Polish-Jewish Relations during the Second World War

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AdaOg
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#61

Post by AdaOg » 25 Jan 2006, 13:19

and a little off topic information about Polish-Jewish relationships through the ages

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhist ... Poland.asp

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#62

Post by michael mills » 31 Jan 2006, 04:26

The fact that the name "Home Army" was adopted in February 1942 is neither here nor there.

Well before February 1942 there was an armed Polish Underground force owing allegiance to the Government-in-Exile in London led by General Sikorski. That force may not have adopted the name "Home Army" until February 1942, but it was essentially the same force before and after that date.

Gross states that "Kalina 354" was the cover name for the commander of that force as at the time of the sending of the note. He found copies of the note in two different collections held in the General Sikorski Historical institute, so there is no reason to doubt that it is genuine.

Accordingly, his conclusion that the note revealed the depth of anti-Jewish feeling among the Polish population in 1941 is trustworthy.


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#63

Post by polskifone » 01 Feb 2006, 18:52

Micheal makes a fair assumption but I can find no evidence to back it up.

The Zwiazek Walki Zbrojnej was set up by the Polish Government on 13 November 1939.
Colonel Stefan GROT Rowecki was responsible for anti-German resistance.
General Michal TORWID Tokarzewski-Karaszewicz was responsible for Anti-Soviet
Following TORWID’s arrest by the Soviets, GROT was promoted to General and took over total command. Under his command the ZWZ became the AK 14 February 1942. After his arrest in 1943 by the Germans, he was replaced by General Tadeusz BOR Komorowski, who led the Warsaw Rising in 1944, and then by General Leopold KOBRA Okulicki until the end of the war. So who was Kalina? No idea at all, but he certainly was not the Commander or the AK of its precursor from 1939 onwards.

[The numbers also bother me... the favoured resistance pseudonyms were short on-worders... why the numbers? I think the 354 may be a document ref. rather than his name.]

Just thought I'd mention it. Best regards.

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#64

Post by ToKu » 01 Feb 2006, 19:06

To Michael Mills:

Gross states that Kalina was Home Army commander not commander of any other organisation loyal to polish government in exile.

You quated his book earlier in this tread: "The commander of the Home Army reported this attitude in a dispatch sent to London in September 1941: "Please accept it as a fact that the overwhelming majority of the country is anti-Semitic. ......Anti-Semitism is widespread now. Even secret organisations remaining under the influence of the prewar activists in the Democratic Club or the Socialist Party adopt the postulate of emigration as a solution of the Jewish problem. This became as much of a truism as, for instance, the necessity to eliminate Germans" (GSHI[General Sikorski Historical Institute], Kolekcja Kota. no. 25/10: doc. no. L. dz. 3763 tj. 41, Nov. 23, 1941, signed: "Kalina 354.25, IX. 41"; also see PRM [Kolekcja Prezydium Rady Ministrow] 45c/41: "Dwa lata okupacji niemieckiej w Polsce", Aug. 1941). [Note by Gross to the preceding quote: Incidentally, the content of this dispatch is not in the recently published edition of documents on the history of the Home Army prepared by the Underground Poland Study Trust in London]. "

The interpretation You gave in previous post is just interpretation, because he states as above: The commander of the Home Army reported [...] sent to London September 1941". No extra explanation was given by Gross. Historical books, research works are not poems that are free to any kind of interpretation. They should be as precise as it is possible.

Mistake is mistake (or maybe proof that not enough research was done by Gross) and no interpretation (re - interpretation or over interpretation) will change that fact.

My condition is that your quate from Gross book is precise.

Tomasz Kuprian

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#65

Post by polskifone » 01 Feb 2006, 19:22

For any one who is interested... Kalina was:

Captain Antoni Kalinowski, Officer Commanding the Polską Organizację Wojskową in Łódź. His was one of the many armed organisations that were drawn together as the ZWZ and later the AK. Methinks we give him slightly too much authority.

There you are. Now you know!!!

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/a_240604_grot_ref.html

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#66

Post by michael mills » 01 Feb 2006, 21:43

Despite the best efforts of Forum members espousing the Polish chauvinist interpretation of history to defuse the issue, the fact remains that as Jan Tomas Gross wrote, the heads of the military and civilian branches of the anti-German resistance in Poland acknowledged in reports to the Polish Government in London that the Polish population in general was strongly anti-Jewish.

In September 1941, the leadership of the military underground sent a despatch to London including a report by a Captain Antoni Kalinowski, commander of the POW in Lodz, that stated that the mood of the whole country was anti-Semitic. The fact that the military leadership sent that report to London shows that it essentially endorsed what Captain Kalinowski was saying.

In 1944, the Delegate asked the Government-in-Exile to tone down its expressions of support for the Jews since the whole country did not like the Jews.

Neither the military nor the civilan leadership of the Polish Underground would have had any cause to exaggerate the anti-Jewish sentiments of the Polish population under German rule. Therefore we must accept that the Polish population as a whole was strongly anti-Jewish and approved of the removal of the Jews of Poland, even if it may have been unsettled by the methods that the German occupiers were using.

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#67

Post by David Thompson » 01 Feb 2006, 21:58

Michael -- You wrote:
Forum members espousing the Polish chauvinist interpretation of history to defuse the issue
This is not an acceptable comment here, any more than "Forum members espousing the anti-semitic interpretation of history to defuse the issue," or "neo-Nazi apologist interpretation of history" would be. Avoid this sort of invidious characterization of those who may disagree with you.
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#68

Post by polskifone » 01 Feb 2006, 22:47

Dear Micheal. You make an assumption based on what evidence? We have discussed generalisations before. You assume too much. I have no doubt that this was the view of Kalina… but what was the context in which his report was sent to London? Was it presented to in isolation or was it in a group of other reports from other junior field commanders? Did they all say the same thing? At the risk of being accused of trying to “defuse the issue”, Governments report things. Junior officials report to seniors. These are collected and sent up the paper train. It was always thus in Government. To take one report from a junior official and to claim that...
the fact that the military leadership sent that report to London shows that it essentially endorsed what Captain Kalinowski was saying
is stretching the case somewhat. Maybe they just wanted them to read it… maybe you are right. Maybe they agreed with him. It is a difficult conclusion to draw based on one document.

My second point is about the much-respected Tadeusz CELT Chciuk who only died in 2001. When did he write his report? He returned to London in 1944 the same month as the Communists took over power. Now what do we think HE was writing about? I would venture to suggest that he was telling Premier Mikołajczyk, on whose behest he went to Poland, that Jews were not popular in Poland because of the common perception – rightly or wrongly, and I do not propose to go in to that issue here – that the Jews were associated with the Moscow backed Committee for National Liberation. If Mikołajczyk's Peasant Party was to win the coming elections (as it was still beleieved they could) then they would have to be seen as less pro-Jewish. That's politics for you. However, was CELT writing about the same events that Kalina was? I think not. I would contend that Gross is looking at two reports – albeit similar in conclusion but essentially about two different events.

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#69

Post by kat » 01 Feb 2006, 23:16

Mr Mills You are very often using words like "chauvinist" or "nationalist" when You are quoting Polisch historic sources. Could You please give me an example of the perfect book which is describing Polish history and which is not chauvinist or nationalist so I could compare it with Polish historic sources to see what are their faults?
And I would also like to ask You about one more thing. When next time You will be quoting another chauvinist Polish historian please write us also who else except You think that that fellow is Polish nationalist. Some famous world wide known historians' opinions would be most desirable.

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#70

Post by michael mills » 02 Feb 2006, 01:06

To Polskifone and Kat,

You must accept that the leadership of the Underground in Poland, both the military and the civilian sectors, reported to the Government-in-Exile in London in 1941 and again in 1944 that the Polish population in general was anti-Jewish in sentiment.

In 1941, the sentiment of the Polish population, according to the reports from the Underground to London, was that both the Jewisjh and German minorities should be removed from Poland.

In 1944, after the Jewish minority had been removed from Poland, albeit by methods which the Polish population may well have found unpalatable, the sentiment of the Polish population was that Jews should not return to Poland as rulers in the form of a Communist government.

Jan Tomas Gross suggests three reasons why the Polish population in general was anti-Jewish in sentiment:

1. Many Poles had benefited materially from the anti-Jewish actions of the German occupiers, eg they had received Jewish property, were living in Jewish houses etc, and therefore had a vested interest in the continuation of the elimination of the Jewish population.

2. Until 1941, Poles in general saw the Jewish minority as less subject to political persecution than themselves.

3. Most Poles believed that the Jewish minority had collaborated in the Soviet occupation of East Poland, and also saw them as collaborating with the German occupation of West Poland. That confirmed their stereotypes about Jewish cosmopolitanism, weak loyalty to the Polish state, and "Jewish Communism".

I see no reason why the analysis by Gross should not be accepted.

Polskifone and Kat please note: The views presented are those of the historian Jan Tomas Gross. Although I agree with them, they are not the result of my own analysis, so please do not attribute them to me.

You need to demonstrate that the analysis by Gross is wrong. For example, you would need to show that the leadership of the Polish Underground explicitly rejected the view of the POW commander in Lodz that the whole of the Polish population was anti-Semitic. You would also need to show that the views of that commander were not soundly based.

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#71

Post by alf » 02 Feb 2006, 02:14

Here is an interview by Jan Tomas Gross in 2001 http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_holocau ... /gross.PDF

Everyone should read it, . I will post Gross first three Question & Answers below, the rest everyone can read themselve but basically Gross interview answers do not support Micheal's intrepretations. Again I note Micheal demands others to disprove his minority views, actually the onus is on him to prove his views by showing a commonality of thought amongst other historians

Interesting from Gross interview below he doesn't seem anything like Michael presents him.
Interview with Jan Tomasz Gross, by David Silberklang, November 25, 2001

Q. Professor Gross, I’d like to ask you first about the subject matter of your book, Neighbors. And the first question relates to Jedwabne’s representativity, and to what extent were Jedwabne, Radzilow, and what we know about Wasosz a local or regional phenomenon as far as you can tell, and to what extent were they symptomatic of Poland in that time? And is there enough evidence even to
answer such a question?

A. Well, I think there is enough evidence. It seems to me that Wasosz, Radzilow and Jedwabne are unique. I don’t know of any other
locality in ethnically Polish territories in which during this first period of German occupation following prior Soviet occupation of this area there were such devastating assaults on the Jewish community living there, perpetrated primarily, even though with some instigation in the context of some encouragement etc., by the local Polish population. There were several other episodes in which a number of Jews were killed by their Polish neighbors, especially in this area we know about several localities. We’ll know more, people are studying and they are very interested in specifically focusing on it. I don’t know of any other place in which the entire Jewish population was wiped out in such a brutal assault in this time.

Q. Does that mean that there is something very special about this region? We know about the Soviet occupation,
obviously, but is there anything else special about this region that would have created such a thing as opposed to some other regions?

A. Of course I thought about this while writing a book, and to tell you the truth I couldn't think of any factor that would allow me to say: “OK, this is the reason why it happened,” because every region in some way is unique. We know that in this region there was very strong support for the National Democratic party, the main antisemitic there – the Endecja. The clergy in this region was also very supportive of Endecja, but this does not explain it, of course. So my answer would be - no, there is no, there is no specificity which I can point to. Incidentally, I think this is one episode, these three assaults, in Wasosz, in Radzilow and Jedwabne. I think that a kind of definitive history of this, of Jedwabne, will be written as a history of these three murderous assaults on three Jewish communities. Not only did they take place in such a short time, but also, in a way, it’s probably the same, to some extent, the same people who took part. We know, for sure, that
to Radzilow there was a group of people that came from Wasosz. I don’t see any reason why some people who were involved in the killings in Radzilow would not go to Jedwabne, for instance. Certainly those who organized this in Jedwabne knew about what happened in Radzilow, it was very close, so it’s all one episode. I don’t know what the factor may have been. It could have been just a few very enterprising horrible individuals who got this idea, or were invited to do so by the Germans who came then, and took on to it, and successfully organized it. I really can’t tell.

Q. When you look at Poland in that period, or even in the run-up to the period, the inter-war period, were there regional differences in attitudes towards Jews? The Endecja, and then during the war the NSZ vs. other underground groups, were they concentrated in
certain areas? Were there regional differences and attitudes towards Jews, or differences from one occupation zone to the other? Can you identify such differences in Polish attitudes towards Jews and Ukrainian attitudes?

A. Well, again, I am sure, of course there are regional differences - this is banality that there would be some regional differences. But I would not think of tremendous variation of attitudes as one takes it from before the war. I think that the situation, particularly in moments of such upheaval and of revolutionary change - the bringing in of the war and occupation, particularly these kinds of occupations, the Soviet occupation and the Nazi occupation, these were incredible transforming events, very radical. I think what matters is a kind of situation changes rapidly and very dramatic things can advance and take place, as a result of coincidences and a few things put together - the presence of some individuals, some facts that occur, some family feuds that may have taken place earlier between people who then could be stereotyped into larger categories. Jedwabne, on one hand, as I said, it’s a territory, and we know more about it now than at the time when I was writing the books, as people have spent more time reading through local publications before the war, so it really comes from an area where antisemitism and Endek-like attitudes were very strong. But at the same time the town itself, for example, had a relatively benign, and as reported by some Jews that I interviewed and the memorial book of Jedwabne Jews, a history of good relationships. The local Rabbi and the local priest were on good terms for a very long time. So, in the general area where these antagonisms were very strong, this was a place in which people kind of live together where they knew each other on a first name basis, and did not have really a history of assaults on one another, not in Jedwabne in any case. In Radzilow there was a pogrom in which several people were killed, but actually of the four, I think
three of them were Polish peasants who were killed by the police that were trying to stop the pogrom from unfolding.

Q. And similarly then you wouldn’t find any differences from urban areas to rural areas?

A. There are differences. There were some areas that were Jewish, where there were more Jews, and some areas there were less Jews. I don’t see a pattern here. You have Western parts of Poland in which there was the original seat, as it were, of the nationalist party and the nationalist ideology, but in these parts of Poland the Jewish population was very sparse; there were not very many Jews there, you know. As you move to Galicia there is a tradition of cooperation and co-existence of several nationality groups, more so than in other places.
The tradition of the Austro-Hungarian Empire is different than the Russian empire’s political tradition, especially in attitudes towards Jews. So yes, but I don't think it really bore significantly on how the Jews fared, and what they experienced during the German occupation.

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#72

Post by michael mills » 02 Feb 2006, 02:30

The interview with Gross posted by Alf is not directly related to the issue under discussion here, which is the reports from the Polish Underground revealing the extent of anti-Jewish sentiment among the Polish population, and its desire that the Jewish minority should be removed from the country.

Nothing in the interview negates what Gross had earlier written about the prevalence of anti-Jewish feeling in the Polish population, and the reasons for it. It does not negate the reality of the content of the wartime reports.

The three massacres mentioned by Gross in the interview were simply the most extreme examples of the wide-spread anti-Jewish sentiment of the Polish population. Elsewhere, the Polish population could simply stand back and let the German occupiers do the job for them.

I suggest Alf do something really radical and actually read the book by Gross from which I quoted.

I might add that, contrary to Alf's usual misrepresentation, I am not saying anything about Gross at all, or presenting him in any sort of light; I am simply quoting what he wrote.

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#73

Post by kat » 02 Feb 2006, 11:55

Mr Mills
I myself don't have any problems with acceptance of the dark pages in mine country's history. Even those darkest ones like Jedwabne or Jaworzno. It happened, there are proofs for that, and I would be an idiot if I would like to proove that such things have never happened.
I am also aware that there was a large part of Polisch society that had some problems with the fact that Jews exist. But what bothers me the most in Your posts is that You are suggesting between the lines that Holocaust which happened on Polisch land was provoked by whole Polisch society public order. Nazis did what they did because Poles wanted to get rid of Jews. That is how I understand Your opinions and the way You are using the quotes. Perhaps such understanding is produced by mine poor Englisch.
Regards[/b]
Last edited by kat on 02 Feb 2006, 16:02, edited 1 time in total.

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#74

Post by polskifone » 02 Feb 2006, 12:30

Dear Micheal,

Again let my say that your opinions and mine are closer than you think. Gross’s conclusions are based on his agenda. Your opinions are based on yours.

Gross writes:
Second, until at least 1941 the Polish population generally perceived the Jews as much less the victims of political persecution than the Poles themselves. Poles felt that although the Germans wanted to destroy the Jews economically…

You write:
…and also saw them as collaborating with the German occupation of West Poland.

By 1944 how many normally thinking Poles actually believed that the Jews collaborated with the Germans? There was a great deal of anti-Semitism in Poland. Probably a large number thought the Jews should have put up more resistance. There would also be anger at the Judenrat for organising the whole process for the Nazis but this is knee-jerk politics. If anyone had thought about it for any length of time, how many would come to the conclusion that the Jews collaborated with the Germans... and if they did collaborate did so for nothing more than the promise of survival?

In 1941 possibly the Poles did feel more like victims than the Jews – but again, not everywhere. In the areas of Poland where the Einsatzgruppen were at work… probably not. I’m sure there was much of the “better them than us” mentality. My objection is not against your basic premise of anti-semitism in Poland. Largely I agree with you. I object to loose national collectivism. The POLES!!! There are some in Poland (and outside) who still bang on about the “national libel” of Poland... the idea that Polish "victimhood" has been underplayed so as to emphasise the suffereing of the Jews. There are also the old chestnuts of... “The Poles should have done more”. “The Poles helped the Nazis.” Why did Hitler build the death-camps in Poland?” You’ve seen it all before. My point is that it is impossible to generalise about a whole country – as you frequently do – based on very little evidence.

You write:
...you would need to show that the leadership of the Polish Underground explicitly rejected the view of the POW commander in Lodz that the whole of the Polish population was anti-Semitic. You would also need to show that the views of that commander were not soundly based.

It would be an impossibility. Just as impossible as proving that the whole of the Polish population WAS anti-Semitic. There is no evidence one-way or the other. Some Poles – many Poles – a few Poles – take your pick… but not ALL Poles. ( I would even hesitate at MOST Poles as this require a value judgement for which there is little evidence).

You once called me a Pole who “when presented with proof of an anti-Semitic attitude by a particular Pole, […] write it off as the view of one individual and not representative of the Polish State or people as a whole.” I replied that I was. I still hold to that view. There is no evidence at all to suggest that the Polish Population as a whole was anti-Semitic. We have many reports that some were. We have some reports that all were. But then there is no reason to assume that these reports were any more accurate than the “scientific” polls of today. I realise that you are now going to ask me to prove that they were NOT accurate. Difficult to do… but, by definition, the only way to find out the views of a population would be to ask everyone – that didn’t happen. Hold a referendum – didn’t happen, and then it only shows the views of the people who could be bothered to vote. Have an opinion poll – well, we know how accurate they are today! I have no doubt that both reports cited by Gross were written by people who believed what they were writing. Furthermore, I am sure that the reports were believed by their target audience. BUT THAT DOESN’T MAKE IT SO! Again, my argument is not that there was not anti-Semitism in Poland – there was lots of it. My only argument is the branding of a whole people. There is a big difference between "there are many reports that state that the population of Poland was anti-Semitic" and the generalised conclusion "the whole Polish population was anti-Semitic". One is correct and cannot be argued with - the other is an absolute which can.

Best regards, Mark.

By the way KAT... No, there is nothing wrong with your understanding!!!
How you see it is how it is meant to be seen!!!

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#75

Post by michael mills » 03 Feb 2006, 02:08

My view is that the mass of the Polish population did not like the presence of the Jewish minority on Polish territory, and desired to leave the country and go somewhere else.

In my view, the underlying reason for the dislike of the mass of the Polish population for the presence of the Jewish minority and the desire for the removal of that minority was primarily economic. The Jews were perceived as occupying a socio-economic niche that was more lucrative than that of the poor peasants who constitued the mass of the ethnic Polish population, namely the function of urban traders and craftsmen. It was felt that the Jewish occupation of that socio-economic niche prevented surplus Polish peasants form moving into it, and thereby prevented any alleviation of rural over-population and poverty. It was felt that the removal of the Jews would free up that socio-economic niche and allow Poles to move into it.

The Sanacja regime, particularly after the death of Pilsudski in May 1935, supported the above general feeling of the Polish masses, and was seeking methods of increasing Jewish emigration and otherwise pushing Jews out of the country. It also gave tacit support to the privately organised economic boycott, underway since 1910, that aimed at the displacement of the Jews from their socio-economic niche.

For a good contemporary analysis of the above phenomenon, I recommend this book:

Buell, Raymond Leslie,
"Poland: Key to Europe" ( Lond., Jonathan Cape, 1939)

The reality of the Jewish occupation of a socio-economic niche was shown immediately after the war and even during it, when Poles moved into the space vacated by the liquidated Jews, with the result that the disappearances of the Jews did not leave any social or economic vacuum whatever.

There were other politically-based sources of anti-Jewish feeling, in particular the sentiment that the Jewish minority had opposed the resurrection of the Polish state and was psychologically and ideologically attuned to Poland's enemies. In Western Poland the view was that the Jews were pro-German, a view reinforced by the fact that after the end of the First World War almost all the Jews living in the German areas handed over to Poland opted to move to Germany rather than live under anti-Semitic Polish rule.

Elsewhere in Poland, there was the view that the Jews favoured Bolshevism, and wanted Poland to become part of the Soviet Union. That view was bolstered by the fact that many non-Bolshevik Jewish leaders in the West saw the Bolshevik regime in Russia as being more favourable to the Jews of Eastern Europe than the new states such as Poland, and even favoured the idea of a mass emigration of the Jews from places like Poland and Romania into the Boilshevik-ruled territory.

Such political views were generated primarily by intellectuals, and spread from them to other parts of the Polish population. For the average Pole, they were probably less essential in the formation of anti-Jewish attitudes than the economic reason outlined above.

I do not say that the extermination of the Jews of Poland was something done by the German occupiers on behalf of the Poles. The German Government had its own reasons for wanting to destroy the Jewish population.

However, what I do say is that the extermination of the Jews by the German occupiers achieved a result that had been desired by the mass of the Polish population for some time, namely the vacation of the socio-economic niche occupied by the Jews and its availability for occupation by Poles.

The mass of the Polish population may well have been profoundly shocked by the methods used by the German occupiers to effect the disappearance of the Jews, but that did not prevent Poles from benefiting from the situation brought about by those methods, and promptly moving into the niche vacated by the Jews.

It is also noteworthy that during the war sections of the Polish underground attributed to other East European peoples a desire to be rid of the Jews, and suggested that the extermination undertaken by the German occupiers was a response to that desire. For example, sections of the Underground press linked to the Armia Krajowa and the Delegatura suggested that the extermination had been started by Lithuanians on their own initiative, and that the Germans were simply copying the Lithuanians.

Perhaps that was an example of psychological displacement. Members of the anti-German resistance could not admit to a desire to be rid of the Jews, so they attributed it to their neighbours whom they did not like (probably with good reason).

I might conclude by saying that I have never condemned Poles for having anti-Jewish feelings, just as I have never condemned ukrainians for having anti-Polish feelings. I draw attention to those feelings as a historical phenomenon that needs to be analysed in terms of the historical processes that gave rise to it. There is no point in indulging in a slanging match over the existence of such anti-Jewish sentiments.

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