Auschwitz's chimneys belching smoke and flame.

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robota
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#46

Post by robota » 19 Mar 2006, 09:14

You see sally? We are not so different, you and I!

Sergey, in regard to flaming chimneys not being found in later accounts I suggest you read "We wept without tears", testimony of the Sonderkommando.

Long indepth interviews, very serious and very careful and very high quality testimony and I don't recall a single chimney fire or flaming chimney for that matter either.

If there had been chimney fires - which are actually quite dangerous and likely to causing chimneys to crack or even collapse - the Sonderkommando would have been the first to know of it. Their silence is informative.

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Sergey Romanov
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#47

Post by Sergey Romanov » 19 Mar 2006, 12:49

So, in the end robota failed to back its assertions with facts.

Auschwitz chimneys were belching flames and smoke.


robota
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#48

Post by robota » 20 Mar 2006, 07:13

So, in the end robota failed to back its assertions with facts.
Which particular assertion do you believe has not been backed up.
Auschwitz chimneys were belching flames and smoke.
Yes but only in sensationalist memoir literature. More thoughtful testimony, more considered testimony and the bauwerk archive do not mention this happening.

Nor are the sensationalist memoir accounts consitent with a description of a chimney fire, an unusual and dangerous event that would require shut down of the crematorium, rather they purport to describe an aspect of normal operation of the crematorium.

This is obviously not correct and so such sensationalist testimony seems suspect.

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#49

Post by David Thompson » 20 Mar 2006, 07:26

robota -- See http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 638#868638

This claim:
Nor are the sensationalist memoir accounts consitent with a description of a chimney fire, an unusual and dangerous event that would require shut down of the crematorium, rather they purport to describe an aspect of normal operation of the crematorium.
merely repeats your unsourced conclusion, and is now redundant as well.

robota
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#50

Post by robota » 20 Mar 2006, 07:31

errr - which part do you want sourced?

That chimney fires are dangerous and are not compatible with normal running of a crematorium, would require immediate action of fire-fighters to extinguish the blaze and would require the furnaces to be shut down while this took place.

Or that the accounts of flaming chimneys make no reference to chimney fires rather to something that was part of its normal operation.

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Sergey Romanov
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#51

Post by Sergey Romanov » 20 Mar 2006, 07:36

Denier wrote:
Which particular assertion do you believe has not been backed up.
Here they are:
the claim that is often encountered
accounts of flames emerging from chimneys at Auschwitz/Birkenau is more a symptom of the traumatic nature of the events witnessed rather than an actual physical occurance
There is absolutely no positive evidence of a single chimney fire at a crematorium at Auschwitz, Birkenau or any other KZ camp.
There is not a single eyewitness account of a chimney fire.
For some reason flaming chimneys have become quite unpopular in survivor testimony since the 1980s.
Auschwitz chimneys were belching flames and smoke.

Yes but only in sensationalist memoir literature.

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#52

Post by David Thompson » 20 Mar 2006, 07:47

robota -- You asked:
errr - which part do you want sourced?
See http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 638#868638 , referenced in the first sentence of the post to which you're responding.

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#53

Post by robota » 20 Mar 2006, 07:53

the claim that is often encountered
I have provided one example. I can provide plenty more if you doubt this. However, I don't think you do, rather you are just engaging in a debating tactic.

accounts of flames emerging from chimneys at Auschwitz/Birkenau is more a symptom of the traumatic nature of the events witnessed rather than an actual physical occurance
This was an interpretation based on the assumption that the design of the furnace would not allow flames to travel from it to the mouth of the chimney. An alternative suggestion was perhaps Birkenau suffered from a plague of soot based chimney fires.
There is absolutely no positive evidence of a single chimney fire at a crematorium at Auschwitz, Birkenau or any other KZ camp.
Certainly I have never come across one. However one can not prove a negative. If you have an account that clearly and unmistably describes a chimney fire I would invite you to share it.
There is not a single eyewitness account of a chimney fire.
See above, all the accounts I have seen are supposed to describe a repeated event, an aspect of normal operation, indicative only of how hard and fast the crematoria were being operated, not a failure of equipment.
For some reason flaming chimneys have become quite unpopular in survivor testimony since the 1980s.
Cf. the Sonderkommando testimony. I also made some observations about early testimony being far more sensationalist then you will find published today. These are subjective judgements, but fair I believe.

Is there anything else I can assist you with?

My thesis could be undermined by a single bona-fide account of a chimney fire - although this would hardly explain the prevalence of the accounts of flaming chimneys.

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Sergey Romanov
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#54

Post by Sergey Romanov » 20 Mar 2006, 08:37

I can provide plenty more if you doubt this.
Please do.
accounts of flames emerging from chimneys at Auschwitz/Birkenau is more a symptom of the traumatic nature of the events witnessed rather than an actual physical occurance
This was an interpretation based on the assumption that the design of the furnace would not allow flames to travel from it to the mouth of the chimney. An alternative suggestion was perhaps Birkenau suffered from a plague of soot based chimney fires.
Since the flames can belch from the chimneys as a result of soot/creosote build-up, this interpretation was wrong from the start.
There is absolutely no positive evidence of a single chimney fire at a crematorium at Auschwitz, Birkenau or any other KZ camp.

Certainly I have never come across one. However one can not prove a negative. If you have an account that clearly and unmistably describes a chimney fire I would invite you to share it.
All the testimonies about chimneys belching flames. One down, two to go.
There is not a single eyewitness account of a chimney fire.
See above, all the accounts I have seen are supposed to describe a repeated event, an aspect of normal operation, indicative only of how hard and fast the crematoria were being operated, not a failure of equipment.
Accounts describe flames from the chimneys. There is nothing to suggest that it was improbable, therefore it happened. Whatever interpretations were adduced by the witnesses as to the cause of the flames are irrelevant.
For some reason flaming chimneys have become quite unpopular in survivor testimony since the 1980s.
Cf. the Sonderkommando testimony.
Non sequitur. To prove this claim you will have to take a statistically significant chunk of testimonies and compare the periods.

So, all the claims are still unfounded. Auschwitz chimneys belched smoke and flames.

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#55

Post by Pieter Kuiper » 02 Dec 2006, 23:26

The glow from the crematorium chimneys was rather constant, according to witnesses.
Their descriptions do not fit an occasional chimney fire.
Here is an early mention in a Polish resistance report from July 1943:
Recently three large crematoria were constructed with a cremating capacity of 10,000 people daily operating non-stop. In the parlance of the local population they were referred to as the "Eternal flame".


It was probably similar to what could be seen at an incinerator in London (source):
On July 1st 1944, a V1 Flying Bomb hit the Corporation Refuse Destructor chimney near Kentons Lane [now Greenacres, Ed.] ... The destructor was not in use during the war because the red glow from the chimney would have been unacceptable during the blackout.

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Re: Auschwitz's chimneys belching smoke and flame.

#56

Post by Keir » 14 Mar 2015, 19:34

I took my students to Dachau this week and took a comparison shot of the crematorium from the perspective of Jean Brichaux; the link earlier provided in this thread has been removed. I have been informed that the authorities (who had to be stopped from destroying the site in 1955) had shortened the chimney out of safety concerns.
http://www.tracesofevil.com/search/label/Dachau
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Paul Lantos
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Re: Auschwitz's chimneys belching smoke and flame.

#57

Post by Paul Lantos » 16 Mar 2015, 03:11

I hate to sound anti-intellectual, but who possibly cares if the chimneys belched flame or not? We KNOW that retrospective survivor testimony often has inaccuracies as compared with contemporaneous sources like diaries. So do we need this to make that point? I've read a whole book of testimony by Birkenau sonderkommando survivors, and while they mention cleaning duties I'm pretty sure none mentioned flames or mentioned cleaning the chimney.

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Re: Auschwitz's chimneys belching smoke and flame.

#58

Post by Jeff_36 » 16 Mar 2015, 03:20

I think that it occurred enough to be noteworthy, considering the activity level of the crematoriums at Auschwitz. Considering that it is a rather striking image, I believe that a number of survivors incorporated it into their testimony.

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Re: Auschwitz's chimneys belching smoke and flame.

#59

Post by ValterP » 16 Mar 2015, 15:42

Hello everyone,
Chimney fires are not that uncommon. If the chimney is not properly cleaned the built up soot can catch fire. Here in Denmark your stove and chimney must pass annual inspections and maintenance by a chimney sweep. I have an American Encore model 2550 with a catalytic combustor, so the amount of soot in the flue is drastically reduced by the ignition of smoke, but we still had to seal off an old cleaning door on the second floor during the last inspection because it was risky. A chimney fire is not very dangerous in its own, but if the flue is old and cracked or the roof is built from flammable materials it can start a house fire. Burning fuel with a lot of moisture like green wood can contribute to a creosote problem, causing the flue diameter to decrease and increasing the risk of chimney fires. I suppose this can be applied to flesh as well, because it is very moist. If a lot of creosote or soot is present in the flue, the flow of oxygen at high temperatures when the stove is opened to replenish fuel will cause ignition. The fire will last as long as there is soot and sufficient oxygen to feed it. It could be a matter of seconds or considerably longer.
This link shows a violent chimney fire in Århus. The house and chimney went undamaged, but it took a while to extinguish. It was before installing steps on your roof became compulsory, so the firefighters had trouble reaching the crown. You can tell the fire lasted a while. http://www.112-aarhus.dk/photogallery.php?album_id=987

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Re: Auschwitz's chimneys belching smoke and flame.

#60

Post by Brumbar » 17 Mar 2015, 01:50

Jeff_36 wrote:I think that it occurred enough to be noteworthy, considering the activity level of the crematoriums at Auschwitz. Considering that it is a rather striking image, I believe that a number of survivors incorporated it into their testimony.

The ability to "think" and "believe" are human qualities that separate us from those lower on the food chain. They don't however help us much here without providing some concrete evidence as to why one "thinks" or "believes" something is so.

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