This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations, as well as the First and Second World Wars in general hosted by Marcus Wendel's Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research and Christoph Awender's WW2 day by day.
"So you basically agree with the murderous crimes committed against ethnic Germans."
Please take some time to think over that concept, because your bias has clearly clouded your perspective.
On the other hand, I don't understand why Germany started that kind of a war.I just don't. Do you?
But, his post represents a curious trend of many contributors. A feeling that somehow the Allies did not quite play fair in winning WW2. That man for man (tank for tank/plane for plane) the German soldier was "better" than his British/US/Soviet opponent and that Germany somehow "deserved" to win.
Without question the German soldier often fought far better than his opponents. On occasion they performed superb operations. We all know the list of these brave/motivated/without peer soldiers. But, dwelling on the military and operational history of WW2 Germany misses, I think, the point.
The major opponents of Germany (Britain/USA/USSR) right from the start fought a Total War. While Germany planned on a few panzer divisions and a few Waffen SS units, their opponents were planning to defeat and hopefully destroy Germany right from the start. A classic example is Britain, where as soon as war was declared most women became liable for conscription. So, by 1940, these women were producing the bombers that were to devastate germany in the years ahead. Germany in 1940 was assuming that the war would be over by Christmas, Britain was planning heavy bomber operations.
And with Total War, in the British/US/USSR way, comes an acceptance of all necessary means to secure victory. The Allies had politicians and soldiers who quite accepted that the only way to defeat germany was to do it totally...after all look what compromise did in 1918.
Civilians get killed in wars, often very large numbers, it is what happens. The "ethnic cleansing" of areas is a quite established phenomena and always appalling. But, if you start a fight, you should be able to finish it.
Any and all German military successes on any front during 1944 and 1945 were a complete waste. None made any real difference. While some may find it important that some WSS unit destroyed umpteen British tanks at some battle in 1944; the lesson of, say, the defeat of Operation Goodwood, was that it didn't matter, that the WSS were better soldiers was of no consequence. The Allies were fighting an industrialised war and could replace losses quite easily.
What arguments did I ignore? What facts?
the full quote appears on the same friggin page
Like many Germans on this forum, you've got this funny habit (not funny as in "ha, ha" but funny as in strange) of saying I should shut up about German war crimes because the allies were just as bad.
See, that's exactly the same way I feel about German war crimes. It upsets me, just as well as Polish, Czech, Russian or Japanese war crimes upset me.I'm upset every time someone gives an account of Polish war crimes, and there have been many instances of that in the Polish press of late.
See what I'm getting at? We're here to study history, make some sense of it, and to hopefully learn from past mistakes. But what you seem to be saying is: lets forget all the reasons why all this shit went down, just agree that the allies were also bad, and leave it at that.
kelty90 wrote:And with Total War, in the British/US/USSR way, comes an acceptance of all necessary means to secure victory.
kelty90 wrote:...if you start a fight, you should be able to finish it.
kelty90 wrote:If a country starts a war it should be prepared to finish it without complaining about the opposition that they provoked.
kelty90 wrote:You do not win as many wars as the British have by not fighting to the best of your ability, and that means hard and uncompromisingly.
admfisher wrote:Maybe the reason for clearing the people from the occupied lands was part of the German Living Room.
When you need space you dont want the old owners hanging around waiting for there day to take it back.
kelty90 wrote:But, all of the civilians who died during WW2 in Europe have Hitler and his regime to blame.
General Anders wrote:And let me just add, that the Nazi leadership shares as much responsibilty for the deaths and hardship of eastern Germans, as the Soviets, Poles, Czechs and others who perpetrated those crimes.
General Anders wrote:This, my befuddled Teutonic chum, is the essence of my argument. Of course you can't make sense of the Nazi motives for starting that kind of a war, no civilized person (which is what I take you for) can.
David wrote:In fact, I'm sure they'd get a lot of help from Poles against the Bolsheviks. So tell me, why the Nazis choose to go along that path?
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