the trial against Kurt Christmann et al can be found on the Justiz und NS-Verbrechen - website of the University of Amsterdam:
Verfahren Lfd.Nr.864
Tatkomplex: Kriegsverbrechen
Angeklagte:
Chri., Dr. Kurt 10 Jahre
Gerichtsentscheidungen:
LG München I 801219
BGH 821111
Tatland: GUS
Tatort: Krasnodar, Marjanskaja
Tatzeit: 4208-4302
Opfer: Zivilisten, Widerstandskämpfer
Nationalität: Sowjetische
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK10a
Verfahrensgegenstand: Tötung in Krasnodar inhaftierter Partisanen, Angehöriger von Partisanen - darunter zweier Kinder - und partisanenverdächtiger Zivilisten durch Vergasen mittels 'Gaswagen' . Verhaftung von etwa 60 Partisanen, Partisanenverdächtigen und Kommunisten aus dem Dorfe Marjanskaja sowie Erschiessung eines Teiles der Festgenommen am Kubanfluss
Source of quote:

http://www.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/Gericht03fr.htm

My translation:
Case Nr. 864
Crime Category: War Crimes
Accused:
Chri., Dr. Kurt, 10 years
Court Decisions:
LG München I 801219
BGH 821111
Country where the crime was committed: CIS (former USSR)
Crime Location: Krasnodar, Marjanskaja
Crime Date: 4208-4302
Victims: Civilians, resistance fighters
Nationality: Soviet
Dienststelle: Einsatzgruppen EK10a
Subject of the Proceeding: Killing of partisans imprisoned at Krasnodar, relatives of partisans - thereof two children - and civilians suspect of partisan activity through 'gas vans'. Detention of about 60 partisans, partisan suspects and communists from the village Marjanskaja and shooting of a part of the detained at the Kuban river.


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Scott Smith
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Delousing Vans

#18

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Mar 2002, 22:43

Medorjurgen wrote:I would especially be interested in what you think happened to the mentioned Jewish women and children in the "delousing van".
I don't see any reason to assume that a "delousing van" is anything other than what it says. If noncombatants were being concentrated into a camp it would be imperative to undergo the delousing process to keep disease under control. The delousing vans were everywhere. The memo says that male Jews were roundly shot, in keeping with standard bellicose NS verbiage about the Jews being the enemy, but to assume that the women and children were gassed is a leap of logic.

It never ceases to amaze me these NS butchers who wet their pants at the sight of blood and need to stuff people into hokey "gassing vans" to fortify their nerves, as if that was easier than shooting. Pure bunk.
:roll: :roll:

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Fuel-Air Ratio and the LOAD

#19

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Mar 2002, 22:58

Medorjurgen wrote:++Of course, diesel engines NEVER produce "a high-concentration of carbon monoxide," EXCEPT in the very fertile imaginations of Greuelpropagandists.++

<<Depends on the fuel-air ratio, which in turn depends on how much fuel is put into the engine and how much air it is allowed to take in, as often explained. Smith’s “NEVER” is just a quaint piece of make-believe.>>
The fuel-air ratio cannot be made abnormally rich unless there is a heavy, heavy load on the motor.

Of course, here we are NOT talking about REAL diesel engines but "Holocaust diesel engines."

You see, with "Holocaust diesel engines" there is a magic knob on the motor that can only be seen by Ukrainian HiWis, and only if a sadistic SS officer is whipping them on the face.

I hate when that happens.

But when it does, that magical knob can be magically dialed and we can get a high Fuel-Air ratio WITHOUT a high load on the motor.

I wonder what it would be like to have one of those magical SS riding crops or whips (accounts vary) ... but then again, I'm NOT into leather.
:roll: :roll:

SS-Wirth: Had a magic whip (or riding crop).

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Angelo
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Gas Vans

#20

Post by Angelo » 25 Mar 2002, 23:15

Michael,

I think you messed it up with your intention to demonstrate a prejudicial attitude on my part to always see Jews in any bunch of people massacred by the Nazis.
You were and are wrong at that and I'll show it to you with a few examples.

1) In my first answer to Scott's post I made it clear from the start for all average clever readers that what I was worrying and talking about was mainly the issue of GAS VANS as instruments of death and NOT the presence or not of Jews in the Krasnodar-Kharkov areas. What I did, was copying the Nizkor document (http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/reinhard/rei ... aq-07.html) as it dealt with the GAS VANS question.
I showed that intention of mine by writing what follows:
Ok, though this has not to do directly with your subject contribution, it clarifies that death could be administered through the use of diesel engines.
For less than average clever readers that meant: "I know that what is being hinted there, such as the General Government, Resettlement policies, Treblinka and the like has nothing to do directly with the contents of your post as to dates, geographic areas, etc. but I used it because it has to do with the GAS VANS functional capability to be used as, let me see, instruments, machinery, automotive equipment, selfpropelled truck-shaped vehicles, equipped with the necessary piping and fittings to discharge venomous gas of variously defined types and concentrations into their more or less rectangular shaped van housing so that the human guests being tightly closed therein could get their lungs filled up with the above mentioned poisonous gas and meet their death as a direct consequence of the aforementioned killing process.

If you didn't get that then, you're still in time.

2) You commented my original post, first by hinting to only a portion of one of my paragraph, by writing:
.........a great number of Jews had been eliminated by means of the gas vans
to evidentiate my intention to put the Jewish component within the frame of my comments as if it were the main subject. Wrong again!

Evidence: I wrote:
I would, if asked, make mine, the final comments from Roberto that the question on whether it was more or less economically justifiable the adoption of such a method of killing is, in that context, irrelevant, given the fact that we have testimonies coming from the perpetrators themselves confirming that a great number of Jews had been eliminated by means of the gas vans. In other words, those Jews were not spared by the eventual uneconomical aspect of their being killed within the four walls of a truck instead of, let's say, being shot in their heads on the edge of one or more mass graves.
This passage comes BEFORE (and not after) the cited Nizkor document enphasizing the fact that the use of the GAS VANS, whether economic or not was confirmed in the case of the mass killings of Jews, and in such a context, it might as well been used in the Krasnodar, Kharkov or any other area you might want to add there, whether Jews and/or any other people of your choice were involved in those killings.
Once again, the fact that, later on, in my post I wrote that
Ok, though this has not to do directly with your subject contribution, it clarifies that death could be administered through the use of diesel engines.
shows you were, as we say here, "out for butterflies", in other words, petulantly looking for an apostrophe to change the meaning of a word.
Neither very attractive nor inspiring, but any one breaths the air he's got, if it smells there's no way to make it odorless. By the way, I wonder whether those fumes from the vans were telling or not, I guess they were, though, but sure it was too late for the victims.
And to think that when we were kids, we loved running with our bikes (=bycicles) till we could get a hold of a truck to feel the breeze and smell the diesel it left behind. Kids are kids, of course. (I wouldn't do it now :) )
Proceeding with our revision of the quotes, as they stood, you concluded by saying:
This raises an important point. Angelo, I think, has jumped to the conclusion that the persons killed in the gas-vans or "dushegubki" in Krasnodar province, as alleged by the prosecution in the Krasnodar Trial, were Jews. But in fact the report of the trial quoted by Scott Smith nowhere identifies them as such.


You went on by saying:
It is equally as likely that the persons killed in the gas-vans were actually patients in mental or other hospitals. That appears to have been one of the major uses to which those vehicles were put in the occupied Soviet Union, and also seems to be the reason for the development of this particular killing technology
and I didn't object to it at all, as I thought it just as feasible though it's all but a proven fact that they killed more lunatics than Jews and/or partisans, etc. No Judeocentric thought, just a simple fact.

When it came to my answer, I said and still say what follows:
While it is true, Michael, that Scott's quoted report doesn't mention Jews as being the victims of the gas vans methodology in the Krasnodar territory, I jumped to the conclusion that among those victims there must have been Jews according to a number of references I'm just quoting hereunder:
And it was perfectly fit to my NON-"Judeocentric" phylosophy that I quoted those references where both Jews and non-Jews are the subject of their reports.
If you could at least read my quotes the way they do, you wouldn't be talking the way you do:

I said:
While it is true, Michael, that Scott's quoted report doesn't mention Jews as being the victims of the gas vans methodology in the Krasnodar territory, I jumped to the conclusion that among those victims there must have been Jews according to a number of references I'm just quoting hereunder:
I guess that by being used to the historico-forensic jargoon, you have lost the ability to read the common, simple language that's supposed to be the basic foundation to develop an average good knowlege of any specialised branch of it. No problem, I'm here to help :)

Let's see:

1) The Murder of Krasnodar Jewery, covered by http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x13/xr1351.html gives a date,
August 16 and 17 for the preliminary German actions intended to gather those 7000 people, mostly Jews, that were killed a couple of weeks later by elements of Sonderkommando 10/a.
Bad enough for me (the death of any one makes me feel bad), but good enough for your Judeo-eccentric mentality. I'm happy with an average man-of-the-street nose to tell a 3-day fish from a just caught, vivid eyed barracuda :lol:

2) The Krasnodar Trial of 1943, covered by http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/res ... ideogl.htm
clearly states that
During this six month period thirteen thousand Soviets were murdered by the Nazis, beginning with and including every member of the Jewish community.
You can go to the movie and then report on whether that statement is worth trusting or not. For the moment being, I think it's plausible. :)

3) I would again mention all the other references which don't mention Jews because it WAS NOT MY INTENTION THEN and IT IS NOT MY INTENTION NOW to exclude from the "privilege" of being taken care of by such lovely units as those mentioned, as well as by any other unit which devoted itself to such glorious deeds, any people belonging to whatever race or nationality, including the Germans. Help yourself if that could give your Judeo-eccentricity a boost. Always glad to help :)

As for the evacuation issue you should consider that:

1) In the very first stages, there simply wasn't enough time for the Russian civilians to escape that far to be safe from further penetration by the invading German Army.
In the North, on June, 26, (4 days after the initial onslaught) the Germans were crossing the bridges of Dvinsk and were already some 185 miles inside the Soviet territories, one branch heading toward Narva and Pskov and another on its bltzing way to Minsk and the Beresina which were reached on 27th and 30th June that is, 5 to 8 days after the race started.
On 25th July, Tallin is conquered.

2) Things went even better in the Center where, on July 16, less than a month from the beginning, the Germans begin their encirclement of Smolensk, which will be concluded 10 days after with the capture of some 100.000 prisoners.

3) True that in the South things got a little slowed down by the late getting into the fray of the Rumanians (Aug. 2) and by the centre/south pivoting stronghold of Brest-Litovsk which will only fall about a month later (July 23) thus hampering a bit the flow of supplies around the southern edge of the Pripyet Marshes for the units on their way to Kiev.

Evidently, in this period of time, the russian civilians, who didn't own a car or two per family as their western counterparts in the post-war years, couldn't race very far by either walking, clippety-clopping on mule's back, jumping over tractors or a few left over 1920's trucks belonging to the Party or riding the rails that were almost under constant attack from the German air units. Sure, in those days, the Party didn't oppose at all to people evacuating their homes, but the results, given the speed of the advancing German mobile units, did not ensure a safe distance between them and their enemies.
Stalin did order the evacuation of the factories soon after realizing how dangerously fast was the war pace but even in that case most of the families, the old, women with children, the sick and even the kids below their teens, couldn't make hundreds of kms. to be on the safe side.
Finally in the Summer of 42, when the Stalingrad nonsense was about to happen, Stalin made it clear that not just for the soldiers but for everyone, the time to run the crooked rat's race was over. And even then, he didn't change things much in relation to the evacuation of civilians as they had been seriously hampered carrying it out when the Red Militia wouldn't oppose them, and now they wouldn't be better off at all with such a change of procedures which would only build up on their already experienced difficulties of all kind.
I have no time, right now, to go get all the papers from documents I read and still have, but that's the way it went.
If it doesn't suit your tastes, no problem, there are so many things that just don't suit mine, so let's smile and drink it down (I mean a glass of wine, or beer, if you like it better) before it gets tasteless :wink:

Michael, no offense, but, while you may be right on some points, you really got it wrong on others :) Happens to me too :wink:

Angelo

PS- Thanks Medor for those documents you listed. As always, you're a St. Patrick's Well ! I wish I was a good swimmer :)

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#21

Post by michael mills » 26 Mar 2002, 07:29

Angelo wrote:
Michael, no offense, but, while you may be right on some points, you really got it wrong on others
What were the points I got wrong? Let's have a look at my main claims.

1. The gas-vans were developed for the purpose of killing patients in Soviet hospitals and asylums (for the purpose of making the buildings available for other uses, and reducing the unproductive part of the population).

The development of the gas-van is only partially documented, although it is enough to give us a fairly accurate picture. The first gas-vans, using bottled CO, were used in 1940 exclusively to kill inmates of Polish mental hospitals. The gas-vans using their own exhaust as the killing agent were developed in the context of the clearance of Soviet mental hospitals, initially by shooting. Evidence from Soviet sources shows them being used primarily to kill mental patients and other hospital inmates in various places, including Krasnodar.

Of course, the gas-vans were also used in some cases to kill Jewish women and children when ghettos were liquidated or reduced, particularly during 1942, but also later. However, that was not their original use, their sole use, or perhaps even their main use. To present the gas-vans primarily as an instrument for killing Jews, while ignoring the main group of victims for which this technology was introduced, is an example of the Judeocentrism that I oppose.

Gerald Reitlinger, the first comprehensive historian of the "Final Solution", wrote in his book of that name (p. 243):
"The vans were issued to the Einsatzgruppen in the spring of 1942 chiefly for the purpose of executing women and children. Both Russian and German reports suggest that the principle [sic! should be"principal"] use was the daily reduction of hospitals, asylums, and orphanages. They were never sufficient for mass executions and, though they were used in the final liquidation of the Minsk and Smolensk Ghettoes, this was only done in 1943 when the numbers involved were small. The gassing vans have a peculiar horror, but their part in the 'Final Solution' in Russia has been over-estimated."

2. The great majority of the victims of the gassings at Krasnodar were non-Jewish.

The evidence at the Christmann Trial bears that out completely. The victims were mainly hospital patients of Russian nationality. It appears that some of the victims were Jews, but how many? How do we know that most of the 7,000 killed soon after the arrival of German forces were Jewish? Sources with a judeocentric ideology, such as the Simon Wiesenthal Centre, make that claim, but offer no evidence, apart from naming one Jewish victim.

3. The great majority of the Jews in the German-occupied areas of the Soviet Union were able to get away and flee eastward into the interior of the country.

Of cours, that varied from area to area. In the western borderlands, the German advance was so rapid that only a minority managed to flee. However, further to the east, there was sufficient time to evacuate most of the population, and almost all the Jews.

Let's have a look at some actual figures, quoted by Reitlinger in "Final Solution".

Baltic States: Of an original 250,000 Jews, 180,000 came under German control (p. 214). The remainder had been evacuated in June 1941, just before the German invasion (about 25,000), or had fled after the invasion. This is an example of an area where the majority of the Jews was trapped by the rapid German advance.

White Russia: Reitlinger writes (p. 221) "In the area covered by Einsatzgruppe B there had lived about 850,000 Jews, nearly half a million of them in former Polish territory. The Einsatzgruppen statistics suggest that less than a third stayed behind after the invasion, but even this figure seems remarkably big for a country offering such opportunities of escape". So even in White Russia, one of the areas occupied very rapidly, at least two-thirds of the Jews managed to escape.

On page 222, Reitlinger gives even more detailed statistics:

"The extent of the flight of the Jews from the Soviet part of White Russia can be gauged from the Einsatzgruppen reports concerning the liquidation of the ghettoes, established by the Germans in Witebsk, Bobruisk, Mogilev, and Borissov. Witebsk had a Jewish population of 37,013 in 1926 and may have had 45,000 in 1941 according to Solomon M. Schwarz. If one trusts the Einsatzgruppen daily report of December 19th, 1941 (No 2824), the liqidation of the Witebsj Ghetto was then complete, but only 4,090 Jews had been shot. Bobruisk had 21, 558 Jews in 1926 and possibly 28,000 in 1941 according to Schwarz. In December, when Bobruisk was declared judenrein, some 6,179 Jews had been shot. Mogilev contained from 20,000 to 27,000 Jews and here the total killings, recorded by the Einsatzgruppen, came to 4,844."

Ukraine: Reitlinger writes (pp, 227-8) "In Eastern Galicia 80 per cent of the Jewish population remained, while in Lwow the Jewish population had actually increased, but in the historic towns of the pre-industrial Russian Ukraine, Winnitsa, Zhitomir, Berdichev, Uman, Nikolaiev, and Kherson only a quarter or a fifth of the Jews stayed on and this was equally true of the enormous Jewish agglomerations to the East, the towns along the Dnieper, Kiev, Kharkov, and Dniepropetrowsk. Further East still in the Donetz and Kuban basins and North of the Caucasus only a small percentage of the Jews awaited the Germans.

Not only did the bulk of the three million Jews of pre-war Soviet Russia escape to the interior but also a very large proportion of the 1,800,000 Jews of the annexed territories. Although the number of those who reached the sanctuary of South Siberia and the Volga-Ural region may never be known, it is possible that three quarters of the present [1953] Jewish population of Europe are to be found in the Soviet Union, whereas before the war there was less than a third. This result was not due to any special favour of the Russian Gocernment towards Jewry. It was simply that, as the Germans approached the industrial belt, it became the Russian policy to remove the working population so that the towns should not benefit the enemy. In most captured towns less than half the population stayed. Not to consent to be evacuated was regarded as a hostile act, often visited with dire consequences later."

The above statistics are not the sort that you will get from judeocentric ideologues like Medorjurgen. They provide hard evidence that refutes your speculations.

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#22

Post by Angelo » 26 Mar 2002, 12:17

Michael, thanks for your answer. I know Reitlinger since the 50's, and I respect his works (History of the S.S. etc.) but, of course, he is not the only one with estimates on the mass murder of Jews.

At any rate, now I can't go deeper into that. If I manage to get a little time to do it, I will and I'll give you my comments.

Personally, I wouldn't say Medorjurgen has a Judeocentric approach to history. After all, it's not his fault if the Jews were such a major issue in the history of criminal actions committed against a people on grounds of their race before and during World War II.
Actually, I could research and show you many an example where Medorjurgen emphasized that such crimes didn't concern the Jews only, but the Poles, the Gypsies, the Russians, etc. in the clear spirit of someone who is not Judeocentric, but historycentric.

I think that, however, the fact that so many evidences of all kinds, from the perpetrators' confessions in the course of proceedings, to testimonials of people who survived, to findings and pictures unmistakably relating to the crimes in question, being in so many cases ridiculized or depicted as forgeries, or simply discarded as unworthy of trust or having no weight at all on substantiating the charges they were related to, well such an attitude besides being ethically and historically censorable doesn't help none in keeping the records straight. It only shows how hardly the patience of even the coolest of the researchers is put at stakes, regardless of the unbearability of the pretended claims for acquittal that such nonsenses were expected to back and prove in the biased minds of those who follow this trend.

I noticed that there are quite a number of these fellows and I wonder if their negationist attitude, disguised as merely revisionistic, is not sufficient to prove, beyond and above their words, they are out to give the Nazis a chance to show up again with an acceptable look so that what they couldn't achieve some decades ago might be compensated by their return on the international political stage to give their sick portion of criminal ideals a new try.

Sure, nobody is totally free from a given degree of biasing, if only for all the elements we're being subject to be influenced by, throughout all of our lives, but from this to what I could see on these forums, in terms of negation of reality, there's a whole ocean in between.

Let's hope we'll all do our best not to follow suit or we might as well go playing hide-and-seek down in the street and get more kicks than just keep on watching such a miserable comedy.

Angelo

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Roberto
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#23

Post by Roberto » 26 Mar 2002, 15:42

++I would especially be interested in what you think happened to the mentioned Jewish women and children in the "delousing van".++

<<I don't see any reason to assume that a "delousing van" is anything other than what it says. If noncombatants were being concentrated into a camp it would be imperative to undergo the delousing process to keep disease under control. The delousing vans were everywhere. The memo says that male Jews were roundly shot, in keeping with standard bellicose NS verbiage about the Jews being the enemy, but to assume that the women and children were gassed is a leap of logic.>>

Let’s have another look at Turner’s letter, which Smith is obviously hoping that our audience will not have read:
May I use this occasion to send you as an attachment a copy of a letter from me to the Reichsführer of January 15, 1942 to which I have yet to receive an answer. I am not complaining because as I know, such things take time and I don't feel it is right for me to press the Reichsführer for the settlement of an affair. I know that for such matters you have an interest and the reason I now draw your attention to it is only because this question is now more than critical. Already some months ago, I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp, which in any event since the arrival of Meyssner and the turning over of this camp to him, was continued by him. Then the time is come in which the Jewish officers to be found in prisoner of war camps under the Geneva Convention find out against our will about their no longer existing kinfolk and that could easily lead to complications.
Emphases are mine.

What becomes clear from the above is that

i) the “delousing van” (quote marks are Turner’s, not mine, which all by itself suggests that the “delousing van” was not a delousing van) was used to bring about a “definitive clearing out of the camp”;

ii) the women and children in the camp would be “no longer existing kinfolk” after that “definitive clearing out of the camp”.

Yet Smith nevertheless considers it possible that the “delousing van” was really a delousing van. That’s what I call a True Believer, stubbornly and obsessively blind to everything that does not fit into his ideological bubble.

<<It never ceases to amaze me these NS butchers who wet their pants at the sight of blood and need to stuff people into hokey "gassing vans" to fortify their nerves, as if that was easier than shooting. Pure bunk.>>

Aware of the weakness of his contentions, Smith tries to decorate them with some additional spam, despite the fact that what he calls “pure bunk” is thoroughly documented and that the issue was not the butchers’ “wetting their pants” at the sight of blood but the fact that a considerable number of them gradually succumbed to the constant stress of shooting huge numbers of people, many of them women and children, day after day over a period of weeks or months. As Michael Mills volunteered to tell us on the thread

Einsatzgruppen demographics and Paul Blobel
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 41364569de

of this forum:
Most of the Einsatzgruppe and Einsatzkommando comanders were "desk warriors" from the RSHA who were sent East by Heydrich to "get their hands dirty".
This makes it even less surprising that some of them should not have stood the pressure of constantly butchering innocents. However dedicated to duty, they were ordinary people, many of them loving husbands and fathers, not the cold-blooded killers that Smith imagines them to have been. The concern of their superiors for their wellbeing becomes apparent i.a. in Rauff’s deposition before the German embassy in Santiago de Chile on 28 June 1972:
Whether at that time I had doubts against the use of gas vans I cannot say. The main issue for me at the time was that the shootings were a considerable burden for the man who were in charge thereof and that this burden was taken off them through the use of the gas vans.
The full translation of Rauff’s deposition can be found on the thread

Inside the RSHA
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 41364569de

of this forum.
--Of course, diesel engines NEVER produce "a high-concentration of carbon monoxide," EXCEPT in the very fertile imaginations of Greuelpropagandists.--

++Depends on the fuel-air ratio, which in turn depends on how much fuel is put into the engine and how much air it is allowed to take in, as often explained. Smith’s “NEVER” is just a quaint piece of make-believe.++


<<The fuel-air ratio cannot be made abnormally rich unless there is a heavy, heavy load on the motor.>>

Bullshit. Opening the throttle and then restricting the air intake will do, whether Smith likes it or not. Smith conveniently avoided quoting my statement whole:
Depends on the fuel-air ratio, which in turn depends on how much fuel is put into the engine and how much air it is allowed to take in, as often explained. Smith’s “NEVER” is just a quaint piece of make-believe. See my posts # 1755 (3/6/02 3:19:12 pm), # 1758 (3/6/02 4:50:11 pm), # 1760 (3/6/02 5:09:42 pm), # 1772 (3/7/02 12:32:38 pm) and 1788(3/8/02 2:50:58 pm) on the thread

GAS CHAMBERS?
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... 1&stop=480

of the old forum.
Is he afraid that some readers might look up my above mentioned posts? That would be understandable considering that he could offer no reply to the last of them. After my post 1788 (3/8/02 2:50:58 pm)
on the above mentioned thread, Smith chose to withdraw behind his standard smokescreen of baloney.
Readers are encouraged to have a closer look at this very illustrative exchange.

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Roberto
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#24

Post by Roberto » 26 Mar 2002, 15:47

Let's have a look at some actual figures, quoted by Reitlinger in "Final Solution".

Baltic States: Of an original 250,000 Jews, 180,000 came under German control (p. 214). The remainder had been evacuated in June 1941, just before the German invasion (about 25,000), or had fled after the invasion. This is an example of an area where the majority of the Jews was trapped by the rapid German advance.

White Russia: Reitlinger writes (p. 221) "In the area covered by Einsatzgruppe B there had lived about 850,000 Jews, nearly half a million of them in former Polish territory. The Einsatzgruppen statistics suggest that less than a third stayed behind after the invasion, but even this figure seems remarkably big for a country offering such opportunities of escape". So even in White Russia, one of the areas occupied very rapidly, at least two-thirds of the Jews managed to escape.
With all due respect for Reitlinger, who was honest enough to admit that many of his estimates were “conjectural” due to the lack of data at the moment his book was written, his considerations have been overtaken by more recent research such as that of Christian Gerlach, who in his book Kalkulierte Morde estimated the number of people killed by the Nazi occupiers on the territory of Belarus at 345,000 victims of rural anti-partisan operations, about 700,000 prisoners of war, 500,000 to 550,000 Jews and 100,000 others, mainly Communist functionaries, members of the Polish intelligentsia, urban resistance fighters and their supporters and inmates of mental hospitals – altogether between 1.6 million and 1.7 million people.
Ukraine: Reitlinger writes (pp, 227- "In Eastern Galicia 80 per cent of the Jewish population remained, while in Lwow the Jewish population had actually increased, but in the historic towns of the pre-industrial Russian Ukraine, Winnitsa, Zhitomir, Berdichev, Uman, Nikolaiev, and Kherson only a quarter or a fifth of the Jews stayed on and this was equally true of the enormous Jewish agglomerations to the East, the towns along the Dnieper, Kiev, Kharkov, and Dniepropetrowsk. Further East still in the Donetz and Kuban basins and North of the Caucasus only a small percentage of the Jews awaited the Germans.
With all due respect for Reitlinger, his considerations regarding Ukraine also seem to be in conflict with the actual situation as reflected in the memorandum that the Armament Inspector Ukraine, Generalleutnant Hans Leykauf, sent to the Chief of the Industrial Armament Department
at the Wehrmacht Supreme Command on 2 December 1941:
Regulation of the Jewish question in the Ukraine was a difficult problem because the Jews constituted a large part of the urban population. We therefore have to deal -just as in the General Government- with a mass problem of policy concerning the population. Many cities had a percentage of Jews exceeding fifty percent. Only the rich Jews had fled from the German troops. The majority of Jews remained under German administration. The latter found the problem more complicated through the fact that these Jews represented almost the entire trade and even a part of the manpower in small and medium industries besides the business which had in part become superfluous as a direct or indirect result of the war. The elimination therefore necessarily had far-reaching economic consequences and even direct consequences for the armament industry (production for supplying the troops).
The translation of Leykauf’s memorandum and the original text, with the respective source reference, can be found in my post # 1281 (1/9/02 7:17:50 pm) on the thread

Non-Jewish victims of Nazi violence
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... 21&stop=39

<<The above statistics are not the sort that you will get from judeocentric ideologues like Medorjurgen. They provide hard evidence that refutes your speculations.>>

Why, now I am a “judeocentric ideologue”. An accusation that is likely to amuse everyone who has followed my posts on this forum, including but not limited to the ones on the above mentioned thread about non-Jewish victims of Nazi violence. While Michael Mills is ever more clearly revealing himself as a paranoid judeophobic propagandist, I am neither an ideologue, nor do I maintain that the Nazi genocide of the Jews was “unique” among other similar events or that Jews were the principal or central victims of Nazi violence.

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OPERATION OOPS!

#25

Post by Scott Smith » 27 Mar 2002, 10:10

Here is a chart using the familiar Holtz & Elliott (1941) data that illustrates the gas relationships in diesel exhaust and the engine LOAD...

As the load/horsepower increases, the oxygen content falls and the carbon dioxide content increases, because work is being done. Only when the engine is overloaded and thus at maximum power (despite opening the throttle ever-wider) can CO increase substantially. At test B-12, which is an unusually high loading of almost maximum power output, the carbon monoxide content is barely enough to cause a headache, although the oxygen content is now too low to breathe. This would be analogous to driving a diesel truck up a hill with the engine floorboarded but the truck's speed not changing. Only with a heavy load to work against can the Fuel-Air Ratio be increased to generate significant CO.

In the chart, you can see that at no-load or a normal-load the exhaust contains enough oxygen to actually be breathable, though not pleasantly so, as diesel exhaust is quite smelly and acrid.

In the famous 1957 tests with animals under various engine-operating conditions, death from diesel exhaust took HOURS. A more absurd method of execution by gassing could scarcely have been devised on purpose.

That's why it didn't happen.
Not even in Nazi Germany.
Not even to Jews.


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Last edited by Scott Smith on 06 Apr 2003, 05:07, edited 3 times in total.

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Roberto
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Re: OPERATION OOPS!

#26

Post by Roberto » 27 Mar 2002, 13:09

Scott Smith wrote:Here is a chart using the familiar Holtz & Elliott (1941) data that illustrates the gas relationships in diesel exhaust and the engine LOAD...

As the load/horsepower increases, the oxygen content falls and the carbon dioxide content increases, because work is being done. Only when the engine is overloaded and thus at maximum power (despite opening the throttle ever-wider) can CO increase substantially. At test B-12, which is an unusually high loading of almost maximum power output, the carbon monoxide content is barely enough to cause a headache, although the oxygen content is now too low to breathe. This would be analogous to driving a diesel truck up a hill with the engine floorboarded but the truck's speed not changing. Only with a heavy load to work against can the Fuel-Air Ratio be increased to generate significant CO.

In the chart, you can see that at no-load or a normal-load the exhaust contains enough oxygen to actually be breathable, though not pleasantly so, as diesel exhaust is quite smelly and acrid.

In the famous 1957 tests with animals under various engine-operating conditions, death from diesel exhaust took HOURS. A more absurd method of execution by gassing could scarcely have been devised on purpose.

That's why it didn't happen.
No even in Nazi Germany.
Not even to Jews.


Image
<<In the chart, you can see that at no-load or a normal-load the exhaust contains enough oxygen to actually be breathable, though not pleasantly so, as diesel exhaust is quite smelly and acrid.>>

What Smith’s beautiful chart again fails to show is the amount of fuel put into the engine in each of the experiments, especially the increase of the fuel supply in experiments B-70, B-72 and B-69 in relation to experiment B-12.

Whereas in experiment B-12 the fuel input was 18.12lbs/hr, it was 21.29lbs/hr in B-70 (an increase of 17.49 % in relation to B-12), 24.41lbs/hr in B72 (an increase of 34.65 % in relation to B-12) and 29.63lbs/hr in B-69 (an increase of 63.52 % in relation to B-12).

In the last experiment, the oxygen content was near zero and the CO content was 10 to 15 times the level that is lethal for human beings. That the increase of the fuel supply was the key factor in bringing this about becomes apparent from Holtz & Elliot’s own statements:
Although Fig. 2 presents data on exhaust-gas composition at fuel-air ratios on the rich side, such conditions of operation are not normal and were obtained in these tests by changing the adjustment on the stop limiting the travel of the rack on the fuel pump of engine B. After this change the fuel injected at full throttle was increased by approximately 60 per cent. When the engines were operated in their normal range the fuel-air ratio never exceeded 0.042 and 0.058 lb per lb for engines A and B, respectively.


Emphasis is mine.

Smith will now tell us that the increase of the fuel supply had this effect only because the engine was under load and thus could not turn any faster.

The composition of the exhaust, as Holtz & Elliot tell us, is chiefly a function of the fuel-air ratio, i.e. of how much air there is available to burn the fuel, which in turn depends on the amount of fuel pumped into the engine on the one hand and the amount of air it takes in due to its rotation on the other.

While I agree that it is easier to enhance the toxicity of an engine under load than that of an engine not under load by increasing the fuel supply, I see no evidence that the exhaust of an engine could not be made toxic enough by simply opening up the throttle, independently of there being a load.

Without a load, the engine would turn faster and thus take in more air, for sure, but would it take in so much more air as to match the increase of the fuel supply and thus keep the exhaust at a sub-toxic level?

If the fuel supply had been increased to 29.63 lbs/hr without a load or at a low load in the Holtz & Elliot experiments, would the exhaust have become lethally toxic, or would it have remained at the toxicity levels of experiments B-13, B-14, B-15 and B-16?

Smith has not yet demonstrated that the increased rotation speed in the absence of a load would lead to the air intake matching the fuel increase and thus keeping the exhaust at a sub-toxic level.

And even if he could demonstrate this, he would not yet have ruled out the enhancement of the exhaust’s toxicity by simultaneously restricting the engine’s air intake.

The latter method alone actually produced the most toxic exhaust in all of the experiments performed by Pattle, Stretch et al on mice and other animals in 1956, at a load that was described as “low”.

<<In the famous 1957 tests with animals under various engine-operating conditions, death from diesel exhaust took HOURS. A more absurd method of execution by gassing could scarcely have been devised on purpose.>>

The CO content of the exhaust was not lethal in these test, even the one where the air intake was restricted, because Pattle & Stretch used a tiny 6 bhp engine.

A comparison with the experiments of Holtz & Elliot in 1941, using 40 bhp and 70 bhp engines, and of Elliot & Davis in 1950, using a 150 bhp engine, suggests that the toxicity of a diesel engine’s fumes increases with the size of the engine. This means that the exhaust of an even much bigger engine like the one reportedly used at Treblinka (500 bhp) could be made reliably lethal by simply restricting the air intake the way Pattle & Stretch had done.

So if the exhaust of a large diesel engine was not reliably lethal when the engine was properly tuned and operating under normal conditions, it could easily be “mis-tuned” in such a way as to increase the fuel supply and/or restrict the air intake and thus produce exhaust reliably lethal on account of at least a too low oxygen content if not also a carbon monoxide content lethal all by itself.

At least two other people beside myself have come to the same conclusion.

One is Jamie McCarthy, who in his online article

Pat Buchanan and the Holocaust

http://www.holocaust-history.org/~jamie/buchanan/

wrote the following:
Let's look first at his claim about diesel engines. Many things are wrong with the diesel argument, and this will be the topic of a future webpage at this site. Here is the quickest way to debunk the claim: if the operator of the diesel engine races it up to high RPM and then restricts the air intake, the engine can be made to run arbitrarily rich, producing extremely low levels of oxygen.

The victims at the Reinhard camps were suffocated to death, not killed with carbon monoxide, because, although an intentionally-mistuned diesel produces enough carbon monoxide to kill you, the lack of oxygen will kill you first.

A properly-tuned diesel engine running at idle cannot kill: this is true. But unlike the locomotive engineer in Buchanan's example, who was concerned with saving the lives of trapped people, the Nazis had no qualms about opening the engine's throttle and restricting the air intake.
The other is our fellow poster Michael Mills, who in a 1998 Usenet article wrote the following:
The data at the COHQ site imply that the exhaust of a poorly tuned diesel engine could produce a CO concentration in the air high enough to be reliably lethal. If so, it is possible that poorly tuned diesel engines were used at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka for homicidal purposes. If that is the case, it should be reflected in testimony, ie there should be accounts of experiments with the tuning to find the setting that would produce a sufficiently high level of CO in the exhaust. Perhaps this is a topic for further research. Alternatively, it is possible that gasoline engines were used, but that would mean that a number of witnesses, such as Gerstein, were mistaken.
Source of quote:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... senet.9806

Mr. Mills’ assessment also illustrates the utter irrelevance of Smith’s technical arguments: Even if these arguments were correct and diesel exhaust had been an impracticable or inadequate killing method, this would only mean that the gassing engine used was a gasoline engine and that witnesses who described it as a diesel engine, or those who assessed the witnesses’ testimonials in this sense, were mistaken.

Smith would get a lot further with his promotion of “Revisionist” articles of faith it he could provide convincing answers to the questions addressed in my post # 1358 (1/25/02 10:36:23 pm) on the thread

Eyewitness Testimony
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... =1&stop=20

of the old forum.
One thing "scientific" Holocaust deniers like Berg and Fred Leuchter count on is the fact that many non-scientists can't follow scientific debates, and assume that if it is dressed up in scientific terms, it must be right. But there are many other scientific debates we see today - pollution, cancer, global warming, etc. - which enter into the political arena. Some of these arguments are made to support a hidden ideological agenda, and the science is dishonest. We hope that following the full argument will help people realize that just because something comes dressed up as "science" doesn't mean you should stop thinking critically about what you're being told.
Michael P. Stein, Friedrich Berg & the Diesel Issue

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniqu ... el-01.html
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCF...43.html#10

Berg is the father of the stance Smith is trying to sell. Further outpourings of this quack’s wisdom can be found under the following link:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... .friedrich

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Ovidius
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Berg

#27

Post by Ovidius » 27 Mar 2002, 15:05

Mr. Muehlenkamp,

You've posted the quote from F. P. Berg so many times, that now I know it almost by heart.

~Ovidius

Shiva
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Re: Berg

#28

Post by Shiva » 27 Mar 2002, 16:53

Ovidius wrote:Mr. Muehlenkamp,

You've posted the quote from F. P. Berg so many times, that now I know it almost by heart.

~Ovidius
_____________________________________________________________

Hehe Ovidius, don't vomit :wink:

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Angelo
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#29

Post by Angelo » 27 Mar 2002, 19:05

LOL...We wouldn't have no Sonderkommando squad here to scrub the floor :wink:

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Roberto
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Re: Berg

#30

Post by Roberto » 27 Mar 2002, 19:47

Ovidius wrote:Mr. Muehlenkamp,

You've posted the quote from F. P. Berg so many times, that now I know it almost by heart.

~Ovidius
Ovidius,

You are completely right. Berg is so rich in flowery statements that I could vary the quotes a little bit more, even though I like none as much as the one where he exhorts his fellow True Believers to keep the Faith.

I will thus in the future pick my FPB quotes from the selection hereafter. Constructive additions or other suggestions are welcome.
1. “Auschwitz was a nice place to spend the war--compared to many of the alternatives.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... nice-place

2. “With all of the bleating about the dearly beloved and lost six million Jews, one may lose sight of the fact that real war crimes occurred during WW2 and that these real war crimes were at least partially inspired by Jewish hatemongers not unlike many of the hatemongers busily at work in this newsgroup.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0694

3. “If the Nazis had gassed people to death that would have been a crime but that would still have been humane compared to what this country actually did and then watched on television on Sunday nights for years with Walter Cronkite providing commentary in the Twentieth Century and Air Power CBS TV series. No wonder that Silence of the Lambs was such a successful movie--America is a criminally insane society from top to bottom!”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0694

4. “Take down those crosses and menorahs from your alt ars and put up replicas of atomic bombs insteads because atomic bombs are what has saved this country so far from some of the consequences of its own criminal stupidity and viciousness. Without nuclear weapons you would all be praying for Adolf to come back and save your assess from Communism and the Jews.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0694

5. “Modern Germany is dominated by Jews; that is what the current hate laws in Germany and elsewhere really show. But, that is all ending and soon.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0694

6. “If I were descended from one of the lost tribes of Israel, I wouldn't talk about; I would keep it as deep a family secret as I possibly could. Anybody eager to be a member of a bunch of genocidal savages, which is precisely what the ancient Hebrews really were, should have his head examined.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0694

7. “The deliberate murder of civilians was begun by the British, aided and abetted with the full support including financing from the USA. The people responsible for such crimes shouldn't just be hung as war criminals, they should be burned alive. That's the punishment that Eisenhower, Bomber Harris, Churchill, and many others truly deserved. Compared to them, Adolf Hitler was and always will be a saint.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0694

8. “Nazi Germany, despite its faults, was still a far more civilized and livable society than this pigsty is ever likely to be. The few good things that can be send about America, freedom of speech is about it, do not make up for the fact that America has been the mortal enemy of civilization ever since the Civil War.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0694

9. “Mr Kaufman is obviously Jewish and a living example of why the Nazis tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration camps for the duration of the war.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0694

10. “Maybe some other engineer out there in cyberland will have the patience to teach this Jewish trash something about the real world. I have lost my patience.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0694

11. “The fact that most of these creatures are Jewish is no coincidence. The Holocaust hoax is an essential feature of modern Jewish identity just as the imagined persecutions of Jews by Pharoah and others was an essential feature to earlier Jewish generations. In other words, there is an enormous genetic component to the Holocaust hoax. It is essentially a Jewish hoax that has been carefully taylored to appeal to unsuspecting goyim.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0794

12. “I suggest you look at the handiwork of PIGS like you. Take a good look someday at pictures of real holocaust victims from the cities where millions of women and children were murdered, often by being roasted alive, by PIGS like you.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.9808

13. “If the Nazis had murdered millions of innocent people in gas chambers that certainly would have been a great and deplorable crime - but, it would still have been humane compared to what the Allies actually did during World War II. The US and Great Britain murdered millions of innocent people by quite literally roasting them to death. The Jewish involvement in those crimes, especially the nuclear bombing of Japan, are as deep as anyone's.”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... nt-of-berg

14. “Folks, we are dealing here with a Jew from the gutter and a congenital lying Jew. This ain't no high class Jew, not by light years, even if some institution of higher learning foolishly gave him a doctorate, which is incredible anyway. This guy is trash and that fits perfectly with his
avocation--holocaust hate-mongering. He deserves no pity when the reckoning finally comes.”
(From a Usenet discussion with Daniel Keren, as reported to me by the latter.)

15. “Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.”
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/10
Cheers,

Roberto

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