Stalins purges: Responsible for 20 million deaths.

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
rappcom
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#16

Post by rappcom » 13 Oct 2004, 00:00

Well, you should have kept up with the program at hand, and its true content, and not lapsed into all that other opinionated stuff that wasn`t really its core-meaning to begin with.

AGAIN, you have missed something. This is not about taking bids on whether or not this thread will be locked, and it`s not about "who`s worse". IT`S ABOUT THE EXTENT OF WHY THERE IS MORE PUBLIC AWARENESS ON HITLERS MASS-MURDERING RATHER THAN JOSEF STALINS. Do you have any light to shed on why this is ? If so, then please add your part (meaningfully). Do you have some insight to this particular topic that can help others understand it better, if so please share it.

This is a very discussionable topic, and your true sense of opinion on its contrasts would be great.

Apocalypse_Now
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#17

Post by Apocalypse_Now » 13 Oct 2004, 00:10

IT`S ABOUT THE EXTENT OF WHY THERE IS MORE PUBLIC AWARENESS ON HITLERS MASS-MURDERING RATHER THAN JOSEF STALINS. Do you have any light to shed on why this is?
I have gave my reason. Others have also answered your question.

Or did you miss those parts?


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#18

Post by menel » 13 Oct 2004, 00:19

The problem is why people in Western Europe and USA no nothing about Stalin's crimes. In Eastern Europe everybody knows what was going on.

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#19

Post by David Thompson » 13 Oct 2004, 00:27

menel -- The problem is information. The people living in western Europe and the US didn't have Soviet tanks driving up and down their streets, and didn't have to live under a secret police system. The only way the people of western Europe and the US have of knowing what happened is through published texts, translated into their own language. There aren't many of these to be found.

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#20

Post by Apocalypse_Now » 13 Oct 2004, 01:06

The only way the people of western Europe and the US have of knowing what happened is through published texts, translated into their own language. There aren't many of these to be found.
And with Putin in power I don't think much more will be made available from the archives....

rappcom
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#21

Post by rappcom » 13 Oct 2004, 04:34

"Apocalypse_Now" wrote:

I have gave my reason. Others have also answered your question.

Rappcom replies:
AGAIN you have completely missed something Apocalypse_Now. If there were only one reason, one answer and one person giving it for everything that has ever occured in our world, then every occurence in our world would be completely understood, completely answered and known by everyone. There would be no things called "discussions", no "forums" and no individual personal input on anything. Also, discussions and forums are`nt an "absolute" one answer type deal. There is no "correct answer" for everyone (as you can see by reading all of these conflicting statements about the topic ........ there is just individual input, shedding personal light on these things with good facts and reflections thrown in along the way.

So, find a forum that you can dictate yourself and give an "absolute" answer for on your own topics with your own opinion, with you as the moderater, and then you will not miss anything else that is right in front of your own eyes ....... OR WILL YOU MISS IT ???? (Probably so).

I have had a wonderful time with all of the other readers who have dabbled with this particular topic and added their meaningful replies. All have been appreciated. However I won`t be responding to anymore of your ridiculousness here Apocalypse_Now in regard to this topic or any others. Mainly for the fact that you are clearly one of those sarcastic type of people who only enjoy playing "thread games" in these types of forums. You enjoy trying to attract attention to yourself with ridiculous replies that only make you look even more ignorant, and you end up missing everything as a result of this type of "thread behavior". Like it or not, that`s you and if you didn`t realize it before, then you SURE do now.

YOU WILL BE IGNORED by me beginning now, and I will not entertain anymore of your "thread-games" in this thread or any others under any other topic. So have fun continuing to be the "absolute" forum player.

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#22

Post by tonyh » 13 Oct 2004, 10:05

boobazzz wrote:
tonyh wrote: Advertising goes a long way and the holocaust is 'advertised' to such a large degree since the end of the 70's that it tends to drown out the other suffering that other Nations have endured throughout history, not just of contempory times.

Many people today actually believe that Hitler's war was against the Jews and that he killed Jews alone, forgetting the mulitude of other peoples that suffered under nazi Germany's political rule.

Thus the Jewish holocaust has become THE holocaust, while the rest have been drowned in the mists of time.

Tony
8O I just can't believe what I read here.... atrocities competition?
Jews have a full right to mourn their people in any way they wish,
I didn't say that they hadn't and "atrocities competition" is your phrase, not mine.
TonyH, besdies, you yourself called one posters names when he wrote on his own nation's suffering form Germans. seems like a selective apporach to me.


What exactly have I said that rattled your cage? Seems to me you didn't really read what I actually said in the post and you read what you wanted to read.

Tony

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waffen
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#23

Post by waffen » 13 Oct 2004, 10:27

8) yes this a very complex thread and well done rappcom for the interest,thanks david for allowing it to continue,and its interesting to read sergeys thoughts being russian himself. stalin did oversee an often brutal rein in his time there can be no denial of that as did hitler. and it seems unlike the germans who kept very accurate records of there purges of the time the russians did not .the gulags were known to the western world but the conditions and slave labour and deaths in these camps holding polictical prisoners then wartime prisoners was on a far greater scale than the nazi equvilant of jewish death camps. i feel if you study the 3 great powers of the time democracy v nazism v communism,is a more accurate look into the minds of the leaders who held the real power over their countrys populations......... :idea:

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#24

Post by rappcom » 13 Oct 2004, 15:52

Well, it`s mid-morning here in America, and I just got on my computer to see all of the thread happenings since last night. Looks great guys, I had no idea that my simple curiosity about the Stalin and Hitler death toll popularity differences would be such an enduring topic with lots of great replies and discussions, (showing all angles and points of light).

All of you who have participated with your individual input have been great to learn from. Of course there`s always 2 sides to every story, and fortunately I have learned from them both. Seregay, Tonyh, Apocalypse, David, Menel and everyone .... Thanks again for being part of my original topic. I appreciate and respect all of your personal insights and help with this. Enjoy your day, and now I will move on to other topics and threads throughout the forum to hopefully learn and understand more into our world through the eyes and perspectives from others like yourself. THANKS GUYS.

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#25

Post by David Thompson » 13 Oct 2004, 23:10

The posts dealing with the number of victims of Stalin's reign now have a thread of their own -- "Stalin's crimes -- How bad were they? at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61676

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Kunikov
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#26

Post by Kunikov » 13 Oct 2004, 23:26

tonyh wrote:One other thing. The Kulaks and Kalmyks and other victims of Stalin don't have the voice that the Jews are privvy to in Western Culture, especially in popular media. In fact, most Westerners haven't a clue what a Kalmyk is.

Advertising goes a long way and the holocaust is 'advertised' to such a large degree since the end of the 70's that it tends to drown out the other suffering that other Nations have endured throughout history, not just of contempory times.

Many people today actually believe that Hitler's war was against the Jews and that he killed Jews alone, forgetting the mulitude of other peoples that suffered under nazi Germany's political rule.

Thus the Jewish holocaust has become THE holocaust, while the rest have been drowned in the mists of time.

One must also remember that the Soviet Union was Nation shrouded in mystery for many years after the war, right up until the early 90's. Research into Stalin's crimes of tales of suvivors were simply not available to the West.

Tony
You are comparing apples to oranges. Kulaks are not a 'peoples' like the Jews, and Kalmyks were not targeted by a nation for extermination.

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#27

Post by tonyh » 14 Oct 2004, 11:57

Fine so. The Russan government can kill all the Kulaks they want because "they're not people, like the Jews".

Try telling a Kalmyk family who lost people in the Sibirian wastes "its ok. Don't worry. You weren't targeted targeted by a nation for extermination."

Jesus Christ :roll:

Tony

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#28

Post by mastodontti » 14 Oct 2004, 13:33

Hi, where can i find evidence on the death toll of hitlers war crimes, it was already stated that reliable ones for stalin can´t be found, how about Hitler?
It´s not important to me really to find exact numbers, just some direction would be great, you hear so many different opinions on the number.

Earlier on the thread someone said that Hitlers crimes are morely shown and discussed because of the "industrialism" and system. I have heard, that there was somekind of plans to locate jewish people to other european countries, but nobody was willing to take jews, is there any truth to this?

I know this was a bit offtopic, but thanks for any answers.

regards
Tuukka

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#29

Post by Topspeed » 14 Oct 2004, 14:03

Apocalypse_Now wrote: It is a simple answer regarding your initial question, Stalin was the victor, Hitler the loser, there is a tendency in this world to dilute focus on the actions of the victor, as opposed to that of the vanquished. Not to mention the litany of reasons previously stated by others. :roll:
On the contrary Hitler regime doings have been very carefylly examined and Stalin being a victor never let anyone study his wrong doings. Stalin let his own son rot in the Gulag. He also put Otto Ville Kuusinen's son to camp and went to Kuusinen and asked;" Don't you think your son is misstreated ?". Kuusinen ( who was to become Finland's puppet regimes president in 1939 ) answered:" NKVD certainly have good reasons if they have errested my son!". Next day his son was released. Later Kuusinen ex-wife was put to a camp and she was supposed to testify that O.V.Kuusinen was a spy for England. That is how Stalin treated those who were close to him, kept them in terror.

I am pretty convinced and is visible here too that only very small official death figures have been released of the soviet killings..1,6 mio during 1930-1953...that many people died from old age alone on those camps. We are nowhere near the truth in the Gulag death statistics, if you ask me. So the "official" figure only looks official and has been proven faulty already by Uninen for example.

200 000 labour camp inmates alone died in the Stalins canal work site ( water way connecting baltic sea to White Sea ). Fact is that anyone who survived the camps had to sign an oath that they will never tell about the life on camps. So how can you even imagine that those folks would ever print anything near the truth about the situation and death toll in the labour camps. Real figures will never be shown to the public, it just too horrifying and ex-soviets would never get over the fact if they'd ever been told about it. Furthermore I'd like to know the figures allaway from 1918 and not from 1930. It was a long tradition of humiliating and killing of educated, rich, upper class, landowner people. Some nations like finnish originated went through a genoside as " enemies of the state " and only very few lucky ones survived.

rgds,

Juke

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Sergey Romanov
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#30

Post by Sergey Romanov » 14 Oct 2004, 15:39

.1,6 mio during 1930-1953...that many people died from old age alone on those camps
On this (bogus) assumption, they were not really murdered by Stalin. So we could even say that almost nobody was killed in GULAG.
We are nowhere near the truth in the Gulag death statistics, if you ask me.
On the contrary, we have quite precise data.
So how can you even imagine that those folks would ever print anything near the truth about the situation and death toll in the labour camps.
They didn't print it. The data was printed by Russian anti-Communists.
Real figures will never be shown to the public
Wrong, real figures were even posted on this forum.
See
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15

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