Trust me: I'm a doctor. The Memoirs of Gisella Perl.

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robota
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Trust me: I'm a doctor. The Memoirs of Gisella Perl.

#1

Post by robota » 20 Oct 2005, 09:14

An interesting insight into myth-making, the unspoken fascination in our culture for tales of frankenstein experimentation and the nature of truth in Communist societies might could from Gisella Perl's memoir "I Was A Doctor In Auschwitz"

This account doesn't sound that likely to me. Should it be taken with a grain of salt? If so, what is the motivation for myth-making.

"The doctors of the hospital were sent for. The sight which greeted us "when we entered Block VII is one never to be forgotten. From the cages along the walls about six hundred panic-stricken, trembling young women were looking at us with silent pleading in their eyes. The other hundred were lying on the ground, pale, faint, bleeding. Their pulse was almost inaudible, their breathing strained and deep rivers of blood were flowing around their bodies. Big, strong SS men were going from one to the other sticking tremendous needles into their veins and robbing their undernourished, emaciated bodies of their last drop of blood. The German army needed blood plasma! The guinea pigs of Auschwitz were just the people to furnish that plasma. Rassenschande or contamination with "inferior Jewish blood" was forgotten. We were too "inferior" to live, but not too inferior to keep the German army alive with our blood. Besides, nobody would know. The blood donors, along with the other prisoners of Auschwitz would never live to tell their tale. By the end of the war fat wheat would grow out of their ashes and the soap made of their bodies would be used to wash the laundry of the returning German heroes.

We were ordered to put these women back on their feet before they returned to camp so as to make place for others. What could we do without disinfectants, medicines, liquids? How could we replace the brutally stolen blood? All we had were words, encouragement, tenderness. And yet, under our care, these unfortunate creatures slowly returned to life and they even smiled when saying: "This is still better than the crematory."

Block VII was always full. Once it was the women with beautiful eyes who were told to come forward, once the women with beautiful hands. And the poor wretches always believed the stories they were told, came forward, and to the amusement of the SS henchmen gave their last drops of precious blood for the German soldiers who used the strength robbed from us to murder our friends, our relatives, our allies."


http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERauschwitz.htm

Baggins
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#2

Post by Baggins » 20 Oct 2005, 12:30

Exactly the same story was heard during WWI in Europe, and in India in the 1980s (there was even an Indian film centered around the story of Brits draining Indians of blood during their rule in India), and rumors of blood taken from Jews sneaked throughout Germany and the Soviet Union as well(some soldiers believed them). A version with Soviet POWs drained of blood and left to die of exahustion had been posted on this forum in the past. Guess it's the kind of atrocity most tempting to fans of vampire stories... :D

Camp prisoners could hardly be used for blood, they were already exhausted when they arrived, were not fed, ridden with diseases provoked by lack of clean water and sanitation, nobody tested them for blood group. Using blood from a camp inmate on a healthy person would be the same thing as poisoning.

~Frodo Baggins from the Shire


David Thompson
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#3

Post by David Thompson » 20 Oct 2005, 20:50

robota -- You wrote:
An interesting insight into myth-making, the unspoken fascination in our culture for tales of frankenstein experimentation and the nature of truth in Communist societies might could from Gisella Perl's memoir "I Was A Doctor In Auschwitz"

This account doesn't sound that likely to me. Should it be taken with a grain of salt? If so, what is the motivation for myth-making.
What parts of the account do you contend are unlikely, and why? With that information, we can discuss the issue of myth and myth-making, and the nature of truth in Communist societies as it relates to the claim or claims at issue.

Baggins -- You wrote:
Camp prisoners could hardly be used for blood, they were already exhausted when they arrived, were not fed, ridden with diseases provoked by lack of clean water and sanitation, nobody tested them for blood group. Using blood from a camp inmate on a healthy person would be the same thing as poisoning.
Proof, please. If you have information linking the condition of prisoners on arrival to those later chosen to give blood, please include it.

alf
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#4

Post by alf » 21 Oct 2005, 01:34

Robota wrote
An interesting insight into myth-making, the unspoken fascination in our culture for tales of frankenstein experimentation and the nature of truth in Communist societies might could from Gisella Perl's memoir "I Was A Doctor In Auschwitz"
I am lost here, I understand that Gisella Perl went to the USA in 1945-46 as a refugee and published her book "I Was A Doctor In Auschwitz" in 1948 there. So how does Communist "truths" impact then???? Her biograpghy (and subsequent film of her life called "Out of the Ashes" places her in New York definitely in 1947.) Google it and see the many references Heres one to get started http://entertainment.msn.com/movies/movie.aspx?m=545926

So she was in the US post war, wrote her book in America and published it there, her exposure to Communism was minimal, other than the fact the Russians liberated Auschwitz, so I find Robota's leaps of logic fascinating but illuminating. I can only assume taking a single paragraph in isolation and using that to prove "Communist evil" of course helps to soften the Nazi atrocties she described.

"
This account doesn't sound that likely to me. Should it be taken with a grain of salt? .
The paragraph or the book as a whole? Anything taken in isolation can be taken out of context easily. Is this an attempt to argue the premise "if one paragraph appears unbelivable then the whole book is false" and therefore for the whole Nazi Holocaust is false? It is a all an evil communist/jewish plot to dupe the west??

On that I will post some more later but the real question is. Are there any other accounts from survivors that confirm her book? And the answer is yes, there are. Again Google and research, so the "grain of salt" is puzzling.

My goodness even basic research to Amazon.com will bring up a number of other books that interlock with hers and confirm her experiences.

BTW I thought it was a forum rule that if quoting from a book, the edition and page number was required so others could go and research fro themselves? Or if this a cut and paste from an internet site, what is the URL? Proofs please.

Back to my orginal point, I am still lost, link the book to communist untruths? I can only assume that the intent is to shift the focus away from Nazi realities.

The onus is on Robota to explain his logic , she was in the US the book was published in the US. The initial premise is therefore incorrect.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001D ... 8&v=glance

(edited twice to fix my many typos sorry)

robota
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#5

Post by robota » 21 Oct 2005, 02:17

Excellent work, alf.

You have certainly convinced me.
The motivation for her mythologizing must derive from ethnic and tribal affiliations rather than solely ideological ones.

Nevertheless the continuing popularity of her account does indicate an enduring attraction of our culture for Frankenstein tales of horror. And the ongoing nexus between Hollywood and this mythology is truly fascinating.

http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/m ... v_id=35654

From 1943.
Kolya (Dana Andrews), Kurin (Walter Huston), Damian (Farley Granger), and Marina (Anne Baxter) are members of a farming collective in the Ukraine known as the North Star. The hard-working but happy members of the North Star find their way of life shattered when Germany, in defiance of previous treaties, storms the nation and begins a brutal occupation. Dr. Otto Von Harden (Erich Von Stroheim) begins gathering children -- who are to be used for blood transfusions and medical experiments.
Interesting the way Life sometimes imitates Art.

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#6

Post by David Thompson » 21 Oct 2005, 02:39

robota -- I asked you:
What parts of the account do you contend are unlikely, and why? With that information, we can discuss the issue of myth and myth-making, and the nature of truth in Communist societies as it relates to the claim or claims at issue.
alf raised similar questions. You didn't answer them (or, for that matter, my earlier request to you in this thread for sources at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 949#783949 ). Instead you remarked:
The motivation for her mythologizing must derive from ethnic and tribal affiliations rather than solely ideological ones.

You're assuming the point at issue ("her mythologizing"), as though it had already been proven. It hasn't been. You haven't demonstrated the existence, or even the probability, of a myth yet. Do that first, then a discussion of myth-making, mythologizing, motivation and Dr. Perl's account might be productive. Otherwise, your post is just speculative agitprop.

You also wrote:
From 1943.

Kolya (Dana Andrews), Kurin (Walter Huston), Damian (Farley Granger), and Marina (Anne Baxter) are members of a farming collective in the Ukraine known as the North Star. The hard-working but happy members of the North Star find their way of life shattered when Germany, in defiance of previous treaties, storms the nation and begins a brutal occupation. Dr. Otto Von Harden (Erich Von Stroheim) begins gathering children -- who are to be used for blood transfusions and medical experiments.

Interesting the way Life sometimes imitates Art.
So what? Jules Verne predicted the submarine (20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, 1873) and aerial bombardment (Robur the Conqueror, 1886; The Master of the World, 1905); H.G. Wells anticipated doctors who experimented on human subjects (The Island of Dr. Moreau, 1896) and the armored fighting vehicle (The Land Ironclads, 1903). We have "copycat" killers too, and sometimes politicians plagiarize from historical speeches. There are scores of examples of this phenomenon, as well as its reverse. Art imitates life just as frequently, and history presents recurring examples of specific behavior as well. The fact that there may be a precedent in fact or fiction hardly proves a similar, successive occurrence is imaginary.

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#7

Post by Baggins » 21 Oct 2005, 16:18

David Thompson wrote:Baggins -- You wrote:
Camp prisoners could hardly be used for blood, they were already exhausted when they arrived, were not fed, ridden with diseases provoked by lack of clean water and sanitation, nobody tested them for blood group. Using blood from a camp inmate on a healthy person would be the same thing as poisoning.
Proof, please. If you have information linking the condition of prisoners on arrival to those later chosen to give blood, please include it.
Wasn't the physical condition of camp prisoners described in most horrendous manner by most survivor accounts?...

~Frodo Baggins from the Shire

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#8

Post by David Thompson » 21 Oct 2005, 18:48

Baggins -- You asked:
Wasn't the physical condition of camp prisoners described in most horrendous manner by most survivor accounts?...
Not many people thought they were well-treated at the concentration camps, but that is a different issue from the point you made -- that their blood was unusable for transfusions (my emphasis):
Camp prisoners could hardly be used for blood, they were already exhausted when they arrived, were not fed, ridden with diseases provoked by lack of clean water and sanitation, nobody tested them for blood group. Using blood from a camp inmate on a healthy person would be the same thing as poisoning.

That's why I asked you for proof. Do you have any?

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John W
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#9

Post by John W » 22 Oct 2005, 11:51

Baggins wrote:in India in the 1980s (there was even an Indian film centered around the story of Brits draining Indians of blood during their rule in India)
Just curious but... HUH?!!!

Care to elaborate please :?

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#10

Post by Dan » 22 Oct 2005, 14:23

David, not to beat a horse that died ten years ago, but if I claim that prisoners were made into soap at Auschwitz I might as well claim that there are secret SS bases in Antarctica. And if I claim that, what does that do to my credibility?
My goodness even basic research to Amazon.com will bring up a number of other books that interlock with hers and confirm her experiences.
But are there any serious scholars do defend her? A google or Amazon search can find you anything you want.

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#11

Post by michael mills » 22 Oct 2005, 17:45

Dr Gisella Perl also contributed to the myth-making about Irma Grese as the female sexual monster par excellence.

In her book, Perl includes a long, graphic description of Grese whipping a female prisoner on the breasts and having a sexual orgasm while doing so. The scene is pictured in gaudy detail worthy of a pornographic novel.

That description is contrary to accounts by more sober prisoners, who describe Grese as an inexperienced young girl out of her depth, who tried to control large numbers of prisoners by intimidating them with her whip and her dog, which barked at the prisoners but did not bite them.

Perl also criticises her fellow female Jewish prisoners for supposedly lusting after the handsome Dr Mengele.

Those strong sexual elements that pervade Perl's book suggest that she was suffering from some sort of sexual neurosis that she sought to sublimate by projecting her own unacknowledged urges onto others, onto Grese and her fellow prisoners.

The above elements of her personal psychological make-up seem to me to define the nature of the book more than her political persuasions, whatever they may have been. The same deviant eroticism pervades her description of the blood-taking scene; the comparison with the Dracula legends, with their strong erotic overtones, is quite apt.

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#12

Post by Helly Angel » 22 Oct 2005, 19:13

Sorry, which is the relation between Giselle Perl and Olga Lengyel?

TIA,

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#13

Post by David Thompson » 22 Oct 2005, 23:30

Let's get the blood transfusion issue, which started this thread, out of the way before introducing side issues. Did it happen, or was Dr. Perl "mythologizing," as robota put it.

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Kissa
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Re: Trust me: I'm a doctor. The Memoirs of Gisella Perl.

#14

Post by Kissa » 22 Oct 2005, 23:36

...
Last edited by Kissa on 21 Apr 2006, 18:19, edited 1 time in total.

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#15

Post by David Thompson » 22 Oct 2005, 23:59

The topics on radiation experiments now have a thread of their own at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=88501

Please post comments on that subject to the new thread.

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