Auschwitz's chimneys belching smoke and flame.

[AmYisroelChai]

Frankly this thread is moronic and does dishonor to the Forum, for so trivializing the Holocaust and demeaning its millions of victims at the hands of the Nazis and their henchmen. Mr. Wendel, take down this thread!

[Sergey Romanov]

It should be noted that flaming chimneys were testified about not only by victims, but also by bystanders and perpetrators.

[Mark Bahner]

Hi,

I've been thinking about this question for a day or so. My background is that I have a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering and a master's in environmental engineering, specializing in air pollution. I was involved back in the stone ages of the mid 1980s in design of municipal solid-waste-to-energy plants.

Here are some of the thoughts I've had:

1) Residential chimney fires are caused by creosote (tar) buildup in chimneys. Here's an excellent discussion of creosote:

https://www.highschimney.com/creosote-c ... education/

2) Residential chimney fires can result in extremely dramatic jets of flames out of residential chimneys:

https://sierranewsonline.com/chimney-fire-precautions/
https://flashpointequipment.com/project/chimney-fire/

3) Creosote buildup is caused by several conditions, including the burning of "green" wood (with high moisture content). Typically, one wants to burn firewood with a moisture content below 20 percent.

4) Bodies have extremely high moisture content. My guess for the people cremated in Auschwitz-Birkenau would be 52-60 percent.

5) Because of the extremely high moisture content, procedures like introducing many bodies at exactly the same time could be very problematic for increasing the water content of the flue gas and introducing vaporized but not completely burned human fats into the exhaust ducts and the chimney ath the crematoria. For example, Crematorium II had five 3-muffle furnaces, meaning that 15 bodies (or more) could be introduced simultaneously. Suppose a body took 45 minutes to cremate. It would be much preferred to introduce a body into a different muffle every three minutes, than 15 or more bodies at once. But I strongly suspect the Sonderkommando didn't much worry about such things.

6) It's possible the chimneys at Auschwitz-Birkenau were unlined. Another more likely possibility would be that they had clay tiles.

https://www.firenstone.com/chimney-liners/

Both situations are probably much more prone to chimney fires than, for example, a stainless steel liner (which almost certainly would not have been used, but which is common in the U.S. and other developed countries today).

7) Research in wildfires has shown that the real problem is firebrands--hot embers blown by the wind--that cause ignition of fires well beyond the wildfire. It seems to me very conceivable that burning coke could cause the same sort of problem...embers that are very hot, and land in grease from human fat.

8) Page 73 of Shlomo Venezia's "Inside the Gas Chambers: Eight Months in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz" details that attempts were made to run Crematorium III 24/7, but that a chimney problem caused a shutdown for two days. He provides the following account: "Just once we were forced to stop because of a problem in the chimney. Because they had overheated, some bricks had melted (sic!...what I think he really means is that structural integrity was compromised, because of failure of mortar, or something), which had obstructed the air passage. A young Polish Jews, covered in sacks to protect himself against the soot and heat, opened the base (the foundation) of the chimney so he could extract the bricks that were causing the problem. I noticed that the bricks were glistening, encrusted with human grease."

Shlomo Venezia's account (other than the "melted" bricks) seems very believable to me, especially the part about, "I noticed that the bricks were glistening, encrusted with human grease."

9) I've probably written too much already, but the bottom line: I think it's very like that there were multiple occasions when dramatic flames were observed in the chimneys of the crematoria, at various intervals. I think such flames could probably last many minutes. However, continuous flames seem very unlikely, because:

a) I don't see how there could be enough fuel source (human grease/fat, combined with coke fly ash) to maintain a chimney fire for hours, and
b) If flames were coming out of the chimney 24/7, I think the chimney would rapidly become severely damaged.

[wm]

Dramatic flames weren't a problem because they were still relatively small, and the nearest civilians living near the camp were kilometers away and wouldn't be able to see it.

But the pyres and pits used to burn bodies when the crematoria were insufficient were visible from tens of kilometers away. They were mostly responsible for the dramatic fires, which observed from far away were likely to be confused with chimneys.

[Mark Bahner]

Dramatic flames weren't a problem because they were still relatively small, and the nearest civilians living near the camp were kilometers away and wouldn't be able to see it.

But the pyres and pits used to burn bodies when the crematoria were insufficient were visible from tens of kilometers away. They were mostly responsible for the dramatic fires, which observed from far away were likely to be confused with chimneys.

It seems to me it would be very difficult to see the *flames* from the burn pits. As I understand it, the burn pits were surrounded by fences with material on them to prevent a direct view of the burn pits. I agree smoke would have been visible.

Here is a passage from the book, "A Lucky Child" by Thomas Buergenthal. He was a remarkably young child to have survived actually being in Birkenau and participating in the death march from Auschwitz. Unfortunately, Mr. Buergenthal died at 89 in May of this year, or we could ask him specifically about flames from the stacks:

From page 76 of his book:

The air in Auschwitz always smelled foul because of the smoke that came out of the crematorium chimneys. The odor and smoke was strongest with every new transport, because the people who could not pass the initial selection process on the platform were immediately herded into the gas chambers. Whenever the crematoriums were being operated at night, the sky above them would take on a reddish brown color.

Again, it would be wonderful to have Mr. Buergenthal to explain those sentences. It seems to me that there are many possibilities:

1) Perhaps he could never directly see the actual outlet of the stacks during the night,
2) Perhaps the what he thought was attributable to the crematoria was actually attributable to burn pits (some of which were fairly close to crematoria IV and V),
3) Perhaps the "orange and brown" was lighting from some other source than fire, reflecting off of smoke from the chimneys (or burn pits).

In any case, he was a remarkable boy and man, and the world is a poorer place for him having left it in May of this year.

[wm]

I've tried to find anything about the stench in a few (quality) works, and it seems, nothing there. The problem with memoirs written (much) later is that people misremember things massively.

Crematoria are usually designed not to produce any smell, foul smoke, or even ordinary smoke.
Even more, such a smell would be highly counterproductive because it would alarm the next batch of people of what was going on.
And we know for a fact that in Auschwitz, the Nazis, almost always, were able to deceive people to the very end in this regard.
SS-Unterscharführer Pery Broad describes the procedure in his Reminiscences:

Grabner spoke to the Jews, who unsuspectingly awaited their fate,
"You will now bathe and be disinfected; we don't want any epidemics in the camp. Then you will be brought to your barracks, where you'll get some hot soup. You will be employed in accordance with your professional qualifications. Now undress and put your clothes in front of you on the ground."

They willingly followed these instructions, given them in a friendly, warmhearted voice. Some looked forward to the soup; others were glad that the nerve-racking uncertainty as to their immediate future was over and that their worst expectations were not realized. All felt relieved after their days full of anxiety.

It wouldn't be possible if the foul stench of burning bodies was in the air.
But the fact that the chimneys were damaged from overuse is mentioned frequently.

It seems to me it would be very difficult to see the *flames* from the burn pits. As I understand it, the burn pits were surrounded by fences with material on them to prevent a direct view of the burn pits. I agree smoke would have been visible.

Yes, but the entire territory was subjected to strict blackout, Auschwitz was part of one of the largest industrial centers in Europe.
The light was visible because, in total darkness, it reflected from air and clouds making people nervous - they couldn't understand why such a violation of rules (and sometimes a hanging offense) was allowed.

[Mark Bahner]

Accounts of the Soviets after Auschwitz-Birkenau liberation:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... z1Q7OsNW51

Horror after horror revealed itself - mounds of corpses; the children’s barracks, with just two survivors; warehouses stuffed with a million men’s suits and women’s dresses; the 18-inch layer of fat caking the inside of the chimneys.

If there was indeed an "18-inch layer of fat," I would expect it to be towards the bottom of the chimney, as the fat would run down the chimney when the system was fully heated. My other expectation is that the Russian troops did not take detailed measurements of the locations and actual thicknesses of any fat layers they saw.

But, in my mind, this is more evidence that chimney fires would indeed be possible at the crematoria in Birkenau.

[wm]

I wouldn't bother with such Soviet accounts; they were written or modified by professional propagandists.
In Auschwitz, the prisoners were all evacuated except people unsuitable for that. Patients of the (1200-bed) camp hospital, its doctors and nurses, and children (certainly not just two). The crematoria were dynamited.

Fat was the fuel that sustained the "operation" and made it efficient. Fat caking was as probable as diesel caking in the exhaust of a diesel engine.
Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum historians write in the multi-volume work "Auschwitz":

Seldom was this maximum capacity [8000 bodies], or even the design capacity [4000 bodies], actually needed.
...
Analysis of the number of people in Jewish transports, ... shows that with the exception of these large liquidation operations, the daily average of arrivals in Auschwitz rarely exceeded 1,000 persons per day in 1942-1944.

On November 1 or 2, 1944 [three months before liberation], Himmler ordered that killing by gas be halted.

The ovens, chimney, roof and all equipment were dismantled. Then holes were drilled in the walls so that dynamite could be inserted. The building was to be blown up.

So not only the chimneys didn't survive, there was more than enough time to destroy any evidence, but actually, the crematoria themselves usually weren't overloaded.

[Mark Bahner]

I wouldn't bother with such Soviet accounts; they were written or modified by professional propagandists.

Why would "professional propagandists" come up with 18 inches of human fat in a crematorium chimney?

Fat caking was as probable as diesel caking in the exhaust of a diesel engine.

Why do you think that? Why would human fat (combined with coke exhaust particles) behave like diesel engine particles, and not like, for example, creosote?

"The ovens, chimney, roof and all equipment were dismantled. Then holes were drilled in the walls so that dynamite could be inserted. The building was to be blown up."

The chimneys were dismantled brick by brick? Why weren't the chimneys dynamited? And did the "equipment" "dismantled" include all the ductwork from the crematorium ovens to the chimneys?

"So not only the chimneys didn't survive, there was more than enough time to destroy any evidence, but actually, the crematoria themselves usually weren't overloaded."

The chimneys didn't survive intact, but were all bricks in all the chimneys taken away? It seems more logical to me that they would simply be dynamited.

As far as "enough time to destroy any evidence," the Nazis apparently left *much* more incriminating evidence than 18 inches of fat in a crematorium chimney. They apparently left documents that included a bill for "gas tight windows" and asphalting of the "gas chamber floor" within the building where those "gas tight windows" were located.

And as far as, "they crematoria themselves usually weren't overloaded"...in a residential fireplace, it is actually low-load operation that leads to more creosote buildup. It seems to me this would also potentially be the case for human fat from the crematoria. Low load generally should mean lower temperatures and lower flue gas velocities in both the ductwork and the chimney.

[Mark Bahner]

It wouldn't be possible if the foul stench of burning bodies was in the air.

One account of a young girl prisoner was that the smell made her not want to eat. But she described the smell as "sweet."

Another account of a modern commercial human cremation facility that had odor problems, in the U.S. I think, described the smell as like "chocolate."

So I haven't seen it described as a "foul stench." Apparently, it's powerful. But perhaps it's not something someone fresh off of train filled with 100 people and a single bucket for a toilet would recognize as, "Oh, that's the smell of human bodies burning."

In fact, I've read more than one account expressing that it was good to get "fresh air" after being packed like sardines in the trains.

[wm]

Why do you think that? Why would human fat (combined with coke exhaust particles) behave like diesel engine particles, and not like, for example, creosote?

Diesel, coal, and fat are basically organic (so based on carbon) energy carriers. They produce CO2 when burned, and incomplete burning produces soot, not more diesel or fat.
To cake the chimney fat would have to be vaporized and then migrate to the chimney. But vaporized fat would ignite immediately and produce CO2, not more fat.


We don't know much about what happened there. The fact is everything was removed, and only traces of the ovens remained on the floor sometimes.
And we have a testimony of a SS-man, about a single crematorium:

The ovens, chimney, roof and all equipment were dismantled. Then holes were drilled in the walls so that dynamite could be inserted. The building was to be blown up.

That's all.


The ovens were removed not just to keep secret - after all, secrecy wasn't possible anymore but because in the last years of the war, everything was of value; everything was lacking in Germany. Fuel, wood, bricks.
So they took with them everything, including roofs and (presumably made from high-quality bricks) chimneys.


As to the propagandists, Soviet propaganda never concerned itself with truth; they lied all the time to achieve the desired effect.
And in fact, all parts of the sentence are false or huge exaggerations:
"mounds of corpses; the children’s barracks, with just two survivors; warehouses stuffed with a million men’s suits and women’s dresses; the 18-inch layer of fat caking the inside of the chimneys"


And the Germans didn't leave any documents. All the documents were preserved, at great risk, by members of the Underground.

[Mark Bahner]

"Diesel, coal, and fat are basically organic (so based on carbon) energy carriers. They produce CO2 when burned, and incomplete burning produces soot, not more diesel or fat. To cake the chimney fat would have to be vaporized and then migrate to the chimney. But vaporized fat would ignite immediately and produce CO2, not more fat."

No, I don't agree. Cremation doesn't involve squirting human fat into a fire. Nor does it involve burning diesel fuel (which contains *no* water) in a cylinder. Or burning coal (which also doesn't contain water). Cremation involves putting a body that's 50+ percent water (to begin with) into a very hot oven. Water is driven off, combined with oils and fat.

A closer approximation to cremation than burning diesel in an engine, or coal in a boiler, is what goes on when Burger King "flame broils" their burgers. Grease/fat are driven off. There are two differences between a crematorium and a Burger King:

1) The temperatures at a crematorium are much hotter for a much longer time as the flue gas travels up the stack, however
2) Burger King burgers don't have nearly as much water as a human body at the start of cremation.

And if you're wondering whether Burger King's have chimney fires from fat/grease condensing...they definitely do:

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/bu ... 5qlcJ82cI/

From that website:

Firefighters in Sugarcreek Township were called to a local Burger King after a fire broke out.

The fire happened just after 8 a.m. Tuesday at the Burger King in Sugarcreek Township.

The restaurant remains closed while repair work and safety checks are being completed.

Fire officials said a grease fire traveled up a vent pipe until the flames could be seen outside through the roof.

Firefighters said the flames barely touched any roofing material as it traveled up the vent pipe.Fire Chief Randy Pavlak said, “We actually only had to go around the vent pipe on the roof and make sure it is not on fire.” Employees evacuated the restaurant and watched as firefighters discovered that the flames only damaged a couple of roof membranes.

Pavlak said, “There’s so much grease built up in the hood vent system that it’s still smoldering. We’ve got to scrape all of that out of there, sort of like a chimney fire with creosote, only this is grease.”

And here is a Burger King exhaust gas vent fire that actually happened in my town (Durham, NC)...though I didn't see it:

https://abc11.com/fire-at-durham-burger ... s/1626987/

If you watch the video of that Durham, NC fat/grease fire, you can see the flames coming out.

[Mark Bahner]

On November 1 or 2, 1944 [three months before liberation], Himmler ordered that killing by gas be halted.

The ovens, chimney, roof and all equipment were dismantled. Then holes were drilled in the walls so that dynamite could be inserted. The building was to be blown up.

So not only the chimneys didn't survive, there was more than enough time to destroy any evidence, but actually, the crematoria themselves usually weren't overloaded.

An additional interesting note:

Per the aerial photographic evidence analyzed in this paper:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/44326391?r ... b_contents

THE HOLOCAUST REVISITED: A Retrospective Analysis of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Extermination Complex
Dino A. Brugioni, Robert G. Poirier
American Intelligence Journal, Vol. 2, No. 1 (Spring 1979), pp. 21-40 (20 pages)

...as late as 14 January 1945, the crematoria had not been *completely* destroyed.

From page 36:

On the 14 January 1945 imagery, evidence of final preparation for destruction may be underway.

So I don't agree "...there was more than enough time to destroy any evidence..."

[wm]

The crematoria should be compared to fry cutlets in a pan. It's unhelpful and wrong.
The temperature in the crematoria reached up to 1100 degrees Celsius, and it was uniform inside (thanks to the gas generator that supplied the fuel.)
What happened inside can't be judged by common sense or guessing. Only people who have practical experience with such temperatures can imagine what was going on there.
In my opinion, all organic matter was obliterated, and any smell (carried, as usual, by organic matter) was too.

[wm]

Actually, I was wrong. There are at least several testimonies of people who took part in the dismantling of the crematoria. They didn't notice anything unusual about the (enormous) chimneys.

Even more, we know as a fact how the chimneys looked inside.
Disregarding that people dismantling them didn't notice anything unusual, Filip Müller testified that during the Sonderkommando uprising, he:

In a flash I remembered a place where I would be safe from bullets: inside the flue leading from the ovens to the chimney.
I lifted one of the cast-iron covers, climbed down and closed the cover behind me. Inside the flue there was no room to stand upright; I stretched out trying to catch my breath. From outside I could still hear the rattle of machine-guns.
When after a while the shooting seemed to die down I crawled towards the chimney because I was able to stand up there.
As I glanced up I glimpsed, framed by the four soot-blackened chimney walls, a small square of deep blue sky.
Eyewitness Auschwitz by Filip Müller

Similarly, Henryk Tauber was able to hide in such a chimney. He didn't notice anything unusual either.

There are other arguments against the false idea of "18-inch layer of fat" but the most important is that the Soviets were not that much different from the Nazis, and should never be trusted.