Fun with DIESEL GAS-VANS at Krasnodar and Kharkov...

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Ovidius
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F P Berg

#31

Post by Ovidius » 27 Mar 2002, 20:10

1. “Auschwitz was a nice place to spend the war--compared to many of the alternatives.”
For the guardsmen and Kapo guard helpers, yes. Instead of freezing alive in Russia, they could walk around through the mass of prisoners, choose who live and who dies, and have fun in various ways. :twisted:
2. “With all of the bleating about the dearly beloved and lost six million Jews, one may lose sight of the fact that real war crimes occurred during WW2 and that these real war crimes were at least partially inspired by Jewish hatemongers not unlike many of the hatemongers busily at work in this newsgroup.”
Do you claim that he lied and there were no Jewish hatemongers? :?
3. [blah blah] America is a criminally insane society from top to bottom!”
This may be true ... :evil:
4. “Take down those crosses and menorahs from your alt ars and put up replicas of atomic bombs insteads because atomic bombs are what has saved this country so far from some of the consequences of its own criminal stupidity and viciousness.
If read in reverse, it may have sense :P
5. “Modern Germany is dominated by Jews; that is what the current hate laws in Germany and elsewhere really show. But, that is all ending and soon.”
It won't end to soon, if ever. :cry:
6. “If I were descended from one of the lost tribes of Israel, I wouldn't talk about; I would keep it as deep a family secret as I possibly could. Anybody eager to be a member of a bunch of genocidal savages, which is precisely what the ancient Hebrews really were, should have his head examined.”
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Or he may be right? :?
7. “The deliberate murder of civilians was begun by the British, aided and abetted with the full support including financing from the USA. The people responsible for such crimes shouldn't just be hung as war criminals, they should be burned alive. That's the punishment that Eisenhower, Bomber Harris, Churchill, and many others truly deserved.
Strongly agree.
8. “Nazi Germany, despite its faults, was still a far more civilized and livable society than this pigsty is ever likely to be. The few good things that can be send about America, freedom of speech is about it, do not make up for the fact that America has been the mortal enemy of civilization ever since the Civil War.”
Some guys, like Caldric, will disagree :evil:
9. “Mr Kaufman is obviously Jewish and a living example of why the Nazis tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration camps for the duration of the war.”
A good answer to the question "Why?" 8O
10. “Maybe some other engineer out there in cyberland will have the patience to teach this Jewish trash something about the real world. I have lost my patience.
Too bad :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've lost mine also. :lol:

The rest later.

~Regards,

Ovidius

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Roberto
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#32

Post by Roberto » 27 Mar 2002, 21:58

Ovi,

That's what I like about you and Mr. Berg: You are both honest and outspoken about your views.

What makes me like you better than the "Hoaxbuster" is that you take National Socialism as it was, instead of engaging in imbecile whitewashing efforts condemned to failure in the face of the evidence. If Berg followed your example, I might even have some respect for the fellow.

Best,

Roberto

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Title: "The American Century"

Caption: "Isn't that the famous terror bomber who bombed Rome, Florence and the Monastery at Cassino?"

"Yes, but I think he's a cultural vandal — He recently sat on my best Swing record!"

From Das Schwarze Korps #13/1944, 30 March 1944.


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Scott Smith
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TECHNICAL Illiteracy...

#33

Post by Scott Smith » 28 Mar 2002, 03:48

Medo wrote:Smith will now tell us that the increase of the fuel supply had this effect only because the engine was under load and thus could not turn any faster.
No effect on the carbon monoxide output at all until the engine is maxed-out.

Here's a more detailed chart for you Roberto that shows the fuel-air ratio (multiplied by 500).

With the truck stopped (B-13) and the throttle depressed there is 17% oxygen in the exhaust and negligible CO.

Now, with the truck struggling up an ever-steeper hill, as shown by the load, lined in black, the CO doesn't increase until the engine power is maxed-out and can't be loaded any more.

Despite increasing the throttle to meet the load the speed stays at about 1400 rpm, the constant for these tests.

The throttle setting does not control the fuel-air ratio, which is also determined by engine speed and load.

Pretty obvious.

All those laden "murder vans" had to be struggling up perpetual hills for this murder scheme to work, as I have explained many times before. LOL.
:wink: :wink:

That's why it didn't happen.
Not even in Nazi Germany.
Not even to (insert your favorite Victim-group here).


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Scott Smith
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BOTTLED GAS...

#34

Post by Scott Smith » 28 Mar 2002, 11:51

THE TRIAL

in the case of the atrocities committed by the German fascist invaders and their accomplices in KRASNODAR and KRASNODAR Territory.


Heard,
July 14 to 17, 1943.


Translated from the report which appeared in Pravda, July 15-19, 1943.
Foreign Language Publishing House, Moscow: 1943, pp. 5-6.

One day Ivan Ivanovich Kotov, an inhabitant of the city of Krasnodar, who had been discharged from the hospital long ago, came for a certificate just at the time when the patients were being loaded into the van. One of the German officers who was supervising the loading caught sight of Kotov, seized him and pushed him into the "murder van." When the doors were closed and the van started off, Kotov, feeling that he was being asphyxiated, tore his shirt off his back and moistening it with his own urine put it into his mouth and nose [an old WWI trick with chlorine gas, the ammonia in the urine neutralizing the chlorine—Scott]. After a while he lost consciousness. When he came to he found himself in an anti-tank trench among dead bodies which had been haphazardly flung into the trench. He climbed out and returned home.

During the preliminary investigation Kotov deposed as follows:

“…A German who was standing near the car rushed at me shouting something I could not understand, seized me by the collar of my coat and pushed me into the van. When I got in I found a lot of people there. How many I cannot say. There were men and women. The van was packed. The people were standing pressed close against each other. The van was filled with groans, shrieks and wailing. The people were in a frenzy, for they had a presentiment that the German barbarians intended to subject them to frightful torture and death. After me another five persons were pushed into the van, after which the doors were slammed to and several minutes later it moved off. While it was in motion I felt that I was beginning to choke. I tore my shirt from my back, moistened it with my urine and put it over my mouth and nose. At once I felt some relief.”


(Emphasis mine.)
So, there you have it! The Germans used neither carbon monoxide nor carbon dioxide but bottled chlorine gas. LOL.
:D

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Scott Smith
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MEDORJURGEN QUOTH...

#35

Post by Scott Smith » 28 Mar 2002, 13:32

Roberto wrote:I will thus in the future pick my FPB quotes from the selection hereafter. Constructive additions or other suggestions are welcome.
With the exception of the quote supplied by Dr. Keren, who surely wouldn't lie about a thing like that, and the one from Codoh, which I can vouch for, all your quotes are hearsay coming from Nizkor!

Hearsay requires a certain amount of FAITH, Roberto.

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Roberto
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Re: MEDORJURGEN QUOTH...

#36

Post by Roberto » 28 Mar 2002, 14:51

++Medo wrote:
Smith will now tell us that the increase of the fuel supply had this effect only because the engine was under load and thus could not turn any faster.++

The Reverend keeps trying, as I predicted:

<<No effect on the carbon monoxide output at all until the engine is maxed-out.>>

Baloney.

<<Here's a more detailed chart for you Roberto that shows the fuel-air ratio (multiplied by 500).>>

Even if multiplied by 1500, the chart would not become any more convincing. It shows nothing other than the various experiments and the exhaust composition in each of them. How that exhaust composition is dependent on the fuel-air ratio is not shown. Neither do we see the fuel input:

Experiment #; Power (load hp); Rpm; Fuel; volume gas; Fuel-Air ratio; CO2%; O2%; CO%; NOx (ppm); H2%:

B13; 00.0hp; 1400rpm; 04.56lbs/hr; 4500cf/hr; 0.013 (77:1); 02.7%; 17.14%; 0.041% (410ppm); 167ppm; 0.0%

B14; 08.8hp; 1410rpm; 06.89lbs/hr; 4460cf/hr; 0.020 (50:1); 04.2%; 15.13%; 0.028% (280ppm); 267ppm; 0.0%

B15; 17.5hp; 1400rpm; 09.56lbs/hr; 4180cf/hr; 0.029 (35:1); 06.2%; 12.20%; 0.024% (240ppm); 378ppm; 0.0%

B16; 24.6hp; 1410rpm; 12.45lbs/hr; 4050cf/hr; 0.039 (26:1); 08.4%; 09.26%; 0.027% (270ppm); 448ppm; 0.0%

B12; 37.8hp; 1400rpm; 18.12lbs/hr; 3950cf/hr; 0.056 (18:1); 12.4%; 03.44%; 0.058% (580ppm); 364ppm; 0.0%

B70; 40.2hp; 1400rpm; 21.29lbs/hr; 3700cf/hr; 0.070 (14:1); 13.8%; 00.80%; 0.700% (07kppm); 346ppm; 0.1%

B72; 41.0hp; 1400rpm; 24.41lbs/hr; 3650cf/hr; 0.084 (12:1); 12.1%; 00.30%; 3.500% (35kppm); 277ppm; 1.3%

B69; 40.6hp; 1400rpm; 29.63lbs/hr; 4050cf/hr; 0.094 (11:1); 10.2%; 00.30%; 6.000% (60kppm); 186ppm; 0.4%


Smith obviously takes our audience for a bunch of gullible idiots who will be impressed by a nice multi-colored chart.

<<With the truck stopped (B-13) and the throttle depressed there is 17% oxygen in the exhaust and negligible CO.>>

The fuel supply in B-13 was 4.56 lbs/hr. What would the oxygen content have been if the fuel supply had been 29.63 lbs/hr as in B69, 6.5 times higher? The engine would have turned faster, for sure, but unless it turned so much faster as to take in 6.5 times more air, which I strongly doubt, the fuel-air ratio would go up and the oxygen content of the exhaust would go down.

<<Now, with the truck struggling up an ever-steeper hill, as shown by the load, lined in black, the CO doesn't increase until the engine power is maxed-out and can't be loaded any more.>>

Sure, that’s why the CO content and oxygen concentration in the experiments between B13 and B12 remain exactly the same, right?

<<Despite increasing the throttle to meet the load the speed stays at about 1400 rpm, the constant for these tests.>>

Certainly so, but that doesn’t tell us anything about what things would be like if the throttle were opened without the engine being under load, does it?

<<The throttle setting does not control the fuel-air ratio, which is also determined by engine speed and load.

While I agree that it is easier to enhance the toxicity of an engine under load than that of an engine not under load by increasing the fuel supply, I see no evidence that the exhaust of an engine could not be made toxic enough by simply opening up the throttle, independently of there being a load. Or by restricting the air intake. Or by doing both. The fuel-air ratio is the decisive factor, according to Holtz & Elliot, and what brought it up in experiments B-70, B-72 and B-69 was the increase of the fuel supply:
Previous studies (2,3,4,5) of the exhaust from internal-combustion engines have shown that the composition of these gases is chiefly a function of air-fuel ratio.

[...]

Although Fig. 2 presents data on exhaust-gas composition at fuel-air ratios on the rich side, such conditions of operation are not normal and were obtained in these tests by changing the adjustment on the stop limiting the travel of the rack on the fuel pump of engine B. After this change the fuel injected at full throttle was increased by approximately 60 per cent. When the engines were operated in their normal range the fuel-air ratio never exceeded 0.042 and 0.058 lb per lb for engines A and B, respectively.
Emphasis is mine.

<<Pretty obvious.>>

The only thing obvious is that Smith is desperately trying to sell an ever more transparent herring.

<<All those laden "murder vans" had to be struggling up perpetual hills for this murder scheme to work, as I have explained many times before. LOL.>>

Assuming that gas vans had diesel engines at all (those at Chelmno extermination camp had gasoline engines, according to the depositions of Walter Burmeister and Walter Piller quoted on pages 114 and 141 of Kogon/Langbein/Rückerl et al, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, and of the vans used by the Einsatzgruppen in the Soviet Union only the bigger Saurer vans may have had diesel engines), the stuff about the struggling vans is just plain nonsense. Here’s what a professional colleague once told Berg on the Usenet:
Article 14309 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet From: [email protected] Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Diesel A, B, C's and Scott Mullins Date: Mon, 25 Jul 94 23:24:56 -0500 Organization: Delphi ([email protected] email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <2vt3du$[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1f.delphi.com X-To: Friedrich Berg

Friedrich Berg writes: >engine, Diesel engine and even the automobile. I can't really believe >that Mullins can be that stupid--but, then again, perhaps he is?

I dont believe any useful purpose is served by calling people names. Why cannot you keep this discussion at a professional level? If you are an engineer that should not be too difficult. I also happen to be a mechanical engineer with probably more years experience that many of you have. I see nothing technically wrong in accepting that a diesel engine exhausting into a closed room provided with an exhauster would fill the room with a lethal gas. The percentage of CO is not only a function of load but also of the air/fuel ratio. It is quite possible to run a diesel engine "rich" at part-load as well as at full-load. It won't be efficient but it would produce higher percentages of CO. Apart from all of this people forced into a closed chamber filled with exhaust gases would not only die from CO but would also be asphyxiated. And finally, the argument about gas producers being a better source of CO is technically correct but not practical because gas producers are basically custom-built and certainly not as readily available during the war at a camp near the war zones than diesel engines.

Let's try to cut out the emotions and keep this at a dispassionate technical level.


Source of quote:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0794

Another confirmation that I’m right. What did the “Hoaxbuster” say to this? Did he go mute?

<<So, there you have it! The Germans used neither carbon monoxide nor carbon dioxide but bottled chlorine gas. LOL.>>

The contention seems to be based on nothing other than Smith’s assumption that putting a piece of cloth moistened with urine over nose and mouth was “an old WWI trick with chlorine gas, the ammonia in the urine neutralizing the chlorine”. Can Smith demonstrate that this trick didn’t work against carbon monoxide poisoning as well? And even if he can, what will he have shown? That Kotov was not a credible witness, period. Big deal, considering that there are enough perpetrators’ depositions and incriminating documents around to make the True Believer stop laughing. Here are extracts from some of them:
The use of the gas vans was the most horrible thing I have ever seen. I saw people being led into the gas vans and the doors closed. Then the van drove off. I had to drive Blobel to the place where the gas van was unloaded. The back doors of the van were opened, and the bodies that had not fallen out when the doors were opened were unloaded by Jews who were still alive. The bodies were covered with vomit and excrement. It was a terrible sight. Blobel looked, then looked away, and we drove off. On such occasions Blobel always drank schnapps, sometimes even in the car.
Testimony of gas van driver Julius Bauer

Source of quote:
http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/bauer.html
The gas van was deployed for the first time in Kiev. My job was just to drive the vehicle. The van was loaded by the local staff. About forty people were loaded inside. There were men women and children. I was supposed to tell the people they were going to be put to work. The people were pushed up a short ladder and into the van. The van door was then bolted shut, and the hose was attached. It was already in place - I did that, it was cold at the time. I drove through the town to the antitank ditches. The bodies were thrown into the antitank ditches. I am sure that it was in Kiev; I myself took part in this operation.
Testimony of gas van driver Wilhelm Findeisen

Source of quote:

http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/findeisen.html
Greater protection is needed for the lighting system. The grill should cover the lamps high enough up to make it impossible to break the bulbs. It seems that these lamps are hardly ever turned on, so the users have suggested that they could be done away with. Experience shows, however, that when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door. The reason for this is that when it becomes dark inside the load rushes toward what little light remains. This hampers the locking of the door. It has also been noticed that the noise provoked by the locking of the door is linked to the fear aroused by the darkness. It is therefore expedient to keep the lights on before the operation and during the first few minutes of its duration. Lighting is also useful for night work and for cleaning of the interior of the van.
From Just’s letter to Rauff of 5 June 1942.

Source of quote:

http://www.pgonline.com/electriczen/doc ... auff1.html

<<With the exception of the quote supplied by Dr. Keren, who surely wouldn't lie about a thing like that, and the one from Codoh, which I can vouch for, all your quotes are hearsay coming from Nizkor!>>

Now that’s hilarious. Smith is contending that Nizkor invented statements as Bergian as this one:
From: [email protected] (Friedrich Berg) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Real War Criminals Date: 23 Jun 1994 12:08:33 -0400 Organization: International Internet Association. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <2ucc21$[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: mary.iia.org Summary: The worst war criminals Keywords: WW2 With all of the bleating about the dearly beloved and lost six million Jews, one may lose sight of the fact that real war crimes occurred during WW2 and that these real war crimes were at least partially inspired by Jewish hatemongers not unlike many of the hatemongers busily at work in this newsgroup. The Jewish Holocaust is a hoax as anyone who examines the subject seriously quickly recognizes, but even if the Jewish Holocaust were true in every fantastic detail, the war crimes committed by the United States were far worse. The US of A turned entire cities into crematory ovens. The bombing of civilian targets was a monstrous crime the likes of which has never occurred in the history of the world. The atrocities of Genghis Khan or Attila or anyone else that one can think of pale by comparison. The vast majority of America's atrocious bombing occurred when there was absolutely no danger to the US at all. In the case of Japan, America's bombing campaign became more atrocious as Japan became ever more willing to surrender. They were unwilling to accept unconditional surrender until the very end but they had been trying to surrender as early as January of 1945--and yet the good old USA began to roast the Japs with its raid on Tokyo in February and continued this policy until the atomic bombs were dropped. If the Nazis had gassed people to death that would have been a crime but that would still have been humane compared to what this country actually did and then watched on television on Sunday nights for years with Walter Cronkite providing commentary in the Twentieth Century and Air Power CBS TV series. No wonder that Silence of the Lambs was such a successful movie--America is a criminally insane society from top to bottom! Some of the participants in this newsgroup seem to be religious. I suggest that you pray real hard that there is no God because if there is a God, and if he is anything like the thing you imagine--that is to say a God who punishes criminals--then this country is in big trouble. America is in trouble anyway; looking at New York and every major city as it becomes another Slumopolis one should wonder if he isn't there helping things along. Take down those crosses and menorahs from your alt ars and put up replicas of atomic bombs insteads because atomic bombs are what has saved this country so far from some of the consequences of its own criminal stupidity and viciousness. Without nuclear weapons you would all be praying for Adolf to come back and save your assess from Communism and the Jews. FPBERG
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.0694

or this one:
From [email protected] Sun Aug 23 12:34:08 EDT 1998 Article: 199701 of alt.revisionism Path: trends.ca!hub.org!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: [email protected] (Dieselzykl) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: My Holocaust Experiences - by Charles V. Ferree Lines: 29 Message-ID: <[email protected]> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: [email protected] Date: 22 Aug 1998 19:34:53 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <[email protected]> Xref: trends.ca alt.revisionism:199701 Dear Ferree, I suggest you look at the handiwork of PIGS like you. Take a good look someday at pictures of real holocaust victims from the cities where millions of women and children were murdered, often by being roasted alive, by PIGS like you. And yet PIGS like you have the nerve, chutzpah is the better word, to complain about scenes of victims who died as an indirect result only of PIGS like you. None of those scenes of masses of dead at Dachau or Buchenwald would have occurred if the Nazis could have prevented it. Those scenes did not occur before 1945 and not until PIGS like you strafed everything that moved on the ground. Many of those dead in the train at Dachau were from fifty calibre machine gun fire. That was standard American aircraft ammunition calibre. Dr Larson established that. Those deaths were only from PIGS like you. Go to HELL where PIGS like you truly belong. FPBerg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... /berg.9808

True Believer imbecility stops at nothing, for sure. I strongly doubt that Smith can provide a shred of evidence that Nizkor falsified Berg’s statements, but he’s welcome to try. These statements are just what I would have expected from a “Revisionist” Minister of Science who exhorts his flock to:
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10

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:aliengray :aliengray :aliengray :aliengray :aliengray :aliengray :aliengray :aliengray :aliengray :aliengray

Boy, the Reverend sure hates me. Which I can understand, considering how I keep whipping him every time he holds one of his beaten sermons. :lol:

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Scott Smith
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MORE FUN with diesel vans...

#37

Post by Scott Smith » 28 Mar 2002, 16:31

Roberto wrote:The fuel supply in B-13 was 4.56 lbs/hr. What would the oxygen content have been if the fuel supply had been 29.63 lbs/hr as in B69, 6.5 times higher? The engine would have turned faster, for sure, but unless it turned so much faster as to take in 6.5 times more air, which I strongly doubt, the fuel-air ratio would go up and the oxygen content of the exhaust would go down.
There are limits as to how fast the motor can turn. In that case, without a load, if the engine were really using the same amount of fuel as in test B-69 it would probably be blowing a lot of it, unburned, right out of the exhaust with possible misfires. But without any data it is hard to say. Once the engine can't turn any faster it is likely that the CO would start to rise, as if it were loaded, and then it throws a rod. Kaput. Not a chance!
++Now, with the truck struggling up an ever-steeper hill, as shown by the load, lined in black, the CO doesn't increase until the engine power is maxed-out and can't be loaded any more.++

<<Sure, that’s why the CO content and oxygen concentration in the experiments between B13 and B12 remain exactly the same, right? >>
The oxygen goes down and the CO2 (waste gas) increases as the load increases because more work is being done.

From Test B-12 onward, and despite the fuel-supply being increased more, little additional work can be done and the CO levels begin to rise as the engine cannot turn any faster, thus starving for oxygen.

Blocking off the air-intake, btw, not only blocks oxygen but also inert nitrogen, which is needed to compress for ignition. You could inject nitrogen gas or CO2 instead of nitrogen/oxygen but that is incredibly elaborate and the black smoke associated with the tests above B-12 significantly reduce engine life.

Also, the mechanical stresses involved in the tests above B-12 are a factor. In the real world, the engine would be run between B-14 and B-16 for 80% of its service life. Even running at B-13 (normal speed but no-load) will shorten engine-life some, which is why a diesel pump or generator should always be loaded if it is expected to last awhile.
I strongly doubt that Smith can provide a shred of evidence that Nizkor falsified Berg’s statements, but he’s welcome to try.
You are supplying the quotes, so I would say it is incumbent upon you to prove their authenticity and that they are not taken out of context. As I said, the one about "keeping the faith" is genuine. The boys from the 1st SS Panzer Korps accused of gassing Russian (or, according to the Brandeis film, Jewish) mental patients really were the good guys, at least in this instance.
Boy, the Reverend sure hates me.
Don't ever think that! At the very least, as Walter says, "you add leaven to the loaf."

Keeping the Faith: The 1st SS Pz Korps, in righteous action against Godless Communism...
(I'm an atheist so I can say that, he he he.)
:evil:

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Last edited by Scott Smith on 28 Mar 2002, 18:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Roberto
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#38

Post by Roberto » 28 Mar 2002, 18:08

++The fuel supply in B-13 was 4.56 lbs/hr. What would the oxygen content have been if the fuel supply had been 29.63 lbs/hr as in B69, 6.5 times higher? The engine would have turned faster, for sure, but unless it turned so much faster as to take in 6.5 times more air, which I strongly doubt, the fuel-air ratio would go up and the oxygen content of the exhaust would go down.++

<<There are limits as to how fast the motor can turn. In that case, without a load, if the engine were really using the same amount of fuel as in test B-69 it would probably be blowing a lot of it, unburned, right out of the exhaust with possible misfires. But without any data it is hard to say. Once the engine can't turn any faster it is likely that the CO would start to rise, as if it were loaded, and then it throws a rod. Kaput. Not a chance!>>

Same old soap. Probably this, possibly that, with no facts and figures to support Smith’s contentions. Even if the engine were to turn twice as fast with a fuel input of 29.63 lbs/hour, the fuel-air ratio would still be three times as high as in B-13 – as high as in experiment B-16, where the oxygen content was already dangerously close to the minimum (8 %) required to sustain human life under favorable conditions. How long the engine would stand running under such conditions I don’t know, but that issue would only be a concern to the gassers if the engine ran the risk of going bust within less than 30-45 minutes.

--Now, with the truck struggling up an ever-steeper hill, as shown by the load, lined in black, the CO doesn't increase until the engine power is maxed-out and can't be loaded any more.--

++Sure, that’s why the CO content and oxygen concentration in the experiments between B13 and B12 remain exactly the same, right? ++

<<The oxygen goes down and the CO2 (waste gas) increases as the load increases because more work is being done.>>

No, the fact that work is being done doesn’t allow the engine to turn faster and thus take in more air as more fuel is put in, which is why the fuel-air ratio goes up, leading to more CO2 and CO and less oxygen in the exhaust.

<<From Test B-12 onward, and despite the fuel-supply being increased more, little additional work can be done and the CO levels begin to rise as the engine cannot turn any faster, thus starving for oxygen.>>

At test B-12, the oxygen content was already at a lethal low of 3.44 %. The CO levels in the subsequent experiments eventually reached 10 to 12 times the concentration lethal for human beings, but that is hardly relevant as too little oxygen in the exhaust alone would lead to death by suffocation once the exhaust had replaced the existing atmosphere with itself. But to achieve this no B-12 was needed. B-13 with 29.63 lbs/hr of fuel and eventually a little restriction of the air intake, or a somewhat greater restriction of the air intake and somewhat less fuel, would do the job nicely.

<<Blocking off the air-intake, btw, not only blocks oxygen but also inert nitrogen, which is needed to compress for ignition. You could inject nitrogen gas or CO2 instead of nitrogen/oxygen but that is incredibly elaborate and the black smoke associated with the tests above B-12 significantly reduce engine life.>>

To what extent engine life would be reduced would depend on the extent of the restriction and the time during which the engine was run under such conditions. Running the engine in this manner for no more than 30-45 minutes at a time might not have a significant damaging effect. What is more, the restriction of the air intake could be matched with the increase of the fuel supply in such a way as to avoid or minimize the risk of engine damage. But even if a reduction of engine life could not be avoided, this would not be much of a concern for the gassers. Diesel engines salvaged from Soviet tanks for applications such as power production don’t seem to have been in short supply.

<<Also, the mechanical stresses involved in the tests above B-12 are a factor. In the real world, the engine would be run between B-14 and B-16 for 80% of its service life. Even running at B-13 (normal speed but no-load) will shorten engine-life some, which is why a diesel pump or generator should always be loaded if it is expected to last awhile.>>

Big deal. If engine goes bust, go get another. Even with a considerable restriction of the air intake, they wouldn’t have busted one every week or even every month, would they?

Quote:
++I strongly doubt that Smith can provide a shred of evidence that Nizkor falsified Berg’s statements, but he’s welcome to try.++

<<You are supplying the quotes, so I would say it is incumbent upon you to prove their authenticity and that they are not taken out of context.>>

That’s how Smith would like it to be: I provide a quote from a reliable source that has an interest in accurately recording the illustrative statements of a given person, and all he has to do is yell “forgery” to saddle me with the burden of proving the authenticity of the statements in question. Infantile reasoning is what I call that. Grow up, kiddy, the burden of proof is on you.

As to the context of Berg’s statements, it is transcribed under the links I provided, which contain the entire Usenet message in every case. Smith is invited to demonstrate that the context would give the quoted passages another meaning than the one they all too obviously have.

<<As I said, the one about "keeping the faith" is genuine.>>

So are the others, unless Smith can prove otherwise. A sworn affidavit by Mr. Berg that he never made the statements in question I will consider sufficient to reverse the burden of proof. If Berg has no problems with providing that, then why did he never take Nizkor to task for perjury? Why doesn’t he even show up on this forum to tell us himself that the quotes of his statements on the Nizkor site were fabricated? If Smith shouldn’t yet have extended an invitation in this sense to the old quack, he is hereby again requested to do so.

<<The boys from the 1st SS Panzer Korps accused of gassing Russian (or, according to the Brandeis film, Jewish) mental patients really were the good guys, at least in this instance.>>

Why the boys from the 1st SS Panzer Korps? The killing in gas vans was the work of special detachments of the security and order police, not of frontline troops. Another of Smith’s lies, or just some “comic relief”?

++Boy, the Reverend sure hates me.++

<<Don't ever think that! At the very least, as Walter says, "you add leaven to the loaf.">>

Come on Smith, be honest for once. Your rage is palpable.

<<Keeping the Faith: The 1st SS Pz Korps, in righteous action against Godless Communism...
I'm an atheist so I can say that, he he he.)>>

Except for the “Godless”, I have no doubt that Smith subscribes every word of the above statement with true conviction. Never mind that the “good guys” started the whole thing, that they fell upon the Soviet Union with the intention of destroying it and exterminating or enslaving its inhabitants. After all, they were only killing sub-human creatures who didn’t deserve to live, weren’t they?

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TOTO, WERE NOT IN KRASNODAR ANYMORE...

#39

Post by Scott Smith » 28 Mar 2002, 18:34

Roberto wrote:Why the boys from the 1st SS Panzer Korps? The killing in gas vans was the work of special detachments of the security and order police, not of frontline troops. Another of Smith’s lies, or just some “comic relief”?
That's because I haven't posted the stuff on the Kharkov trials yet. And I haven't posted anything on the supposed Soviet medicolegal report on carbon monoxide yet either. Trials and legalistic gobbledeygook is boring. That's why I try to take it in small doses.
Possibly this, possibly that.
No, my graphs accurately show what is happening. The Holtz and Elliott (1941) table for Engine B on page 99 you refer to clearly shows the LOAD and the relationships to the gas generated. That is why I use it the most and even made charts. Of course, it would be nice to have some actual dynamometer data on the 6-cylinder Saurer diesels and the Soviet W-2 tank engine itself...
:?: :?:
Come on Smith, be honest for once. Your rage is palpable.
I hope you don't really believe that, Roberto. I am wounded. Truly hurt.
:mrgreen:

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#40

Post by Roberto » 28 Mar 2002, 18:52

++Why the boys from the 1st SS Panzer Korps? The killing in gas vans was the work of special detachments of the security and order police, not of frontline troops. Another of Smith’s lies, or just some “comic relief”?++

<<That's because I haven't posted the stuff on the Kharkov trials yet.>>

Not that I expect it to tell us anything important, but let’s see that “stuff”.

<<And I haven't posted anything on the supposed Soviet medicolegal report on carbon monoxide yet either. Trials and legalistic gobbledeygook is boring. That's why I try to take it in small doses.>>

My guess is that Smith either has nothing to show or is aware that what he’s got might just as well work against his nonsense, to the extent that it is relevant at all. But I’m open to surprises …

<<No, my graphs accurately show what is happening.>>

Smith’s funny graphs show nothing but the numbers of the various experiments and the relative levels of the various components of the exhaust. Don’t take our readers for a bunch of fools, Reverend.

<<The Holtz and Elliott (1941) table for Engine B on page 99 you refer to clearly shows the LOAD and the relationships to the gas generated.>>

It also shows that the fuel supply is an important factor. Holtz & Elliot’s quoted statement even suggest that it’s the key factor.

<<That is why I use it the most and even made charts.>>

Always conveniently omitting the fuel supply issue, of course.

<<Of course, it would be nice to have some actual dynamometer data on the 6-cylinder Saurer diesels and the Soviet W-2 tank engine itself...>>

It would be even more interesting if Holtz & Elliot had done experiments increasing the fuel supply and/or restricting the air intake (the method applied by Pattle & Stretch). The “only under load” – stance could probably be buried if we had the results of such experiments. Even without them, however, it is everything other than convincing.

++Come on Smith, be honest for once. Your rage is palpable.++

<<I hope you don't really believe that, Roberto. I am wounded. Truly hurt.>>

I don’t believe, I observe and think. Believing I leave to the sleepless Reverend.

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(SINKING BATTLE)SHIP OF FOOLS...

#41

Post by Scott Smith » 28 Mar 2002, 19:35

Roberto wrote:++The Holtz and Elliott (1941) table for Engine B on page 99 you refer to clearly shows the LOAD and the relationships to the gas generated.++

<<It also shows that the fuel supply is an important factor. Holtz & Elliot’s quoted statement even suggest that it’s the key factor.>>
Their objectives were a little different than ours. They wanted to see how safe diesel engines were in mines, something the Germans already knew. And they determined that an engine with the fuel-stop limited couldn't generate too much CO. But, of course, for that to happen in the first place also requires a heavy load to work against. It is easier to limit the fuel supply with a simple stop than to limit the load somehow.
++That is why I use it [Holtz table] the most and even made charts.++

<<Always conveniently omitting the fuel supply issue, of course.>>
That's because the LOAD is crucial and it can't just be "tweaked" by some ditzy mechanics with savage whipmarks inscribed on their faces. Even at Test B-12, which has very little CO but too little oxygen to breathe, we still have a FULL-LOAD on the motor! Surely not with the Gas-Van sitting in the compound somewhere, with some Muzhic pushing on the accelerator pedal, or an electric generator at Belzec or Treblinka without a dummy-load to insure results.
++Of course, it would be nice to have some actual dynamometer data on the 6-cylinder Saurer diesels and the Soviet W-2 tank engine itself...++

<<It would be even more interesting if Holtz & Elliot had done experiments increasing the fuel supply and/or restricting the air intake (the method applied by Pattle & Stretch). The “only under load” – stance could probably be buried if we had the results of such experiments. Even without them, however, it is everything other than convincing.>>
So, now the LOAD has no bearing at all? Wishful thinking, Roberto! Don't dig yourself in any deeper. Everybody else is trying to drop the Diesel Murder-Van canard, but we just can't get ourselves out of that corner until the paint dries, can we? The Soviet Diesel-Murder trials are an uncomfortable little fly-in-the-ointment, huh? Especially since Nuremberg built upon them.

Lies upon lies. Old lies. Cold lies. Lies wrapped in lies; served-up lies, warmed-up lies. Lies, lies, everywhere! And where they go, who really ever cares?
:wink:

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#42

Post by Roberto » 28 Mar 2002, 20:19

--The Holtz and Elliott (1941) table for Engine B on page 99 you refer to clearly shows the LOAD and the relationships to the gas generated.--

++It also shows that the fuel supply is an important factor. Holtz & Elliot’s quoted statement even suggest that it’s the key factor.++

<<Their objectives were a little different than ours. They wanted to see how safe diesel engines were in mines, something the Germans already knew. And they determined that an engine with the fuel-stop limited couldn't generate too much CO..>>

The Reverend is telling us nothing new.

<<But, of course, for that to happen in the first place also requires a heavy load to work against.>>

That’s how the Reverend would like it to be. But with the composition of the exhaust being a function of the fuel-air ratio and that in turn being a function of the fuel supply on the one hand and the air intake on the other, there’s no reason why it should be so.

<<It is easier to limit the fuel supply with a simple stop than to limit the load somehow.>>

It’s also easier to increase the fuel supply than to increase the load. And probably just as effective for certain purposes, especially if combined with a restriction of the air intake.

--That is why I use it [Holtz table] the most and even made charts.--

++Always conveniently omitting the fuel supply issue, of course.++

<<That's because the LOAD is crucial and it can't just be "tweaked" by some ditzy mechanics with savage whipmarks inscribed on their faces.>>

However often Smith repeats that, there’s no indication that the effect of loading can’t be achieved just as well by increasing the fuel supply and/or restricting the air intake. As Holtz & Elliot observed, the composition of the exhaust is chiefly a function of the air-fuel ratio, which in turn is a function of the fuel supply on the one hand and the air intake on the other. Quite simple, really.

<<Even at Test B-12, which has very little CO but too little oxygen to breathe, we still have a FULL-LOAD on the motor!>>

By Smith’s definition thereof, maybe. But I don’t see why the same effect could not be achieved through a considerable increase of the fuel supply and/or a restriction of the air intake. How much CO, CO2 and oxygen there is in the exhaust depends on how much air there is to burn the fuel, doesn’t it?

<<Surely not with the Gas-Van sitting in the compound somewhere, with some Muzhic pushing on the accelerator pedal, or an electric generator at Belzec or Treblinka without a dummy-load to insure results.>>

Why not, Reverend? If the exhaust composition is chiefly a function of the fuel-air ratio, it makes all the sense in the world that a considerable increase of the fuel supply, combined or not with a restriction of the air intake, could achieve the same effect as your good old “dummy load”.

--Of course, it would be nice to have some actual dynamometer data on the 6-cylinder Saurer diesels and the Soviet W-2 tank engine itself.--

++It would be even more interesting if Holtz & Elliot had done experiments increasing the fuel supply and/or restricting the air intake (the method applied by Pattle & Stretch). The “only under load” – stance could probably be buried if we had the results of such experiments. Even without them, however, it is everything other than convincing.++

<<So, now the LOAD has no bearing at all?>>

Exactly, my friend.

<<Wishful thinking, Roberto!>>

No, just plain empirical observation and a little logic. Wishful thinking I leave to the Reverend.

<<Don't dig yourself in any deeper.>>

That’s what I’m telling you, buddy.

<<Everybody else is trying to drop the Diesel Murder-Van canard, but we just can't get ourselves out of that corner until the paint dries, can we?>>

Cut out the crap, it doesn’t convince. There was never such a thing as a “Diesel Murder-Van canard”, because except for Mr. Berg, the Reverend and a few other True Believers, nobody ever gave a damn about whether the gas vans had diesel engines or – as is more likely considering the evidence – gasoline engines. Not even the Soviets, whom Smith desperately invokes in order to be able to show a “diesel hoax” – they accorded that irrelevant minor detail no more than a perfunctory mention.

<<The Soviet Diesel-Murder trials are an uncomfortable little fly-in-the-ointment, huh?>>

No, they are the Reverend’s last straw. And a rather thin one, given that the best he can hope to demonstrate is that the Soviet courts were mistaken in regard to an irrelevant minor detail and that the gas van engines must have been gasoline engines.

<<Especially since Nuremberg built upon them.>>

Really? Show us, Reverend. I thought that the IMT had interrogated good old Ohlendorf and/or used Becker’s letter to Rauff (the one that Smith keeps calling a “forgery” although he cannot demonstrate what’s wrong with it and although Rauff expressly confirmed its authenticity before the German embassy in Santiago de Chile in 1972, remember?) as documentary evidence to the gas van killings.

<<Lies upon lies. Old lies. Cold lies. Lies wrapped in lies; served-up lies, warmed-up lies. Lies, lies, everywhere! And where they go, who really ever cares?>>

Reverend Smith just brilliantly summed up what his stance has amounted to since he started posting on this forum. Einsicht ist der erste Schritt zur Besserung, as the Germans say. Acknowledging one’s fallacies is the first step towards improvement.

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WISHES and FISHES and Murder-Vans...

#43

Post by Scott Smith » 28 Mar 2002, 23:13

Medorjurgen wrote:<<It would be even more interesting if Holtz & Elliot had done experiments increasing the fuel supply and/or restricting the air intake (the method applied by Pattle & Stretch). The “only under load” – stance could probably be buried if we had the results of such experiments. Even without them, however, it is everything other than convincing.>>

++So, now the LOAD has no bearing at all? ++

<<Exactly, my friend.>>

++Wishful thinking, Roberto! ++

<<No, just plain empirical observation and a little logic. Wishful thinking I leave to the Reverend.>>
Hah! What empirical observation? The data speaks for itself.
:wink:

I think of the two of us, if we were both asked to build a death-machine by our ever-so-enlightened governments, then you'd better let me engineer it.
8O

But you can handle the prefatory show-trials!
:wink:

Maybe we'd better do a poll on the forum to see which of us, in the opinion of the members, could build a better Murder-Van...
:twisted:

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#44

Post by Roberto » 31 Mar 2002, 17:34

<<Hah! What empirical observation? The data speaks for itself.>>

Indeed they do. They just don’t tell us what Smith would like them to.

<<I think of the two of us, if we were both asked to build a death-machine by our ever-so-enlightened governments, then you'd better let me engineer it.>>

Oh, but I’m a technician, says the Reverend. Maybe so, but what the heck? The “Revisionist” Minister of Science is also the Keeper of the Faith, who you can expect to twist even the laws of nature if it fits his ideological bias and if he counts on finding readers ignorant and gullible enough to buy his herrings.

<<But you can handle the prefatory show-trials!>>

I know of no such. I know of murder trials before independent West German courts which resulted in findings of fact that are in no way affected by the Reverend’s haggling about what would be inaccuracies in regard to irrelevant minor details at worst.

<<Maybe we'd better do a poll on the forum to see which of us, in the opinion of the members, could build a better Murder-Van...>>

Feel free to do so. Readers are requested right away to cast their votes with Reverend Smith. It makes him happy.

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#45

Post by Rob S. » 31 Mar 2002, 17:56

What if the T-34 engines were running on Russian Vodka? 8O

I think you guys should spend your Easter holidays with your families instead of arguing about diesel engines. I know that I'm a complete hypocrite but I really have no family to spend it with.

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