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War crimes against Germans in France prior Tulle & Orado

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed.
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Postby Panzermahn on 01 Mar 2005 04:59

I have never seen any mention of this supposed incident in any of the "Der Führer" regiment after-action reports from the time. Military historian Max Hastings, author of Das Reich: The March of the 2nd SS Panzer Division Through France (Henry Holt & Co, 1981) has this to say about Oradour being an "justified" reprisal for an ambulance ambush on p164 in the chapter "...A Rapid and Lasting Clean-Up":


First of all, Max Hastings' book on the Das Reich was riddled with errors..For example, even the name of the commander of the unit that went to Oradour Sur Glane were spelled wrongly..(i.e. Dickmann, actually is Dieckmann) so any advice to readers, be caution when used this book as reference. Secondly, Max Hastings based his research from another book (i forgot the book's name but please go to Mike Williams excellent site on Oradour..even Mike himself was criticall of Hasting's book) Thirdly, Max Hastings had been to Oradour, only once...a tour and not even a research trip. Lastly Max Hastings wrote his book based on his perspective as an American and not a person who has been there and then (meaning Oradour)

But Otto Weidinger, was there at Oradour during that time and was able to tell the german side of the story (Comrades to the End and Tulle-Oradour: A Franco German Tragedy)...Yet, if Otto Wiedinger's were so biased towards the German side of the story at Oradour and Tulle why did the French Government ban Comrades to the End in France but not the Tulle-Oradour: A Franco German tragedy


It's perhaps important to see Oradour and Tulle not as isolated incidents but the culmination of an established pattern


Typically biased views from somebody who considered himself neutral

Peaceful however does not always mean apathetic and as we now know, there was a Resistance presence in the town, but it was low-key and kept well hidden. It took the form of being a part of the network set-up to assist downed allied airmen escape from France, via Spain and Gibraltar back to Britain. Of necessity the number of people who had detailed knowledge of this activity was relatively small and there is no evidence that the Germans had any knowledge about its operation within Oradour-sur-Glane before the 10th of June (they certainly had never taken any anti-resistance measures in the town before the 10th).


http://www.oradour.info/ruined/chapter7.htm

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Postby Rob - wssob2 on 01 Mar 2005 07:40

First of all, Max Hastings' book on the Das Reich was riddled with errors..For example, even the name of the commander of the unit that went to Oradour Sur Glane were spelled wrongly..(i.e. Dickmann, actually is Dieckmann)


Hastings used the anglicized form of “Dieckmann” in his book. (or, perhaps more appropriately, his editors did) He also used the English rank equivalents of the cumbersome SS ranks. I suppose when writing a mass-market military history book (published in both hardcover and paperback) for a major publisher, one has to make sacrifices!

Mike Williams investigates the origin of the misspelling under “Third Group” at http://www.oradour.info/ruined/chapter7.htm#Summary

Most of the English language books call Adolf Diekmann, "Otto Dickmann", which makes me wonder a little about the accuracy of their sources. I have seen his name spelt as, "Diekmann", "Dickmann" and "Dieckmann", however the correct spelling from his SS records was, "Diekmann" and his first name was, "Adolf", not, "Otto", as appears in many publications. The original confusion in my opinion came about at the time of the trial in Bordeaux in 1953. This trial was widely reported in the world's press, many of whose reporters did not speak German. The name Diekmann to an unfamiliar ear sounds like Dickmann, which to English speakers is a more natural spelling. From the newspaper reports that I have read, this is when the confusion first began and subsequent authors have perpetuated the error. As an example of this, Max Hastings in his book, "Das Reich, the march of the 2nd SS-Panzer Division through France" published in 1982 quotes the name as Otto Dickmann and Sarah Farmer in her book, "Oradour Martyred Village" published in 1999, took her spelling from Hastings's book (she confirmed this to me by e-mail). The confusion with his first name is I think simply due to reporters at the trial in 1953 muddling Otto Kahn (Diekmann's second in command) with Diekmann. The trial was known in France at the time as, "L'affair Kahn et Autres", due to Kahn who was known to be still alive at the time, (but in hiding) being the senior of those who were tried in their absence.



so any advice to readers, be caution when used this book as reference.


But please throw caution to the wind by relying on the “admittedly self-interested ” alternate version provided by a former SS officer.


Secondly, Max Hastings based his research from another book (i forgot the book's name but please go to Mike Williams excellent site on Oradour..even Mike himself was criticall of Hasting's book)


P-mann, maybe you’d better read Hasting’s book before you slam it. Specifically, pages 237-50 - the “Biography”, “Notes and References” and “Acknowlegements” sections in which Hastings lists his sources, personal interviews, correspondence and research for the book - a pretty illustrious list including

65 published books (including Weidinger’s Kameraden bis zum Ende

The German Military Archives at Freiburg
London’s Public Records Office
The Paris Library of the Comité de l’histoire de la deuxeme [sic] guerre mondiale

Hastings also interviewed and corresponded with Das Reich veterans, an experience of which he says on p2

“...I leave readers to make their own moral judgements on the actions of the SS officers and men concerned with the story. I can only record my gratitude as an author that they met and corresponded with me at such length, above all Otto Weidinger and Heinrich Wulf. Albert Stuckler, former senior staff officer of the Das Reich, has compiled a vast file on its movements in 1944 for internal circulation among its verterans, which, like Colonel Weidinger’s regimental history of the Der Führer, entitled Comrades to the End, has been of immense value. As far as possible, I have tried to reflect the human emotions of the officers of the division in June 1944, divorcing my mind from the knowledge of the deeds with which they were associated. If I have been able to catch their mood with less fluency that that of the French and the British, this may be because in my interviews with them, when certain questions had to be asked and answered, our conversations became stilted and distant.”

[/quote]

Thirdly, Max Hastings had been to Oradour, only once...a tour and not even a research trip.


Umm..he interviewed French civilians and even former Resistance members on his tour of the Limoges region in preparation for writing the book (a tour which included a stop at the destroyed village memorial) How many times have you been to Oradour?


Lastly Max Hastings wrote his book based on his perspective as an American and not a person who has been there and then (meaning Oradour)


Slow down there, tiger. Max Hastings is British. He’s one of the preeminient UK military historians of the 20th century - up there with John Keegan et. al. Brush up on your Hasting’s biography:

Max Hastings was a foreign correspondent and the editor of Britain’s Evening Standard and the Daily Telegraph. He has presented historical documentaries for BBC TV, and is the author of eighteen books, including Bomber Command, which earned the Somerset Maugham Award for nonfiction, The Korean War and Overlord: D-Day and the Battle for Normandy, 1944. He lives outside London.

- http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/cata ... orid=47125

Actually, Hastings has a reputation for being very pro-Wehrmacht (a trait I’m sure you might admire ;) ) in his works.






But Otto Weidinger, was there at Oradour during that time


Actually, I don’t believe he was. He was with SS-PzGrenRegt. 4 “Der Führer” CO SS-Ostubaf. Stadler in Limoges on June 10. “Dickmann” left Limoges for St. Junien in the morning, then left St. Junien with Kahn and 150 SS troops of the I Battalion for Oradour, leaving circa 1:30PM and arriving at 2:15PM. “Dickmann” was alone with his boys when he committed his “atonement action.”


and was able to tell the german side of the story (Comrades to the End and Tulle-Oradour: A Franco German Tragedy)...Yet, if Otto Wiedinger's were so biased towards the German side of the story at Oradour and Tulle why did the French Government ban Comrades to the End in France but not the Tulle-Oradour: A Franco German tragedy


They didn’t have too. It was privately published. (see http://www.dasreich.ca/ger_oradour.html)

Typically biased views from somebody who considered himself neutral


I attempt to be historically accurate. Your worldview, however, is (and I write this with great relish) more partisan ;)

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Postby Georg on 01 Mar 2005 07:43

hello,

I have to get Pz.-Mahn some credit regarding his comment about Max Hastings book
"Das Reich" several of the members of the SS-Pz.A.A.2, is very angry on him, because
they have made some major errors about their action in Tulle.
As well as "Sadi" who really helped Hastings about the Tulle incident, is angry on him.
Several of them have said that I shouldn´t take much notice about that book.

Best reg.

Georg

Ps I have the book and I have read it several times, but "SS-Beutedeutsch" is much better

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Postby Panzermahn on 01 Mar 2005 16:56

Hastings used the anglicized form of “Dieckmann” in his book. (or, perhaps more appropriately, his editors did) He also used the English rank equivalents of the cumbersome SS ranks. I suppose when writing a mass-market military history book (published in both hardcover and paperback) for a major publisher, one has to make sacrifices


Shake & Bake historical-style books? 8O

But please throw caution to the wind by relying on the “admittedly self-interested ” alternate version provided by a former SS officer


This is natural reaction, (as David Irving said before, due to the aversion of Waffen SS, Wehrmacht and Waffen SS spreaded by anti-German propaganda of the Allies) when one has to take into account German views on perspective. It is natural that due to anti-German propaganda, most if not everything that comes from the German side of the story is apologia, biased, self-centred or whatever

Slow down there, tiger. Max Hastings is British


Okay, i got that mix up.

Actually, Hastings has a reputation for being very pro-Wehrmacht


I am surprised that i didn't knew that. 8O Perhaps his book on Das Reich show some pro-Wehrmacht views?

Actually, I don’t believe he was. He was with SS-PzGrenRegt. 4 “Der Führer” CO SS-Ostubaf. Stadler in Limoges on June 10. “Dickmann” left Limoges for St. Junien in the morning, then left St. Junien with Kahn and 150 SS troops of the I Battalion for Oradour, leaving circa 1:30PM and arriving at 2:15PM. “Dickmann” was alone with his boys when he committed his “atonement action.”


Again, Freudian slip by me. Actually i meant that Otto Weidinger was there at that time when the atrocity at Tulle and Oradour happens..unlike Max Hastings who was not there and "did not experience what is it like at that time"

They didn’t have too. It was privately published. (see http://www.dasreich.ca/ger_oradour.html)


Sorry i can't get into that link. By the way, this came as a surprise to me. Privately published and not banned despite available French government resources to track it down and banned it? Come on, even Andre Bayle was fined 1 million francs when he wrote the Sans Et Persante (and was not published until 2001), manuscript back in 1994 for "apology of National Socialism".....How come the democratic French government can even fine a man for writting only the manuscript yet (not even been edited yet for publishing) but yet couldn't, wouldn't find the Tulle & Oradour Book to get it to be banned unlike the Comrades to the End?

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Postby David Thompson on 01 Mar 2005 19:46

Panzermahn -- Source your claims and stay on topic.

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Postby Panzermahn on 02 Mar 2005 05:36

David Thompson wrote:Panzermahn -- Source your claims and stay on topic.


The incident where Andre Bayle's manuscript were confiscated and he was fined 1,000,000 francs (for such nonsensity like apologia of National Socialism) was related to me by (sadly was banned from here) comrade Ostuf Charlemagne as he assisted Bayle for some info about the manuscript if you were asking for the source on this incident

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Postby Rob - wssob2 on 02 Mar 2005 13:40

The incident where Andre Bayle's manuscript were confiscated and he was fined 1,000,000 francs (for such nonsensity like apologia of National Socialism) was related to me by (sadly was banned from here) comrade Ostuf Charlemagne as he assisted Bayle for some info about the manuscript if you were asking for the source on this incident


So it's hearsay.

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Re: War crimes against Germans in France prior Tulle & Orado

Postby J-M.Liesegang on 05 Feb 2013 19:28

Sorry to revive old topic but is there any credible source on Germans killed in Tulle by the French.

I have read texts where it is claimed that French had killed German garrison troops after they had surrendered and that their bodies were mutilated. Most of these texts have Otto Weidinger's Tulle and Oradour: A Franco-German Tragedy as a source.

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Re: War crimes against Germans in France prior Tulle & Orado

Postby Panzermahn on 06 Feb 2013 15:02

There are several excellent secondary sources with regards to war crimes against German forces in France during WW2 namely;

Under the Shadow of Swastika by Rab Bennett (1999 NYU Press)
The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau by Alfred de Zayas (1989 Picton Press)

The first book I mentioned by Rab Bennett (if you could get a copy of it as it is out of print) has shown that the partisan/resistance forces typically provoked German occupying forces into conducting disproportionate reprisals against civilians by a standard pattern of torturing, executing and mutilating captured German troops and left them where they were easily discovered by the Germans.

The second book by Dr. de Zayas is considered one of the most definitive books in English with regards to Allied war crimes. Dr. de Zayas used the original documents from the Wehrmacht Untersuchungstelle (returned to the Bundesarchiv by the US in the 1970s) as the basis for his book.

With regards to primary documentation sources on Allied war crimes, there are several archives and collections

- Bundesarchiv Koblenz, section on Wehrmacht Untersuchungstelle records

- Archives of the ICRC in Geneva, Switzerland; there is a section of the archives (required special permission for access) dealing with communication between Germany and Allied powers via ICRC 1939-1945 especially on the matters of reprisal shooting (e.g. the FFI shot 40 German POWs at St.Pierre de Rumilly as a reprisal shooting which is illegal according to the 1929 Geneva Convention as reprisals against POWs are forbidden, only reprisals against civilians are allowed during WW2 under the strictest condition and the ICRC was informed by the French on this matter)

-State archives such as the Bayerischer Hauptstaatarchiv in Munich which had a number of collections ("Sammlung und Nachlass") and depositions by German witness of Allied war crimes. For example, the Nachlass Gottschaller of the Abteilung V of one Anton Gottschaller, a former German POW in France who collected evidence and a compile a list of the German POW victims of the French reprisal shootings at St. Pierre de Rumilly, 1944

- the documents of the German Foreign Office of the Bundesarchiv Koblenz (the "White Paper" series) which details the official protest of the German government (via Switzerland) against war crimes and violations of international law committed by the Allied powers


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Re: War crimes against Germans in France prior Tulle & Orado

Postby Panzermahn on 06 Feb 2013 15:14

There are also several incidents of assassinations on German soldiers and officers prior to Tulle & Oradour which against resulted in the German occupying forces carried out disproportionate reprisals against French civilians;


- murder of German naval officer Alfons Moser at Paris Metro Station by Pierre-Felix Georges, a member of FTP, August 1941

- assassination of 64 year-old Oberstleutnant Karl Hotz, the local German commander of Nantes by Gilbert Brustlein and Spartaco Guisco, October 1941

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Re: War crimes against Germans in France prior Tulle & Orado

Postby J-M.Liesegang on 07 Feb 2013 18:39

Thank you for information. Local university has de Zayas book. I will start with that.

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