Le Paradis

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seaburn
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Re: Le Paradis

#61

Post by seaburn » 19 May 2015, 20:44

ZB37(t) wrote: I hope this helps to clear up some of the myths surrounding the Paradis Massacre.
Thanks for sharing 'ZB37(t). very interesting. I have seen some documentation on this atrocity, but have not studied it in detail. Can you post the relevant file reference numbers from the B.N.A. - this will ensure that your information is cited correctly and will of course further silence those who may doubt the veracity of your assertions.


C

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Re: Le Paradis

#62

Post by ZB37(t) » 21 May 2015, 17:54

Hello seaburn. Relevant file references will be posted shortly.

ZB37(t)


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Re: Le Paradis

#63

Post by ZB37(t) » 22 May 2015, 19:42

File reference at BNA, Kew, relating to my posts is WO 311/102 - War Crimes Interrogation Unit, Report No. WCIU/LDC/1480 dated 24 Jan. 1947, compiled by Col. A.P. Scotland.

Theodor EMKE's statement of 23 Oct. 1946 - "Knöchlein was obviously in command, who was conspicuous by his especially dominating behaviour and orders. As the prisoners were completely covering the front of the house, Knöchlein shouted suddenly "Fire". Uscha. Karl Klütsch also heard Knöchlein's order to fire.

Walter SCHMIDT's statement of 17 Sep. 1946 - "(At Le Cornet Malo) we captured 17 Englishmen (sic) who were sitting in a hayloft and I took them back to Bn. Battle HQ but they have all had to bite the dust". Statement made to Schmidt by Rottenführer Ernst Weissinger.

Sgt. Artificer August Leitl's statement of 21 Oct. 1946 - "As an ammunition expert I must have known better than any other member of the company whether or not dum-dum bullets were used and I hereby declare that this was not the case"

Page 16 of the report - Officers present at the shooting:

Per EMKE - Willy Fortenbacher

Per Leitl - Kaltofen

Per EMKE - Löw

Per EMKE and Leitl - Knöchlein

Per Emke and Max Schneider - Schrödel

Per Heinrich Schinkel - Albrecht

Per Leitl - Stelling - 1st Bn. M.O

Per Schinkel - Ehrsam - M.O.

Additionally, in the report, all the German witnesses denied seeing swastika flags supposedly displayed by the British at Le Cornet Malo and Paradis.

"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit"

ZB37(t)

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Re: Le Paradis

#64

Post by seaburn » 22 May 2015, 19:51

Thanks for the additions 'zb37t' hope to see more quality posts from you in the future !

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Re: Le Paradis

#65

Post by ZB37(t) » 24 May 2015, 17:31

Thanks seaburn!

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Re: Le Paradis

#66

Post by ZB37(t) » 24 May 2015, 18:36

Some further points about Knöchlein:

1. Quote by Emil Stürzbecher: "I could have told you something like that (the massacre) was going to happen. I heard Knoechlein say: "They (the British) have got Werner and Harrer. They'll pay for that". (WO 311/102).

2. His behaviour at Le Cornet Malo when he attempted to seize wounded British prisoners from the Battalion M.O. Dr. Stelling, saying "These prisoners are mine". Stelling refused whereupon Knöchlein stormed off. A subsequent quote was: "My first impression of Knöchlein was that he had gone mad!" (WO 311/102).

3. At the London Cage, Knöchlein's behaviour was bizarre to say the least. He had to be reminded by Col. Scotland in front of the British guards to behave like an officer. (Source - "The London Cage" by Col. A.P. Scotland).

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Re: Le Paradis

#67

Post by michael mills » 25 May 2015, 09:44

Regarding the question of Dum-Dum ammunition being used by the British. An armourer sergeant attached to No.3 Kompanie stated that nearly all the 12 German dead had head shots and the wounds were large. In his opinion they were caused by normal bullets slightly flattening themselves before penetrating the steel helmets and not by Dum-Dum ammunition. I hope this helps to clear up some of the myths surrounding the Paradis Massacre. ZB37(t)
The evidence by the armourer sergeant suggests that the claim that British troops had been using illegal ammunition was not a falsehood concocted by Eicke to excuse the summary execution of surrendered British personnel carried out by men under his command, but a genuine misunderstanding of the cause of the large wounds observed on the 12 German dead.

So far as I know, there is no evidence that Knöchlein committed further killings of captured enemy personnel, which suggests that in the case of this one illegal execution he is known with certainty to have committed, he was in an unusual emotional situation. It is possible that he genuinely thought that the British troops against whom his unit or other Totenkopf units had been engaged had indeed been using illegal ammunition.

It is noteworthy that although the Division Totenkopf took some 16,000 prisoners during the campaign in France, so far as is known its members committed only two illegal executions of surrendered enemy personnel, the 97 British soldiers summarily executed at Paradis, and some 200 French colonial troops executed on a different occasion.

The two illegal executions therefore stand out as exceptions to the normal practice of the Division Totenkopf during the campaign in France, and as such were likely to have been reactions to some sort of unusual provocation. It is known that the summary executions of French African colonial troops was provoked by the practice by those troops of mutilating their enemies, a custom brought by them from their African homelands (the reality of that practice is shown by the records of instructions from the French high command to the French officers in command of African colonial troops, warning them that acts of mutilation were being committing, and ordering them to suppress such actions and educate the men under their command in the rules of war in the European context).

So it is likely that Knöchlein had been provoked in a way that he believed was real, even if it was a mistake on his part.

It is crucial to know to when the above statement by the German armourer sergeant was made. Was it made during a German investigation of the incident? Did he claim that he had told Knoechlein before the summary execution of the captured British personnel that the large wounds observed on the German dead had not been made by illegal ammunition? Or was his statement made while in post-war captivity, under hostile interrogation by British investigators?

The value of the armourer sergeant's statement depends on the circumstances under which it was made.

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Re: Le Paradis

#68

Post by ZB37(t) » 27 May 2015, 14:58

You will know, surely, that statements made under duress are worthless legally. Each of the 15 or so members of the Totenkopf Division who made statements at the London Cage were left alone to write their declarations and had to declare that their statements were made freely of their own will so that they could not be challenged in court. Strange that only Knoechlein complained of bad treatment! August Leitl's (Armourer) statement was made at the London Cage. Why do people try to make excuses for Knoechlein in the face of all the evidence. If you do not believe the facts of the matter please go to Kew, read the 15 or so files regarding the massacre as I have done over many years and then make up your mind. I say again - there are no excuses for the massacre and other prisoner shootings in the area. From the moment Knoechlein crossed the canal, he was a timebomb waiting to explode - see Stuerzbecher,s statement regarding the British wounded at Le Cornet Malo.

I have no axe to grind against other members of the Totenkopf Division who fought and died bravely or behaved correctly during the battles. Herbert Brunegger: "Knoechlein dragged the proud name of our young Division in the dirt". Felix Steiner on those who committed the prisoner shootings: "They were green troops who lost their heads completely". Etc., etc.

Incidentally, today is the 75th anniversary of the battle for Paradis. Remembering the 97 murdered there, the 17 murdered at Le Cornet Malo and all members of 4 Infantry Brigade who died keeping open the vital escape corridor to Dunkirk, especially Pipe Major Jimmy Allan, Mentioned in Dispatches (Posthumous), Killed in Action defending Bn. HQ, 1 Royal Scots. Quote by L/Cpl. Jimmy Howe, captured at Paradis:" I last saw the Pipe Major firing a Bren Gun at the attacking SS troops". "Greater love hath no man than this - that a man lay down his life for his friends".

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Re: Le Paradis

#69

Post by michael mills » 28 May 2015, 04:51

So the armourer, Leitl, made the statement referred to when he was a prisoner in the London Cage after the war.

No doubt the opinion he expressed in that post-war statement, that the large head-wounds observed on the bodies of Totenkopf soldiers killed during the fighting on 27 May 1940 were not made by illegal ammunition, was correct.

But the crucial point is whether he gave that same opinion to Knoechlein on 27 May 1940, when those wounds were first observed.

If Leitl did tell Knoechlein on 27 May 1940, before the summary execution of the captured British soldiers, that the wounds were not caused by illegal ammunition, then Knoechlein had no excuse for ordering the summary execution, and his defence at his post-war trial was indeed mendacious.

But if Leitl had not given Knoechlein that information on 27 May 1940, then Knoechlein might genuinely have believed that the observed wounds were caused by illegal ammunition used by the captured British soldiers. In that case, the summary execution of the captured British soldiers was still an offence against the laws of war applicable at the time, since no proper investigation was carried out, but Knoechlein's action becomes more understandable, and his defence at his trial was genuine, not a conscious falsehood.

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Re: Le Paradis

#70

Post by ZB37(t) » 28 May 2015, 20:27

Your points are irrelevant. Even the Totenkopf Veterans Organisation states: "In our view also this unauthorised act was a War Crime". The key word here is "unauthorised". Knoechlein took it upon himself to order the mass-murder of 97 defenceless men and did not follow the rules of war- period!

Ignorance of the nature of wounds in Close Quarter Battle is a laughable excuse to make. At Le Cornet Malo, as stated by one of Knoechlein's Platoon Sergeants, (WO 311/102), his platoon came under fire from The Royal Scots at a range of 75 metres. The German helmets were made of tough Krupp steel. Any fool would know that bullets penetrating those helmets at close range would inflict wounds similar to those caused by dum-dum. One may as well say of a shrapnel wound in the middle of a battle, "That was caused by dum-dum. I'm going to shoot those bastards if I get my hands on them".

I have already explained the circumstances under which Leitl's statement was made, i.e. not under hostile interrogation but alone and with plenty of time. Each of the Totenkopf prisoner statements was made in the same way and each declared that their statement was made of their own free will and without compulsion. Do you not think that Col. Scotland would realise that there was nothing to be gained by ill-treating his prisoners and everything to be gained by letting them express themselves freely?

2 T.I.R. committed at least 3 massacres of enemy troops, not 2 as stated by you. The 3rd was the cold-blooded shooting of some 17 plus members of the Royal Scots at Le Cornet Malo, conveniently forgotten by you.You have also not mentioned the massacres of French civilians in at least 3 different places by Totenkopf members on their way to the front. Additionally, C.S.M. Johnstone, 1 RS, was lined up with 5 others at Le Cornet Malo and about to be shot when a German officer passing by in a staff car stopped the imminent shooting, saying: "Sgt. Major, you fight like tigers" How lucky were C.S.M. Johnstone and the others! That Knoechlein committed no further executions must be a great comfort to the relatives of the murdered British. Paradis must have been enough even for him!

Not a single dum-dum bullet was found on dead British soldiers or prisoners. If they had, they should have been passed to higher authority BEFORE the massacre. In "Saat in den Sturm", by Herbert Brunegger, a 17-year old Austrian member of the Signals Platoon of 1st Bn., 2 T.I.R., he raises the question as to whether dum-dum was found on any British soldiers and of course the answer is "No". You are trying to justify the unjustifiable.

It is obvious to me that further debate is futile as neither you nor I will alter our views. I suggest therefore, that we make no further posts but allow forum members to make up their own minds on the matter on the basis of the afore-going posts. Otherwise this will continue until one of us dies and I have more valuable things to do with my time!

ZB37(t)

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Re: Le Paradis

#71

Post by Peter » 05 Jun 2015, 16:30

My daughter was at home in the UK during the afternoon about 10 days ago and taped a part of the British TV antiques & collectibles show "Dickinsons Real Deal" for me because there was a load of paperwork being sold by the grandson of Warrant Officer Richard Richter (Intelligence Corps) an Austrian by birth who had apparently worked at the British Embassy in Austria pre-war. I believe he was an interrogator with the British Army in WW2. He had been a participant in the LeParadis and Wormhoudt investigations and his grandson was selling a large bound volume titled Wormhoudt with photos and testimonies from the Wormhoudt Massacre and loads of original wartime documents concerning both that and the Le Paradis massacres,original interrogations, witness statements, etc. A lot of it apparently related to Mohnke who was named several times during the show.

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Re: Le Paradis

#72

Post by seaburn » 05 Jun 2015, 18:22

That would have been an very interesting bundle Peter. Do you know how much they all went for ? Contrary to the belief of some on the forum over the years, Mohnke was indeed mentioned specifically in the Wormhoudt files and furthermore they have been accessible to the public for many years now as confirmed on another thread by 'Steve248' who saw them on the shelves in Kew. I have received some of them recently and will be looking them over as a matter of personal interest.

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Re: Le Paradis

#73

Post by Peter » 05 Jun 2015, 18:50

I believe it was approx. £1000, the grandson said he'd been offered almost as much by the museum of the Intelligence Corps but decided to try to get a little bit more at a private sale, sadly he was successful. A real pity, the lot belonged in a museum. Yes, the grandson said that Richard Richter had maintained for many years that Mohnke literally got away with murder. The block of paperwork included replies to his post-war prolonged correspondence with the British government trying to get action taken against Mohnke (he apparently maintained the battle years later).

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seaburn
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Re: Le Paradis

#74

Post by seaburn » 05 Jun 2015, 19:30

I suppose we should just be grateful they didn't end up in a skip ...hopefully the buyer has plans to do something with them and not lock them away indefinitely.

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Re: Le Paradis

#75

Post by michael mills » 06 Jun 2015, 05:38

On the morning of 27 May, 1940, Knoechlein's No.3 Kompanie had been held up at Le Cornet Malo for 3 and a half hours by 1st Battalion, The Royal Scots. No.3 Kompanie suffered 12 dead and 27 wounded and Knoechlein was furious and spoke of revenge. After the village had been taken, 17-21 members of The Royal Scots were found hiding in a hayloft having run out of ammunition. A German witness stated that they were taken to SS Battle HQ where "they all had to bite the dust". A mass grave containing the bodies was found after the war. All had been shot in the head or back of the neck.
Was that incident ever the subject of a judicial inquiry?

Was it established that the bodies found in a mass grave after the war were those of 17-21 members of The Royal Scots who went missing in action on 27 May at Le Cornet?

If it was established they were the bodies of British soldiers illegally executed on 27 May, was it also established that the illegal execution had been perpetrated by Knoechlein and the men under his command?

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