POWs from Stalingrad

[_Viktor_]

A German Stalingrad survivor who was taken POW was interviewed on German TV a while ago. He stated his disbelief that Jewish Soviet medics were helping the POWs shortly after the surrender..

Strange statement. He is badly mistaken if he thought all Soviet medics were Jewish. Most likely though, as many former Nazis today on the German TV, he has been trying to rationalise the ideology he has been fighting for, in this case trying to say something like Jews were also guilty of war crimes.

AIUI the number of prisoners taken was somewhere on the order of 90,000 (total German losses were ca. 210,000). It is quite likely that this (together with the need to sustain combat operations) overwhelmed Soviet rear area services, especially considering the situation before the surrender, with many of the POW presumably in extremely bad shape (hunger, disease, exposure, probably many wounded). They needed to be moved away from the city, since it was too close to the frontline, and in any case not fit to house them. Another reason for moving them would presumably have been to avoid them having to rely on the logistics system of armies conducting active combat operations.

In such a situation it is likely that many of them died very shortly after becoming POW, without the need to actively try to kill them.

This seems to be the case. That nobody tried to kill them systematically should be obvious from the fact that a considerable number of them survived and were released home, after all. Note also there were explicit orders not to exact any unlawful revenge upon the captured Germans, even though there have been some cases when they were used for pot-shooting by the guards.

[Eugene (J. Baker)]

The 5000 POW from 90000 concerns Stalingrad which this thread is about, and comes from an eyewitness account by former wehrmacht officer Horst Zanks memoirs.
I´d rather trust one German officer than 50 Red Army wannabe forumists.

The person you quoted talked about all German POW's taken throughout WWII, thus 60% of them survived and came back to Germany, don't put words in his mouth next time.

Right.

[Eugene (J. Baker)]

I think it is simply immoral to compare Soviet and Nazi war crimes. Just the fact that German PoWs were released home after the war should tell you that USSR as a state never planned or committed war crimes against Germans.

They mostly didn't and that's the point. Most POW's were murdered.
(And the german soldiers were notorious/famous for lot's of things but rape isn't one of them!)

And the USSR never planned or committed war crimes against Germans??? Now that's interesting...good to know!

Khm... whats a statement!!!

[Mic]

A German Stalingrad survivor who was taken POW was interviewed on German TV a while ago. He stated his disbelief that Jewish Soviet medics were helping the POWs shortly after the surrender..

Strange statement. He is badly mistaken if he thought all Soviet medics were Jewish. Most likely though, as many former Nazis today on the German TV, he has been trying to rationalise the ideology he has been fighting for, in this case trying to say something like Jews were also guilty of war crimes.

ehm stating disbelief that someone is helping you while your side has been killing his people (the jews) really isn't a way of trying to say that Jews were guilty of war crimes too

[Qvist]

The NAZI's starved 2,800,000 Soviet POW's to death in the first eight months of the war, a horror considered to be the most concentrated act of mass murder in human history.

That's an interesting figure, considering that it exceeds the number of Soviet servicemen taken prisoner in 1941 by a healthy margin. I think what you have there is probably one of the several estimates for the total number of Soviet POW dead during the whole war, for all reasons. If not, it is clearly very greatly exaggerated.


cheers

[Eugene (J. Baker)]

The NAZI's starved 2,800,000 Soviet POW's to death in the first eight months of the war, a horror considered to be the most concentrated act of mass murder in human history.

That's an interesting figure, considering that it exceeds the number of Soviet servicemen taken prisoner in 1941 by a healthy margin. I think what you have there is probably one of the several estimates for the total number of Soviet POW dead during the whole war, for all reasons. If not, it is clearly very greatly exaggerated.


cheers

Khm. Total number of died Soviet POWs - over 4 000 000

http://www.infran.ru/vovenko/60years_ww2/demogr8_1.htm

[Stephan]

A German Stalingrad survivor who was taken POW was interviewed on German TV a while ago. He stated his disbelief that Jewish Soviet medics were helping the POWs shortly after the surrender..

Strange statement. He is badly mistaken if he thought all Soviet medics were Jewish. Most likely though, as many former Nazis today on the German TV, he has been trying to rationalise the ideology he has been fighting for, in this case trying to say something like Jews were also guilty of war crimes.

AIUI the number of prisoners taken was somewhere on the order of 90,000 (total German losses were ca. 210,000). It is quite likely that this (together with the need to sustain combat operations) overwhelmed Soviet rear area services, especially considering the situation before the surrender, with many of the POW presumably in extremely bad shape (hunger, disease, exposure, probably many wounded). They needed to be moved away from the city, since it was too close to the frontline, and in any case not fit to house them. Another reason for moving them would presumably have been to avoid them having to rely on the logistics system of armies conducting active combat operations.

In such a situation it is likely that many of them died very shortly after becoming POW, without the need to actively try to kill them.

That nobody tried to kill them systematically should be obvious from the fact that a considerable number of them survived and were released home, after all. Note also there were explicit orders not to exact any unlawful revenge upon the captured Germans, even though there have been some cases when they were used for pot-shooting by the guards.

Right, this is my believe too. We know the germans were dying by starvation in hundreds and thousands already weeks before taking prisoner. Beevor writes about germans sending specialist doctors to dissicate a number of soldiers dying as they stand, without wounds or any disease. A little thin yes, but apparently health. Yet dead! The doctors saw in the dissication They had NO fat in them, not even on liver -where there always is some grease. = ie they were dying by sheer starvation.
And after two more weeks the army capitulated. No wonder most of them died shortly after, good care by sovjets when they came to POW-camps - or not.

The problem is the same Beevor mentions there was shooting at the columns of the prisoner and he writes everything was not well...
So the truth is probably somewhere in between. Both versions are correct - most of the Stalingrads POW dyied by fatigue they get while in Stalingrad - it is probably true and correct - but not all, not all and this too is a part of the sad truth.

[Qvist]

Hello Eugene

These are the figures that can be found in some of the key research on the subject:

1. Number of POWs:

- Krivosheev gives a total of 4.1 million Red Army servicemen in German captivity
- Martin Streit states that 5.7 million Red Army personnel were in German captivity, from an overview produced by Fremde Heere Ost as of 31 January 1945.
In a footnote, Streit furthermore quotes the figures from two other German works:
- Joachim Hoffmann: 5,245,882 (in Das deutsche Reich und zweitem Weltkrieg, bd IV, based on unnamed documents)
- Alfred Streim: 5,163,381 ("Fall Barbarossa", based on an overview by Abt.Kgf. in OKW from late '44)
- Gerd Überschar; 5.16 million

The contrast is between Krivosheev and the other figures, and may at least in part be due to a more restrictive understanding of the category "Soviet servicemen" on his part than in the German documentation.

2. Deaths among POWS.

- While Krivosheev does not give a specific total figure for POW deaths, his discussion of the subject suggests a total of perhaps somewhat less than 1.5 million (673,000 according to German records, plus "over half of the remaining 1,100,000" )
- Streit: 3.3 million
- Streim: "At least" 2,530,000
- Hoffmann: "roughly" 2 million
- Überschar: ~2.75 million

The basis for Streit's figure:
- 930,000 POWs were known to be alive in POW camps in early 1945
- A maximum of one million men had been released, including HiWi volunteers
- Around 500,000, according to contemporary German estimates, had escaped or been liberated
- This leaves 3.3 million presumed dead.

Streim's figure is apparently fairly similarly based, but since he assumes a lower number of total POWs, his death figure is also lower. Streit is very critical of Hoffmann's figure.

I do not know what is the source of the information on the website you quote, as I do not read Russian (and please bear in mind that nor does 99% of other posters here, so it is very useful to provide at least some translation of the more salient points if you use a russian-language online source) - but at least, it does not appear to tally very well with the general state of research in the area.

cheers

[Eugene (J. Baker)]

I do not know what is the source of the information on the website you quote, as I do not read Russian (and please bear in mind that nor does 99% of other posters here, so it is very useful to provide at least some translation of the more salient points if you use a russian-language online source) - but at least, it does not appear to tally very well with the general state of research in the area.
cheers

Khm. Ok it was my fault. when i'll have a little nore time - i'll try to translate a part of this page.

[Qvist]

The person you quoted talked about all German POW's taken throughout WWII, thus 60% of them survived and came back to Germany, don't put words in his mouth next time.



Re: POWs from Stalingrad
_Viktor_

Member


Joined: 20 Oct 2004

Location: Russia
Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:41 pm


Johan Björklund wrote:


The 5000 POW from 90000 concerns Stalingrad which this thread is about, and comes from an eyewitness account by former wehrmacht officer Horst Zanks memoirs.
I´d rather trust one German officer than 50 Red Army wannabe forumists.



First, I think you are being rude. Second, in my opinion, releasing the German PoWs home at all is an extremely generous act, considering it was them who came as invaders and committed unthinkable atrocities in USSR. No need to mention the Geneva convention, USSR did not sign it and Gemany, even though it did, never even wanted to observe it when invading the country.

Everyone:

1. It should be possible to discuss this witout rudeness, and it would be preferable to pay more attention to precision and less to finding reasons for being affronted.

2. To the best of my knowledge, it is well established that approximately 95% of the German POWs taken at Stalingrad (in, it should be recalled, a largely emaciated and exhausted state) did not survive to return to Germany after the war.

3. It is obvious IMO (as Kunikov points out) that the 60% return rate in the passage quoted refers to all German POWs through the war, not the Stalingrad POWs.

4. The issue of what percentage of German POWs returned is not in fact at all established on a consensus basis, because there are so many missing who are still unaccounted for (more than 1 million). A 40% mortality rate is a somewhat high estimate.

Overmans, the Maschke Commission and Christian Streit all seem to agree that the total number of German servicemen in Soviet captivity was around 3.1 million.

Deaths:

-Overmans (hereafter RO) states 363,000 documented deaths, but also regards the MC figure as plausible.
- Soviet GPVU records states 372,000
- The Maschke Commission (MC) concluded that 1,094,0000 German servicemen died in Soviet captivity
- Cristian Streit (CS) gives a figure of between 1,110,000 and 1,185,000 (in his article "Sowjetische Kriegsgefangene -Massendeportationen - Zwangsarbeiter".)

Both Overmans and Streit appears to take it for granted that that the individually documented cases does not consitute the totality, or close to it. Streit does not even discuss them (though in fairness, the article is primarily devoted to Soviet deaths).

Mortality rate:

This of course depends on the number of deaths. On the basis of the individually documented cases (whether RO or GPVU), it is a little above 10%. On the basis of Streit's figures, it is 35-38%, on the basis of the MC figures it is roughly 35%.

The mortality rate in other holding states were between 0.5 and 5%. There is almost no doubt that the mortality rate among Soviet POWs in German care was significantly higher than vice versa, though estimates vary a great deal here too - between approximately 40% and 60%.


5. While the Soviet Union had not signed the Geneva convention as Barbarossa started, they did sign it during the course of the war. Germany had ratified it long ago.


cheers

[Qvist]

Khm. Ok it was my fault. when i'll have a little nore time - i'll try to translate a part of this page.

Thanks Eugene - and no real rebuke intended, more a friendly hint . It wouldn't be far to ask people to take major translation efforts, but it is useful to state the source for the figures used (as quoted by the website). Same for other non-english websites of course.

cheers

[IVGVRTHA]

PART VIII

EXECUTION OF THE CONVENTION

SECTION I
GENERAL PROVISIONS

Art. 82. The provisions of the present Convention shall be respected by the High Contracting Parties in all circumstances.
In time of war if one of the belligerents is not a party to the Convention, its provisions shall, nevertheless, remain binding as between the belligerents who are parties thereto.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/eb1571b00daec90ec125641e00402aa6?OpenDocument

...Germany had ratified it long ago.

[_Viktor_]

A German Stalingrad survivor who was taken POW was interviewed on German TV a while ago. He stated his disbelief that Jewish Soviet medics were helping the POWs shortly after the surrender..

Strange statement. He is badly mistaken if he thought all Soviet medics were Jewish. Most likely though, as many former Nazis today on the German TV, he has been trying to rationalise the ideology he has been fighting for, in this case trying to say something like Jews were also guilty of war crimes.

ehm stating disbelief that someone is helping you while your side has been killing his people (the jews) really isn't a way of trying to say that Jews were guilty of war crimes too

As far as i know (native speakers will correct me), "stating one's disbelief" means "saying 'I don't believe". If that's the case, the person seems to suggest the Jewish doctors were not willing to help the German wounded and hence guilty of a war crime. Anyway, this would be very much in keeping with some interviews with former nazis that German TV conducted recently, where the old Nazis insisted Jews did their country a lot of evil in the past which is why they had to be punished. Also in keeping with some people who are indignant about why Nazi PoWs were not treated by USSR according to the Geneva convention.

[Andreas]

A German Stalingrad survivor who was taken POW was interviewed on German TV a while ago. He stated his disbelief that Jewish Soviet medics were helping the POWs shortly after the surrender..

Strange statement. He is badly mistaken if he thought all Soviet medics were Jewish. Most likely though, as many former Nazis today on the German TV, he has been trying to rationalise the ideology he has been fighting for, in this case trying to say something like Jews were also guilty of war crimes.

ehm stating disbelief that someone is helping you while your side has been killing his people (the jews) really isn't a way of trying to say that Jews were guilty of war crimes too

As far as i know (native speakers will correct me), "stating one's disbelief" means "saying 'I don't believe". If that's the case, the person seems to suggest the Jewish doctors were not willing to help the German wounded and hence guilty of a war crime. Anyway, this would be very much in keeping with some interviews with former nazis that German TV conducted recently, where the old Nazis insisted Jews did their country a lot of evil in the past which is why they had to be punished. Also in keeping with some people who are indignant about why Nazi PoWs were not treated by USSR according to the Geneva convention.

_Viktor_ - I believe we have an English language issue here, since it is clear that you did not understand my post correctly on at least two counts:

1) He did not say all Soviet medics were Jewish, just the ones who treated him were.

2) He was not saying they did not help the POWs, but on the contrary that they did help them. His disbelief was that he could not understand why Red Army medics of Jewish faith were attempting to help them.

I used the word disbelief in the 'I can not believe you just did that' sense, where what you did was a fact, and I am trying to make sense of it.

I hope that is clearer now.

All the best

Andreas

[Victor]

_Viktor_ not all Germans were Nazis, just like not all Russians, Ukrainians, etc were Communists/Bolsheviks. Such generalizations and oversimplifications are made during wartime. It has ended 60 years ago.