Hiroshima and Nagasaki... warcrimes?

[Scott Smith]

I would never advocate punishing the innocent.

"Punishing", Mr. Smith?

For what?

Perhaps for being the enemy, my dear boy.

[Marcus Wendel]

Scott & Roberto,

Please stick to discussing the topic at hand, rather constantly try to attack and provoke each other.

/Marcus

[Roberto]

I would never advocate punishing the innocent.

"Punishing", Mr. Smith?

For what?

Perhaps for being the enemy, my dear boy.

The above requires no comment, as it says more about the mind of Smith than I possibly could.

[POW]

Well that is your opinion, I happen to disagree with it. Hindsight is 20/20.

As less I discuss with a holocoust denier as less I'll discuss with you any further. Over and out.

[Caldric]

Well that is your opinion, I happen to disagree with it. Hindsight is 20/20.

As less I discuss with a holocoust denier as less I'll discuss with you any further. Over and out.

Good, because you have no patience with anyone that does not instantly agree with your position. And this is the second time you said that. Sorry my arguments do not fit into your world view and limited vision to see things other then how you already have preconceived them. If you do not like what I write then look at Xanthros excellent post on the subject, his intelligent and deductive comments on the subject of Nagasaki and Hiroshima are some of the best I have ever read.

Sorry to see your position as such.

[witness]

I definitely agree. But is it your opinion that the Germans had no grievances against the Jews whatever?

I don't think that the Germans had some sort of grievances with the Jews.
I do think however that the Nazis did.
Let's count these "grievances"
1. Accusation that the Jews ( note the entire people ) wielded some superpowever over the world.
What power ? Probably financial and political.
Interesting though that the Jews being so "powerful" were not able to convince one single goverment in at least one single country to accept the Jews persecuted in the Nazi Germany. How come ?
Let us look at the alleged Jewish financial power. If it is the reason for the Nazis "grievances'' with the Jews than it becomes nothing more than some kind of a "class struggle ". Was the National Socialism about the
"Class struggle "? No it was not. Nazis targeted all Jews from a poorest
shoemaker to a banker. So it was not the reason and the grievance than.
2.Religious accusations - the Jews crucified Christ.Is it the Nazis grievance ? I don't think so .First of all the Romans crucified Christ with the Jewish assistance ( I don't remember that Nazis had any problems with the Italians on this grounds ). And secondly Nazis were essentially
non -religiuos or even anti-religious in some examples.
3.And last but not the least- the racial motivation - the Jews as an inferior race. However this would pretty much contradict the first point.
How the Jewish inferiority might be reconciled with their alleged omnipotence ? Not very logical.
Inferiority implies weakness as far as I understand this notion.
Were the Jews weak ? Was their weakness the Nazis grievance ?
I think you understand that this is nonsense.

So Scott I think I answered your question as I could .
Now tell me what were those "grievances" you are talking about ?

[Wolffen]

I read this article on a news group

Don’t know if this correct but read that the real reason for the Final Solution was economic reasons and the hate thing was an excuse for it. Because the Jews had all the wealth of the Germany n there hands and did not what to give it to Hitler (he needed $ for war) so he made this master race think up as an excuse to take there $ cos he could not take it any other way. And it was easy to make Germans hate Jews because Germans were starving and Jews did not what to help then and just were interested in personal gain so people resented them. Also it is said that rich Jews held 80-90% of all wealth in pre ww2 Germany. That why they hated the entire Jews regardless if there were poor or rich. Because of the stereotype that all Jews are greedy and stingy. The stereotype lead to all that hate

Is this stuff true I dunno some of you historian guys should know?

In the same article the guy argued
It could be argued the a-bomb is not that far away form the Nazi camps in principle. Because there was racial hatred toward the Japonais best should in Disney’s cartoons depicting Japonica and rice picking midgets with beg teeth

[Scott Smith]

So Scott I think I answered your question as I could .
Now tell me what were those "grievances" you are talking about ?

Witness, thanks for your response. I agree that the International Jewish Conspiracy-thing was a Nazi and not a German idea. However, I think it is wrong to say that the Germans did not have grievances with the Jews. As to what these grievances were, they are not my grievances, you understand. However, I think it is very politically-incorrect to state it today, so these contemporaneous views have understandably fallen into the Memory Hole. As I have repeatedly said, stripping Jews of their citizenship and depriving them of their civil rights went too far, IMHO. But to say that the Jews were unjustly treated is not to say that the Germans did not have grievances against the Jews. Some elderly German-American Jews have admitted to me that they felt that the Germans did have some very legitimate grievances against the Jews (and vice-versa of course).

Best Regards,
Scott

[witness]

. However, I think it is wrong to say that the Germans did not have grievances with the Jews. As to what these grievances were, they are not my grievances, you understand. However, I think it is very politically-incorrect to state it today, so these contemporaneous views have understandably fallen into the Memory Hole.

Scott . Didn 't you asked me this question:

But is it your opinion that the Germans had no grievances against the Jews whatever?

I answered .
Now you are avoiding to elaborate what by your opinions those grievances were, using the "polically-incorrect " expression as an excuse.
Then what was the goal of your guestion ?

Some elderly German-American Jews have admitted to me that they felt that the Germans did have some very legitimate grievances against the Jews (and vice-versa of course).

So if those ''elderly German-American Jews " were able to admitt those
"legitimate grievances " why you could not ?
I'll tell you why - just because the grievances ( you had been told about
by your German-American Jews )are the same which I mentioned in my previous post. Are not they ?

[Scott Smith]

However, I think it is wrong to say that the Germans did not have grievances with the Jews. As to what these grievances were, they are not my grievances, you understand. However, I think it is very politically-incorrect to state it today, so these contemporaneous views have understandably fallen into the Memory Hole.

Scott . Didn 't you asked me this question:

But is it your opinion that the Germans had no grievances against the Jews whatever?

I answered .

Now you are avoiding to elaborate what by your opinions those grievances were, using the "polically-incorrect " expression as an excuse.

Then what was the goal of your guestion ?

I wanted to elicit your opinion. Thank you.

Some elderly German-American Jews have admitted to me that they felt that the Germans did have some very legitimate grievances against the Jews (and vice-versa of course).

So if those ''elderly German-American Jews " were able to admitt those
"legitimate grievances " why you could not ?

They are their petty conflicts, not mine. This does not make these views unreal for the historian to simply ignore, however. And besides, if I were to try to catalog them I would probably be dubbed anti-Semitic. But I was impressed, nonetheless, by the apparent willingness of the Jews whom I spoke with to soberly admit that their people had made some "nationalistic mistakes" (for lack of a better term) of their own.

I'll tell you why - just because the grievances ( you had been told about by your German-American Jews )are the same which I mentioned in my previous post. Are not they ?

No, they were related to individual behavior and group stereotypes, not NS conspiracy-theory. There was also some resentment as well--for example, the percentage of Jews in journalism, law, medicine, and other professions when the job market was tight. National Socialism was essentially a lower-middle class movement, and throwing "aliens" out of government and academia was certainly popular also with ordinary Germans (although they are not going to admit this today). The subject is very complicated, to say the least. But we do have to consider the notion of longstanding grievances and motives in any question of Victimology. For example, Mr. Bush's summation of the 9/11 attack as being "they hate us 'cause we're free" is about as mentally constipating an answer as one could ever imagine. Fortunately, most historians display a little more depth.

Best Regards,
Scott

[Roberto]

Some elderly German-American Jews have admitted to me that they felt that the Germans did have some very legitimate grievances against the Jews (and vice-versa of course).

From what I know of Smith, I wouldn't be surprised if those "elderly German-American Jews" existed only in his own mind.

But tell us, what exactly did those "elderly German-American Jews" tell you?

They are their petty conflicts, not mine. This does not make these views unreal for the historian to simply ignore, however.

By the standards of Mr. Smith, a historian must consider any crackpot's paranoia a "legitimate grievance", right?

But I was impressed, nonetheless, by the apparent willingness of the Jews whom I spoke with to soberly admit that their people had made some "nationalistic mistakes" (for lack of a better term) of their own.

Eagerly waiting for what those "elderly German-American Jews" are supposed to have "admitted" to you were "some very legitimate grievances" that non-Jewish Germans had against "the Jews", as I said.

[Roberto]

I read this article on a news group

Don’t know if this correct but read that the real reason for the Final Solution was economic reasons and the hate thing was an excuse for it. Because the Jews had all the wealth of the Germany n there hands and did not what to give it to Hitler (he needed $ for war) so he made this master race think up as an excuse to take there $ cos he could not take it any other way. And it was easy to make Germans hate Jews because Germans were starving and Jews did not what to help then and just were interested in personal gain so people resented them. Also it is said that rich Jews held 80-90% of all wealth in pre ww2 Germany. That why they hated the entire Jews regardless if there were poor or rich. Because of the stereotype that all Jews are greedy and stingy. The stereotype lead to all that hate

Is this stuff true I dunno some of you historian guys should know?

I'm not a historian, but I think the following article might be of interest.

Jews in German Economy
“They own the veins of money, banks and trade”, said the Berlin court preacher, Adolf Stoecker, in his first anti-Semitic speech in 1879. From Stoecker via Hitler to today’s extreme right the question of the “domination” of the economy by the Jews was a central part of anti-Semitic propaganda. The message conveyed was that economy was unilaterally controlled by the Jewish minority, thus feeding the popular image of the rich, usurious Jew. The concentration of Jewish economic activity in a few especially publicized or crisis-prone sectors of the economy – like the textiles industry – provided an excellent platform for such prejudice.
In fact Jews “dominated” only a few rather insignificant special branches in the Weimar Republic: more than half of all cattle-trading firms were Jewish-owned. Jews were also strongly represented in the confection and shoe manufacture branches and in some sectors of the metal trading, electrical, chemical and porcelain industries. The Jewish participation in heavy industry, on the other hand, only made up a small percentage. Anti-Semitic agitation focused on the – in relation to the population as a whole – over-proportional role that Jews played in the areas of shopping house companies and private banks. Most shopping houses – Tietz, Wertheim, Israel, Schocken – were founded by Jews and at least at the beginning financed by Jewish banks. The low prices of their merchandise naturally met the resistance of small traders and retailers, which blew up to a general hatred of “the Jews”. The fact that Jewish small traders and retailers were also and especially affected by these huge companies was not taken into account.
Due to the increasing urbanization of German Jewry – in 1900 about 48 per cent of the Jews lived in cities with more than 100 000 inhabitants, in 1925 it was about 67 per cent – more Jewish businessmen had settled in the cities and founded own shops. Although in the sequence of emancipation the age-old prohibition of Jews owning real estate and their exclusion from agrarian industry and public service were abolished, the professional conversion of the Jews happened only gradually. Small businesses and trade, on which they had necessarily specialized, remained the most important sectors of Jewish economy. Yet gradually a rise from lower to upper middle class had occurred. Industrialization and the creation of huge trading companies threatened this Jewish middle class as much as they did the non-Jewish population.
The economic crisis commencing in 1929, from which Jews suffered no less than non-Jews, hit the middle-class Jewish businesses and small traders especially hard. Corruption scandals of Jewish traders and businessmen and (alleged) gigantic profits of “Jewry” at the time of the inflation were blown up by anti-Semitic propaganda. Where in individual cases they corresponded to facts, those involved where the eastern Jews who had immigrated after the First World War, who had always been subject to anti-Semitic pressure and were thus prone to engage in fast, risky deals. These outgrowths of a crisis situation were thus a sociological, not a specifically Jewish problem.
The economical crisis accelerated the already existing tendency of Jews to withdraw from economic life. Jewish traders and banks were reluctant about the development towards huge companies and trusts. Their rather “conservative” thinking in economic matters, preferring an individual configuration of trade and economy to the creation of positions of great economic power, ran contrary to these new forms of economy. The consequence hereof was a marked reorientation towards other professional branches, namely science and the free academic professions – doctors, lawyers – and also significantly towards the public service. This was an expression not only of a counter-movement to reduced margins for entrepreneurial initiative, but also of an assimilation to the general population – especially the middle class – and its professional structures.
One phenomenon in this context was the backward development of Jewish private banks, which had already lost in significance since 1896/97 just like the non-Jewish ones. Originally an unchallenged Jewish domain, the proportion of Jews employed in banking and at the stock exchange went back from 21.9 per cent in 1882 to 3.8 per cent in 1925, and until 1933 their share went down to 2 per cent. At the same time the participation of Jews in leading positions of banking decreased by one third, and the number of Jewish private banks went down from 1225 to 485. This was due not only to the professional re-conversion, but also to the reduction of the Jewish population resulting from emigration and a low birth rate. There further must be taken into account the rise of huge joint stock company banks which swallowed the small private banks. The Jewish part of the directors and heads of department employed by the former thus rose from 2558 in 1897 to 3179 in 1907; many former private bankers became employees of these huge banks.
The trading professions with their over-proportional share of Jews were in the spotlight of the public, but of little significance in what concerns their influence on the economy. The group that populist propaganda called “Jewish High Finance” was made up of no more than a hundred families, which furthermore had mostly turned away from Jewry generations ago and didn’t even adhere to the Jewish religion anymore. While in relation to the general population these families made up a higher proportion of the German economy, this doesn’t mean that there was an over-proportional “Jewish influence”, for the individual families and enterprises had no closer relationship among each other than with other business partners and engaged in capitalist competition with each other as with other competitors.

I translated the above from an article by Juliane Wetzel published in Wolfgang Benz et al, Legenden, Lügen, Vorurteile, 1992 dtv Munich, pages 105/106.

Coming up next: Jews in German Culture and Society

[Daniel L]

It's strange that no one has yet made a comment about my post...

regards

[Roberto]

It's strange that no one has yet made a comment about my post...

regards

I guess that's because the thread has become wildly mixed up.

It would be a good idea if our host took out the posts related to "the Jews" and transferred them to a new thread.

[Caldric]

It's strange that no one has yet made a comment about my post...

regards

It is incorrect. But if I said that I would never change your opinion on the subject and I was already debating the same thing somewhere else on the same topic.

There were not talks between the US and Japan on peace, they just kept saying no.

The UK did not have a say in the use of the bombs.

etc. etc.