Dirlewanger & Warsaw - again

[Fredd]

AK soldier wore German uniforms (masking blouses), and above all, German helmets.

Gee, isn't that exactly what Skorzeny's men were executed for several months later during the Battle of the Bulge?

You mixed up two things: Skorzeny's men wear enemy uniforms to deceive the enemy. Polish insurgents had distinct armbadges (white and red colors) and on helmets they painted distinct red and white marks. Besides armed forces can use anemy weapon or equipment. What is difference between using a captured helmet and using a captured tank?

Cheers

[Epaminondas55]

I guess my "beef" with what it seems the nation of Poland here (seems to be the only people perpetuating this thread) is that you say "the Germans" did this, or that and that simply is not the case here.

I have to remind you folks yet again that the entire nation of Germany did not commit these crimes. Yes some of the policies of NS Germany were quite evil and ultimately caused the deaths of (directly or indirectly) approx. 60 million people.

1. I am not Polish by nationality or ethnicity. Still I have nothing but admiration for the heroism of Warsaw Poles involved in the uprising. I don't see how anyone coming from a neutral position could study the uprising and not admire Polish heroism.

2. The above post seems to say that Germans as a nationality are being slandered - yet I have seen nothing on this thread that strikes me as unfair to Germans.

3. Were I interested in "defending" German honor, or trying to make a case for the natural humanity and goodness of Germans as a group, my best witness would be ...... Schenk! He is under no pressure or compulsion to speak out about his war experience yet he does so at length. He describes horrific atrocities in detail with no excuses or justifications. I could not blame him if he also spoke of the bombing of German civilians or of the fact that other armies committed atrocities - but I admire him all the more for not doing so.

"Not every member of the Wehrmacht/SS was a bloodthirsty murder, sorry to let the air out of your sail on that but it is a fact."

4. If this is the point the best witness is still Schenk. He is obviously not a bloodthirsty murderer, rather he is a boy drafted into a nightmare. Clearly he would rather be going to school and church rather than trapped as canon fodder on the front lines of a world war.

[Uninen]

I just found this.. as counter ballance for the initial post, i find this "story" bit more belivable.. be that as it may that it tells basicly the same story.. without too much "coloring" thank god.

http://stosstruppen39-45.tripod.com/id6.html

and doesnt leave reader thinking that poles were all nice and fair..

This battle also gave the Ukrainians troops ideal outlet for their ingrained anti-Polish feelings. This caused the Poles to lump together as "Ukrainians" all the combattants from the east. As a result if any of the latter had the misfortune to be taken prisoner by the Poles, they were all shot, either immediately on capture or after they had a 'U' (for 'Ukrainian') painted on their naked backs and been sent to erect barricades under fire from both sides. Thus the soldiers from the East could do no right. They were hated by one side and neither their reliability nor their fighting ability were trusted by the other.

[szopen]

The site quoted claims that German losses were only 2.000. Until now, the LOWEST German losses number i saw was 10.000 and 17.000 at most. Wonder, whey they took their informations?

[Rauli]

The site quoted claims that German losses were only 2.000. Until now, the LOWEST German losses number i saw was 10.000 and 17.000 at most. Wonder, whey they took their informations?

It think that they counted both KIA, WIA and MIA together. From the same site:

The operation cost the Germans 2,000 killed and 9,000 wounded.

Total number of casulties for Germans: 11,000. As has been pointed out the nature of Warsaw uprising, most of the AK casualties were KIA - wounded AK fighters were killed by Germans & Co.

During 63 days of fighting, about 16,000 of the Polish partisan had perished or had been reported "missing, presumed dead", while 9,000 others were taken as prisoners. But the greatest casualties of the rising were civilians: almost 200,000 perished.

IMHO the Polish fighters put up a stiff resistance. Civilian casualties seems to be right.

I was thinking about revieve this thread after I get my hands on the book of Sven Hassel. This quote starts bells ringing for me:

I saw Dirlewanger for the last time - he walked among ruins accompanied by two beautiful women. The city was burning, dead bodies everywhere on the streets. His leather coat was wore out. The women - one blonde, one brunette - very elegant, clean

Best regards,

Rauli

[szopen]

BTW, i have vague impression that i was once discussing with Ukrainian who said to me that there were no Ukrainians fighting in Warsaw Uprising...

[szopen]

I don'tknow why i eat half of my response..

The site quoted claims that German losses were only 2.000. Until now, the LOWEST German losses number i saw was 10.000 and 17.000 at most. Wonder, whey they took their informations?

It think that they counted both KIA, WIA and MIA together. From the same site:

Nope. All sites count separately German KIA, WIA and MIA: e.g. 10.000 KIA, 6.000 MIA and 9.000 WIA. 2.000 dead for 63 days of quite feriocius fighting seems too low.

[Rauli]

Nope. All sites count separately German KIA, WIA and MIA: e.g. 10.000 KIA, 6.000 MIA and 9.000 WIA. 2.000 dead for 63 days of quite feriocius fighting seems too low.

Well, it´s probably how you define low. Still if take 11k number average amount of casualties per day would be 32 KIA and 143 WIA. With those numbers ratio between KIA/WIA would be 1:4,46.

If we take 10k KIA I would expect number of WIA be something between 40-50k. Just some thoughts.

Best regards,

Rauli

[JPK]

What it means all these K k

Still if take 11k
If we take 10k KIA
between 40-50k


We are speaking of people who were kill


10.000 KIA
between 40.000 -50.000

it better than KOctet KM/Kilometre KBythes kilo......ect..

Regards
JPK

[szopen]

What it means all these K k

KIA killed in action
10k (10.000 if you are not computer science guy. For computer science guy it would be, of course, 10240 )

[szopen]

If we take 10k KIA I would expect number of WIA be something between 40-50k. Just some thoughts.

Yup, that's true. That's why i always was suprised by ration 10.000 KIA to 9.000 WIAs. In case of AK the ratio can be explained by killing the wounded by Germans. But why such ratio in German case? Also killing the wounding? Or maybe specific of city fighting?

[Liluh]

and doesnt leave reader thinking that poles were all nice and fair..

This battle also gave the Ukrainians troops ideal outlet for their ingrained anti-Polish feelings. This caused the Poles to lump together as "Ukrainians" all the combattants from the east. As a result if any of the latter had the misfortune to be taken prisoner by the Poles, they were all shot, either immediately on capture or after they had a 'U' (for 'Ukrainian') painted on their naked backs and been sent to erect barricades under fire from both sides. Thus the soldiers from the East could do no right. They were hated by one side and neither their reliability nor their fighting ability were trusted by the other.

I wouldn`t say that they were mass murdered, usually, as author mentions, they were doing some dirty physicall work like building barricades, cleaning up collapsed constructions after bombing etc. They were indeed heartly despised by Poles though and in no way treated as POWs (Germans had such privilage, except SS). If you`re looking for explanation, there`s one word - Wolyn, still very "alive" case in 1944.
Ukrainians in Warsaw uprising were called "Vlasovians" from the name of gen. Vlasov who commanded Ukrainian troops in Wehrmacht (or rather say, "German forces").

[Uninen]

Liluh,

Neither did i, i just said that : "doesnt leave reader thinking that poles were all nice and fair.."

And maybe i left that bit too "open" as what i ment was that they were no saints or free of bad / illegal conduct..

As (maybe) somebody would like us to belive.. dont know..

But anyways i ache to learn more of the Warsaw upring and of Dirlewanger (sic?) especially in form of photos and in form of "uncolored" stories.. if you know what i mean.

Regards
Uninen

[Mark V.]

The site quoted claims that German losses were only 2.000. Until now, the LOWEST German losses number i saw was 10.000 and 17.000 at most. Wonder, whey they took their informations?

The "low" numbers come from the official German casualty report from 1944.
http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1182

[Liluh]

Liluh,

Neither did i, i just said that : "doesnt leave reader thinking that poles were all nice and fair.."

And maybe i left that bit too "open" as what i ment was that they were no saints or free of bad / illegal conduct..

As (maybe) somebody would like us to belive.. dont know..

But anyways i ache to learn more of the Warsaw upring and of Dirlewanger (sic?) especially in form of photos and in form of "uncolored" stories.. if you know what i mean.

Regards
Uninen

I get your point, I just wanted to narrow this to some sort of explanation and to make it clearer for a reader who doesn`t know all the facts.

As for D., pictures which we most desire are usually hard to obtain (the one you attached is pretty well known and used in every single article about this topic )