Auschwitz's chimneys belching smoke and flame.

[robota]

One of the more curious features of much eyewitness testimony regarding Kremas at Auschwitz/Birkenau is the claim that is often encountered that flames were continually coming out of the chimneys. Given the fact that ovens were invariably located some distance from the chimney stack this seems unlikely.

As far as I am aware there is only one photo of a KZ Krema actually in action and this is from Dachau.


from
http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/e ... ame/vr.htm

From this photo, combined with the similar layouts of the ovens vis-a-vis the chimney stack it appears that flames literally appearing out the chimney (cf the famous illustration by David Olere) is rather unlikely.

The caption of the photo:

Illegal shot of the crematorium with smoking chimney
This secretly taken photo by the Belgian prisoner Jean Brichaux from the summer of 1944 is the only surviving shot of the crematorium facility taken during the existence of the concentration camp.

The photo shows the smoking chimney of the crematorium ovens and is thus the obvious proof for an operating crematorium.

I believe this is partly directed at persistant local belief amongst small sections of the population that the crematorium was built by the Americans.

Would it be reasonable to suggest that the accounts of flames emerging from chimneys at Auschwitz/Birkenau is more a symptom of the traumatic nature of the events witnessed rather than an actual physical occurance?

[David Thompson]

robota -- You remarked:

One of the more curious features of much eyewitness testimony regarding Kremas at Auschwitz/Birkenau is the claim that is often encountered that flames were continually coming out of the chimneys. Given the fact that ovens were invariably located some distance from the chimney stack this seems unlikely.

Ignition of sooty deposits which collect toward the top of chimneys is a frequent cause of roof fires in cities, towns and villages. The flames which cause the fires do not come directly from the hearth, but result from the sooty deposits toward the top of the chimney being ignited by superheated air. This effect is commonplace in chimneys which are not regularly cleaned. For that reason I don't think that the witness testimony about flames coming out of the Krema chimneys is either curious or unlikely.

[robota]

Ignition of sooty deposits which collect toward the top of chimneys is a frequent cause of roof fires in cities, towns and villages.

Having lived much of life in houses with open fires I can assure you "frequent" is probably the wrong word to use. Or put it bluntly I have never had one or known anyone else who had one.

Also I understand crematorium ovens which are equipped with afterburners - as was standard at this time - emit far less soot than an open fire.

[David Thompson]

robota -- You said, as to chimney flare being a frequent cause of roof fires:

Having lived much of life in houses with open fires I can assure you "frequent" is probably the wrong word to use. Or put it bluntly I have never had one or known anyone else who had one.

Working with insurance claims or local fire departments in the US would give you a different perspective. It certainly occurs often enough to support a chimney-cleaning industry. In any event, the question is whether chimney flare occurs often enough to be witnessed, whether or not a roof fire results. Having seen my own chimney flare up, as well as chimneys elsewhere, I don't think the effect is particularly remarkable -- except to remark that it's a sign that the chimney needs cleaning.

Two posts which by robota which did not deal with chimney flare at KL Auschwitz-Birkenau, but which raised questions about stripes on a Krema chimney at KL Dachau, now have a thread of their own, at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=97226

[alf]

robota -- You said, as to chimney flare being a frequent cause of roof fires:

Having lived much of life in houses with open fires I can assure you "frequent" is probably the wrong word to use. Or put it bluntly I have never had one or known anyone else who had one.

Working with insurance claims or local fire departments in the US would give you a different perspective. It certainly occurs often enough to support a chimney-cleaning industry. In any event, the question is whether chimney flare occurs often enough to be witnessed, whether or not a roof fire results. Having seen my own chimney flare up, as well as chimneys elsewhere, I don't think the effect is particularly remarkable -- except to remark that it's a sign that the chimney needs cleaning.

http://www.csia.org/

http://www.nsc.ie/FireSafety/AdviceandG ... imneyFire/

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/5017.html

In 1982, wood-burning appliances accounted for more fires, more fire deaths, and greater property damage than any other kind of heating fuel -- about 140,000 fires, 250 deaths and $257 million in property damage. These losses represented 20 percent of all residential fires in the U.S., 5 percent of all fire deaths, and 8 percent of estimated property damage.

CPSC research indicates that most wood heating fires involve the chimney and not the appliance itself. The majority of these fires are contained within the chimney and cause no damage to the house. The Commission is concerned, however, not only about the chimney fires that did ignite other parts of the house, but also about the potential future hazard from the continued use of chimneys whose structural integrity has been compromised by a chimney fire. This is especially true in light of the fact that many contained chimney fires are not reported to the fire services; in fact, consumers may not even be aware that a chimney fire has occurred

So the point made by David is backed up by a number of US Govt Agencies.

[Sergey Romanov]

From this photo, combined with the similar layouts of the ovens vis-a-vis the chimney stack it appears that flames literally appearing out the chimney (cf the famous illustration by David Olere) is rather unlikely.

Usual non sequitur from denier robota.

I suggest (s)he read http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/1/Mattogno73-78.html

[gaussianum]

I think it's completely different, to have flames occasionally flaring up, and having flames burning continuously. What exactly do the eyewitnesses say: is it occasional or continuous?

Are there any photographs of modern chimneys belching fire?

[sallyg]

I think it's completely different, to have flames occasionally flaring up, and having flames burning continuously. What exactly do the eyewitnesses say: is it occasional or continuous?

Are there any photographs of modern chimneys belching fire?

Well, on the 2 occasions I've had chimney fires grabbing a camera was not priority #1.



http://www.stovesplus.com/hypercart/gallerycatalog.asp

[gaussianum]

Thanks for the photo, SallyG

Did your chimney fires look like that? That looks violent...!

Cheers

[sallyg]

Thanks for the photo, SallyG

Did your chimney fires look like that? That looks violent...!

Cheers

The sound is worse. It sounds like a huge blowtorch.

[gaussianum]

In the general area of my district's hospital, there's a crematorium for medical waste. I see it every day, but I have never seen fire belching from it though, just large plumes of smoke. Not that it proves anything.

[michael mills]

Also I understand crematorium ovens which are equipped with afterburners - as was standard at this time - emit far less soot than an open fire.

I think the Birkenau crematoria were not fitted with afterburners, so as to reduce the cost of construction. That would have resulted in more smoke being emitted than in a normal civilian crematorium.

It may be that the emission of flame was something that happened from time to time, when sooty deposits had built up, perhaps after a period of continuous use when a large number of corpses was being cremated.

The crematoria had plenty of downtime, so they could be regularly cleaned. Excessive use of the furnaces, resulting in damage that led to the temporary closing of Crematorium II and the permanent decommissioning of Crematorium IV, occurred in the first period of their operation, in the middle of 1943. Thereafter, it appears that the crematoria were operated more in accordance with the guidelines, with time for regular cleaning and maintenance.

The phenomenon of flames leaping from the chimneys must have been a relatively rare occurrence, perhaps confined to the initial period of operation, which nevertheless made an impression on observers and was generalised into a more frequent occurrence than it actually was.

[robota]

I think the Birkenau crematoria were not fitted with afterburners, so as to reduce the cost of construction.

From reading Topf and others patent it appears to me that afterburners were standard - ie there were no crema ovens designed without them.

(I should add when referring to patents I refer to solely to patents that were actually granted and can be found via public registers and not anything that has appeared out of the Auschwitz museum).

Of course the question could easily be solved by reference to an actual Birkenau oven. I understand the many of the Birkenau ovens were evacuated to Gross-Rosen. Have they been preserved since?

So it seems there is a general feeling that Birkenau was in a constant state of chimney fires and this explains the eye-witness testimony rather than any possible unreliability of the testimony itself?



The Dachau crematorium (see first photo in thread) was very tame in comparision!

[David Thompson]

robota -- You wrote:

So it seems there is a general feeling that Birkenau was in a constant state of chimney fires and this explains the eye-witness testimony rather than any possible unreliability of the testimony itself?

I don't think that seeing chimney flare is unusual, nor does it indicate that a statement that someone saw a chimney flare is unreliable. I don't think anyone has yet suggested "that Birkenau was in a constant state of chimney fires." If you have sourced material on the afterburners you think may have been installed at KL Auschwitz-Birkenau, please present it.

[robota]

I don't think that seeing chimney flare is unusual

As you have said, although the only person who claims to have seen one is SallyG.

And while needing no disrespect to this member she also claims to see railroad sleepers in photos where others cannot and be able to accurately diagnose other people's GPR scans despite never having visited the site in question or seen any other soil profiles from that area.

My only point that the only person here who claims to have seen chimney stack fires in a fashion that could be described as "usual" sometimes impresses me as a person who sometimes gets a little carried away in her historigraphical interpretations.

I would say chimney fires are unusual although not unheard of. I would say they are very unusual in furnaces, which unlike open house fires, are strickly regulated in terms of fuel and oxygen consumption for efficiency and are far removed from the chimney stack.