Polish trials concerning expulsions and the excesses?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Dexx
Member
Posts: 55
Joined: 02 Jan 2005, 00:37
Location: Europe

Polish trials concerning expulsions and the excesses?

#1

Post by Dexx » 08 Aug 2005, 12:25

Since I have learned about the case of Salomon Morel (ironically a Polish jew), I am trying to find out more about the situation but somehow failed to gather information on this subject. So I have many questions:

1. Have there been trials against people who took part in the expulsion between 1945-1948 or retalitatory actions against the German population in Poland 1945-1948 after 1989 or even under communism?

2. If there have been trials, has a majority of the perpetrators been punished?

3. If there haven't been trials, are Polish authorities preparing them?

4. Do documents exist that state how many adiminstrators and guards executed the expulsion and how many where involved in retalitatory actions like killings/abuses/maltreatments?

Thanks in advance.

User avatar
Halibutt
Member
Posts: 182
Joined: 08 Aug 2005, 14:46
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

Re: Polish trials concerning expulsions and the excesses?

#2

Post by Halibutt » 08 Aug 2005, 15:01

Dexx wrote: 1. Have there been trials against people who took part in the expulsion between 1945-1948 or retalitatory actions against the German population in Poland 1945-1948 after 1989 or even under communism?
I don't believe there is a need for such trial. Since the expulsion itself was not a crime, the Polish IPN would have to find out individuals who committed acts of violence. And actually the IPN is searching for such people, but barely anyone is still alive, just like in the case of untried WWII murderers who lived their peaceful lives in Germany after the War.
2. If there have been trials, has a majority of the perpetrators been punished?
What trials do you mean? Against whom? I believe you should be a tad more specific.
4. Do documents exist that state how many adiminstrators and guards executed the expulsion and how many where involved in retalitatory actions like killings/abuses/maltreatments?
The very nature of the flee of Germans from Poland between 1943 and 1957 was complicated. The initial flee was mostly voluntary and even Nazi authorities tried to prevent the Germans from fleing. Then some of the gauleiters started to organize evacuation trains while others tried to prevent it. Finally, there was a huge number of displaced persons and reffugees who escaped on their own. So, basically noone knows how many Germans were there in 1944/1945.

Then yet another problem is the Soviet frontline and the casualties related both to warfare and the war crimes by the Red Army. Their scale is also unknown and only various estimates are known.

Then, after the Polish administration took over some of the post-German area (note that large chunks of Poland were under direct Soviet control until 1990, including whole cities!), there were several camps established. But, as I mentioned, nobody knows for instance how many Germans were already expelled to Germany by the Soviet army, how many were killed, how many were arrested by the NKVD and sent to Russia and so on. So, I believe there can be no specific documents. Or am I wrong?
Cheers


Molobo
Banned
Posts: 629
Joined: 14 Feb 2005, 15:20
Location: Poland

#3

Post by Molobo » 08 Aug 2005, 15:06

I don't believe there is a need for such trial
Of course one needs to add that people committing acts of banditry during population transfer of Polish and German population were put to trial in the early postwar years.

Btw Morel is also accused of torturing Polish political prisoners, so this isn't a case of "action against Germans".

Dexx
Member
Posts: 55
Joined: 02 Jan 2005, 00:37
Location: Europe

#4

Post by Dexx » 08 Aug 2005, 18:32

Halibutt, thanks for your answers. But why do you think that expulsion in itself was not a crime? I know that the legal basis for the expulsion after the war were the Bierut decrees. But I don't consider law in itself legal or just since law must adhere to certain standards such as respects of some fundamental rights. The same goes to Nazi laws like the Nuremberger Racial laws from 1935, because they don't meet the standards I expect. Furthermore, it is estimated that during the expulsion around 2 mio Germans died from whatever reasons (sooting, malnutrition, exhaustion, age ect) and since the majority of the expelled people came from Poland I think that a majority of the 2 mio people died in Poland. I think there must have been many cases of mistreatment. But do you know if there are documents on this subject in Poland or if Polish authorities are still searching people who where involved in it? At least I know that in Germany there are still attorneys who investigate cases concering German crimes in WW2.

Thanks for your replies.

Edit: You have mentioned the IPN. What ist that?

Molobo
Banned
Posts: 629
Joined: 14 Feb 2005, 15:20
Location: Poland

#5

Post by Molobo » 08 Aug 2005, 19:04

But why do you think that expulsion in itself was not a crime?
Population transfer is a legal part of international law.
Furthermore, it is estimated that during the expulsion around 2 mio Germans died from whatever reasons (sooting, malnutrition, exhaustion, age ect
The number is disputed and was discussed on the forum.Generally speaking it is rather accepted that the number of Germans put under transfer is quite exaggerated and included military personal, colonists as well as people being part of civilian part of military.No numbers are given as to cause of death.In many cases the deaths were caused by Nazi officials
You can read the discussion here as to the numbers of the death.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6291
You have mentioned the IPN. What ist that?
Institute of National Remembrance.
http://www.ipn.gov.pl

It researches all war crimes committed on polish soil.

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 8695
Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland

#6

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 08 Aug 2005, 19:34

Ethnical cleansics are part of international law ? Quite interesting ...

Jan-Hendrik

Molobo
Banned
Posts: 629
Joined: 14 Feb 2005, 15:20
Location: Poland

#7

Post by Molobo » 08 Aug 2005, 19:47

Ethnical cleansics are part of international law ? Quite interesting ...
Population transfer not ethnical cleansing.Nobody besides ultranationalists is claiming ethnic cleansing of Poles occured in Ukraine and eastern territories when they were transfered from their homeland by Soviet authorities at the same time Germans were transfered to Germany.

Dexx
Member
Posts: 55
Joined: 02 Jan 2005, 00:37
Location: Europe

#8

Post by Dexx » 08 Aug 2005, 20:28

Molobo, there is no such international law that allows population transfer or as Jan has rightly pointed out ethnic cleasing. Basically, ethnic cleansing belongs to ius cogens. Ius cogens is “obligatory law that cannot be replaced by treaty law or customary law in international law. Every state must act accordingly. Ius cogens consist of the prohibition of ethnic cleasing, torture, genocide, slavery ect.
But I am VERY cautious with you, since I saw your interest for Polish nationalistic politicians and the dubious League of Polish Families. So I don't know if you have a kind of hidden agenda or if you are honest.

Edit: According to the web page of the IPN they only look after crimes committed AGAINST the Polish nation. It is stated there that the victims must have had Polish citizenship. Since most of the German population had German citizenship they are not covered by the IPN. I don't know if it this was done on purpose or not. At least it is a big legal hole.
Last edited by Dexx on 08 Aug 2005, 20:43, edited 1 time in total.

Molobo
Banned
Posts: 629
Joined: 14 Feb 2005, 15:20
Location: Poland

#9

Post by Molobo » 08 Aug 2005, 20:41

Molobo, there is no such international law that allows population transfer
I am afraid you are incorrect.
http://www.hri.ca/fortherecord1997/docu ... 7-23.htm#I.
Even in this highly critical report they are examples of population transfer that is considered legal.
38. An example of the way in which military necessity can be used to justify dubious relocations of populations can be seen in the decision of the United States Supreme Court in the case of Korematsu v. United States (17) in which the majority of the Court agreed that military necessity justified the relocation of Japanese Americans during the Second World War. The Court held that the exclusion of persons of Japanese origin from the West Coast of the United States was necessary as a military imperative.
The doctrine of military necessity must be strictly construed, with the balance of probability weighed in favour of the protection of humanity.
That can be easly applied to population transfer in question, as one of the reasons given for the transfer by Allied powers were military units and support provided by German minority organisation to German Reich in its war against neighbours both in Czechoslovakia and Poland.
or as Jan has rightly pointed out ethnic cleasing.
So in your view Poles were ethnicly cleansed of former eastern Poland and should demand apology from Russia,Ukraine,Belarus and Lithuania ? I certainly don't think so, but would like to know your opinion.
Ius cogens consist of the prohibition of ethnic cleasing, torture, genocide, slavery ect.
None of which need to be part of population transfer.
But I am VERY cautious with you, since I saw your interest for Polish nationalistic politicians and the dubious League of Polish Families.
I am only interested in truth, and please you attacked me on four(?) topics.Could you stay on the thread for the sake of discussion ?

Dexx
Member
Posts: 55
Joined: 02 Jan 2005, 00:37
Location: Europe

#10

Post by Dexx » 08 Aug 2005, 21:00

Molobo, I study law and I have my final examination in November. At least I know what I am talking about. The US SC has no legal jurisdiction over international law and its bodies. It is a national court. Furthermore, the decision deals with allocation WITHIN a country and not the expulsion OUT of the country. You cannot take this case as an argument whatsoever. Furthermore, I equal population transfer and ethnic cleansing. The first one is only an euphemism for the latter and only used by people who want to justify the deportation of a population.

To your points about the expulsion of the Poles from todays Ukrainian territory: Yes, I think that it was ethnic cleasing. The people who were ethnical cleansed from territories where their ancestors had lived should be recognized as victims thereof. Humanity and human dignity is indivisible. Every human has fundamental rights without respect to their nationality.

For the last comment. I stay on the topic, but I don't know whether your counter-arguments are based on a hidden agenda or on honesty. So I articulate my reservation on your comments.

Molobo
Banned
Posts: 629
Joined: 14 Feb 2005, 15:20
Location: Poland

#11

Post by Molobo » 08 Aug 2005, 21:12

To your points about the expulsion of the Poles from todays Ukrainian territory: Yes, I think that it was ethnic cleasing. The people who were ethnical cleansed from territories where their ancestors had lived should be recognized as victims thereof.
They are no political organisations in Poland that demand apologies of population transfer from Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania.
In Germany the organisation pressing such demands on Poland(6 milion casualites, 650 bilion $ of war losses) regulary is host to speaches from leading German politicians.
Why such difference ?
Molobo, I study law and I have my final examination in November. At least I know what I am talking about.
Appearantly you must learn harder, since the document lists the military neccesity as one example of legal population transfer.
Furthermore, I equal population transfer and ethnic cleansing
Then write a paper on this point of view.However population transfer isn't defined as ethnic cleansing.
Furthermore, the decision deals with allocation WITHIN a country and not the expulsion OUT of the country.
Actually your sentence is wrong.
Federal Republic of Germany was created in 1949, just as East Germany.Territories from which Germans were transfered were under administrative Polish control but didn't make Polish borders till 1950 when East Germany signed a treaty with Poland reckognising the border.Western Germany waited till 1991.Furthermore you forget that under German law people leaving voluntary are treated as "expelled" even when they waren't living in the territory before German occupation.Erika Steinbach is a famous example of such (quite disturbing IMHO) aproach by German authorities.
Last edited by Molobo on 08 Aug 2005, 21:26, edited 1 time in total.

Dexx
Member
Posts: 55
Joined: 02 Jan 2005, 00:37
Location: Europe

#12

Post by Dexx » 08 Aug 2005, 21:19

Molobo wrote: Appearantly you must learn harder, since the document lists the military neccesity as one example of legal population transfer.
Your line of argument on this one is weak if not insulting. I let other people judge your apporach. It seems like you try to hide behind it in order to not needing to deal with my arguments I have put forward. Once more highlighted for you:
The US SC has no legal jurisdiction over international law and its bodies. It is a national court. Furthermore, the decision deals with allocation WITHIN a country and not the expulsion OUT of the country.
Edit: You were the one who put forward the US SC decision to justify the population transfer/ethnic cleansing out of Poland and that it was right according to international law. I have put forward that you cannot compare both situations due to different cirumstances.

Molobo
Banned
Posts: 629
Joined: 14 Feb 2005, 15:20
Location: Poland

#13

Post by Molobo » 08 Aug 2005, 21:30

I have put forward that you cannot compare both situations due to different cirumstances.
Read above my edited post, furthermore you realise the discussion is absurd since the proper legal acts of today don't work backwards?

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

#14

Post by David Thompson » 08 Aug 2005, 21:40

Everyone -- Please avoid personal remarks and stay on topic.

Dexx
Member
Posts: 55
Joined: 02 Jan 2005, 00:37
Location: Europe

#15

Post by Dexx » 08 Aug 2005, 21:43

Molobo wrote:
I have put forward that you cannot compare both situations due to different cirumstances.
Read above my edited post, furthermore you realise the discussion is absurd since the proper legal acts of today don't work backwards?
What legal acts of today? YOU came up with a US SC decision from WW2 to justify the expulsion AFTER WW2

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”