POWs from Stalingrad

[_Viktor_]

Qvist,

I never questioned your technical definition of the Geneva convention, and I never talked about the convention as such at all. Talking about the initial query about Nazi PoWs in Stalingrad:

Has the Russian Government at any time offered a reasonable explaination as to why so few German POWs were returned to Germany after 10 or so years of captivity in 1955. Of the hundreds of thousands captured what happened to most of them.
We all have our suspisions but what is the explaination from Russia, or is there none?.

my point was that it is impertinent to require that the PoWs are treated according to the convention (and require anything at all!!!) not only for technical reasons, but from the normal human's point of view (see above). Hope it clarifies it for you.

[Qvist]

Hello Viktor

Well, I must beg to disagree fundamentally with that. I do not think that nazi crimes gave the Soviet Union (or other allies) either a moral or a legal carte blanche to act with brutality in return - one crime does not excuse another. I simply do not accept that nobody could reasonably require the Soviet Union to treat its German prisoners decently or humanely. Were I Russian, I would refuse to accept it with even greater vehemence. We do not regard this as just another war between Germany and the allied powers, we regard it, with justification, as one between an inhuman and criminal tyranny and states who represented something better. What is left of that distinction if we accept no moral obligations for either side? You are arguing a position that diminish the stature of your own country unneccessarily.

And at this point, we ought perhaps to agree to disagree rather than risk derailing the discussion once more.


cheers

[_Viktor_]

Qvist,

I believe one will agree that the PoWs (and particularly those from Stalingrad) were treated as humanely by USSR as its resource allowed it. Revenge was never in question which can be seen from the orders and the treatment of the PoWs, and this act in itself is noble and generous. And I do believe the "barbaric USSR" acted upon the same idea as you just expressed: that there has to be something that distinguishes humanity from inhumanity. My personal opinion though is that they cannot have gone home without adequate punishment, for the majority of them are personally responsible for atrocities, and I do not think this punishment would be a crime or a barbaric act.

A different question whether you, an outsider, have the right to actually require from USSR that it has to be noble and generous. Especially in an arrogant manner as some people do. I do think you cannot require that, and I do not think this opinion diminishes the humanity of the Soviet attitude towards them.

And I do agree we should stop at this point.

[Igorn]

Has the Russian Government at any time offered a reasonable explaination as to why so few German POWs were returned to Germany after 10 or so years of captivity in 1955. Of the hundreds of thousands captured what happened to most of them.
We all have our suspisions but what is the explaination from Russia, or is there none?.

Counter-question. Has the German Government offered a reasonable explanation why 3.5 Millions Soviet POW were murdered in German concentration camps and why about 7 Millions civilians mostly Russian, Ukrainians, Jew and Belorussians died from starvation or were killed on the occupied by Germany Soviet territories?

Best Regards from Russia,

[dragos]

Has the German Government offered a reasonable explanation why 3.5 Millions Soviet POW were murdered in German concentration camps and why about 7 Millions civilians mostly Russian, Ukrainians, Jew and Belorussians died from starvation or were killed on the occupied by Germany Soviet territories?

I think Germany officially offered apologies, compensations and distanced from the murderous government that led to that tragedy. Has Russia did anything somewhere near?

[dragos]

P.S. Russia did not ever denounce the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. Isn't that a shame?

[Erich Hartmann]

Has the Russian Government at any time offered a reasonable explaination as to why so few German POWs were returned to Germany after 10 or so years of captivity in 1955. Of the hundreds of thousands captured what happened to most of them.
We all have our suspisions but what is the explaination from Russia, or is there none?.

Counter-question. Has the German Government offered a reasonable explanation why 3.5 Millions Soviet POW were murdered in German concentration camps and why about 7 Millions civilians mostly Russian, Ukrainians, Jew and Belorussians died from starvation or were killed on the occupied by Germany Soviet territories?

Best Regards from Russia,

You got half of Germany for 50 years...

[Johan Björklund]

Has the Russian Government at any time offered a reasonable explaination as to why so few German POWs were returned to Germany after 10 or so years of captivity in 1955. Of the hundreds of thousands captured what happened to most of them.
We all have our suspisions but what is the explaination from Russia, or is there none?.

Counter-question. Has the German Government offered a reasonable explanation why 3.5 Millions Soviet POW were murdered in German concentration camps and why about 7 Millions civilians mostly Russian, Ukrainians, Jew and Belorussians died from starvation or were killed on the occupied by Germany Soviet territories?

Best Regards from Russia,

Jesus, what bolchevik propaganda are you fed on?
I can explain to you if you lack a German answer: The 7 million killed died from the same reason as there countrymen in the 30s- i.e the soviet system was incapable of feeding there own population. Agriculturewise the Sovietunion had had a lot to learn from the nationalsocialistic Germany.
The five-yearplans were a Stalinistic freakshow, so don´t blame Germany for your civilian losses.

[Kunikov]

Jesus, what bolchevik propaganda are you fed on?
I can explain to you if you lack a German answer: The 7 million killed died from the same reason as there countrymen in the 30s- i.e the soviet system was incapable of feeding there own population. Agriculturewise the Sovietunion had had a lot to learn from the nationalsocialistic Germany.
The five-yearplans were a Stalinistic freakshow, so don´t blame Germany for your civilian losses.

7 million didn't die from starvation, try again.

[Annelie]

Kunikov

Perhaps the 7 million figure came from sources such as this

" http://www.iccrimea.org/historical/famine1931.html "

[Kunikov]

Kunikov

Perhaps the 7 million figure came from sources such as this

" http://www.iccrimea.org/historical/famine1931.html "

The 7 million mentioned were those who died during WWII, not in the famine. Secondly, there are no 'accurate' numbers for the famine in the early 30's, although 7 million in my opinion is too much.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Has the German Government offered a reasonable explanation why 3.5 Millions Soviet POW were murdered in German concentration camps and why about 7 Millions civilians mostly Russian, Ukrainians, Jew and Belorussians died from starvation or were killed on the occupied by Germany Soviet territories?

I think Germany officially offered apologies, compensations and distanced from the murderous government that led to that tragedy. Has Russia did anything somewhere near?

when????????????

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Has the Russian Government at any time offered a reasonable explaination as to why so few German POWs were returned to Germany after 10 or so years of captivity in 1955. Of the hundreds of thousands captured what happened to most of them.
We all have our suspisions but what is the explaination from Russia, or is there none?.

Counter-question. Has the German Government offered a reasonable explanation why 3.5 Millions Soviet POW were murdered in German concentration camps and why about 7 Millions civilians mostly Russian, Ukrainians, Jew and Belorussians died from starvation or were killed on the occupied by Germany Soviet territories?

Best Regards from Russia,

Jesus, what bolchevik propaganda are you fed on?
I can explain to you if you lack a German answer: The 7 million killed died from the same reason as there countrymen in the 30s- i.e the soviet system was incapable of feeding there own population. Agriculturewise the Sovietunion had had a lot to learn from the nationalsocialistic Germany.
The five-yearplans were a Stalinistic freakshow, so don´t blame Germany for your civilian losses.

would you mind elaborating on how exactly you arrived to that conclusion?

[Marcus Wendel]

As the discussion keeps on returning to the treatment of pows and war crimes, this thread has been moved to the "Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes" section.

/Marcus

[Oleg Grigoryev]

According to report written by Kruglov to Stalin, Beria, etc form, may 24th 1950, as of the date of the report : were repatriated 3 344 696 members of Axis forces – out of this number 2 247 368 member of German armed forces (out of this number 1 939 063 are actual Germans) 581 289 – members of Japanese armed forces, 329 093 – Hungarian Armed forces, 106769 – Romanian Armed forces, 21097 –Italian Armed forces, 1969 – Finnish Armed forces; In addition to that 57111 men of non-German ethnicities were used to form national units and partisan groups for fight against Germany . Additionally 214 924 of interned personnel was repatriated..

According to official soviet documents total number of Axis prisoners in Soviet captivity was 3777290; according to Kruglov report- total number or repatriated by the end of 1949 was 3344696. there are some other sources and in general as of 1950 the number of people who were still USSR (remember Axis forces –not German only) was between 519000 and 434000 people. This number includes those who died and those who was sentenced for military crimes –as of December 24 1950, about 20000 people were sentenced to different jail terms for the war crimes.