Vinnitsa 1941

[Kunikov]

Is there any evidence that Ukrainians helped Gemans kill Jews in Vinnitsa in late Septembe of 1941?

[David Thompson]

Kunikov -- I collected all of the Einsatzgruppe documents I could find dealing with Ukrainian anti-semitism from the start of Operation Barbarossa on 22 June 1941 until 4 February 1942 at:

German documents on anti-semitism in the Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79590

The only massacre of Jews (600) in Vinnitsa mentioned there was carried out by units of Einsatzkommando 6 prior to 17 September 1941, without any Ukrainian assistance being mentioned:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 496#714496

[Kunikov]

Kunikov -- I collected all of the Einsatzgruppe documents I could find dealing with Ukrainian anti-semitism from the start of Operation Barbarossa on 22 June 1941 until 4 February 1942 at:

German documents on anti-semitism in the Ukraine
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79590

The only massacre of Jews (600) in Vinnitsa mentioned there was carried out by units of Einsatzkommando 6 prior to 17 September 1941, without any Ukrainian assistance being mentioned:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 496#714496

I've read that around 28,000 were killed, sometime around September 22nd, anything about this?

[David Thompson]

Kunikov -- You asked:

I've read that around 28,000 were killed, sometime around September 22nd, anything about this?

I didn't find anything in the Einsatzgruppe Reports, or in Raul Hilberg's The Destruction of the European Jews, or in my notes on German police units, which were the closest sources I had at hand. If I find anything later I'll post it here. Where did you read about this mass killing?

[Kunikov]

Kunikov -- You asked:

I've read that around 28,000 were killed, sometime around September 22nd, anything about this?

I didn't find anything in the Einsatzgruppe Reports, or in Raul Hilberg's The Destruction of the European Jews, or in my notes on German police units, which were the closest sources I had at hand. If I find anything later I'll post it here. Where did you read about this mass killing?

Heh, I've been going crazy to find references to it as well, I've been through HIlberg's book and Brownings "The Origins of the Final Solution" so far the only numbers I've found were 10,000 from Westermann's "Hilter's Police Battalions" and I found 28,000 in "Masters of Death" by Rhodes, pg. 149. But, it is a witness estimate, here follows the text: "Erwin Bingel, stationed in the area, witnessed it "in close proximity to our quarters" and throught that it "did not lag behind that of Uman in any respect." He took two complete rolls of photographs and estimated the number of Jewish victims as 28,000."

[David Thompson]

Kunikov -- I found this in my notes; "Gilbert" is the author Sir Martin Gilbert:

Late September 1941
German Army Lieutenant Erwin Bingel witnessed a massacre of Jews at Vinnitsa, in the Ukraine, U.S.S.R. Lt. Bingel estimated that 6,000 people died in the mass slaughter, carried out by Ukrainian militiamen supervised by SS officers:

In the morning at 10:15, wild shooting and terrible human cries reached our ears. At first, I failed to grasp what was taking place, but when I approached the window from which I had a broad view over the whole of the town park, the following spectacle unfolded before my eyes and those of my men who, alerted by the tumult, had meanwhile gathered in my room.

Ukrainian militia on horseback, armed with pistols, rifles and long, straight cavalry swords, were riding wildly inside and around the town park. As far as we could make out, they were driving people along before their horses -- men, women, and children. A shower of bullets was then fired at this human mass. Those not hit outright were struck down with the swords. Like some ghostly apparition, this horde of Ukrainians, let loose and commanded by SS officers, trampled savagely over human bodies, ruthlessly killing innocent children, mothers and old people whose only crime was that they had escaped the great mass murder, so as eventually to be shot or beaten to death like wild animals.

(Gilbert Holo 199)

Lieutenant Bingel witnessed an earlier execution at Uman airfield on 16 September 1941, in which he estimated 24,000 persons were killed by a German unit and Ukrainian militia. Gilbert gives Bingel's description at pp. 196-198.

[Kunikov]

So now there's evidence that Ukrainians were involved??

[David Thompson]

Kinikov -- You asked:

So now there's evidence that Ukrainians were involved??

As for the Vinnitsa killings, that's what Lieutenant Bingel says. The Uman massacre in described in the Einsatzgruppe Reports (with a much smaller death toll than Bingel's estimate) as having taken place using Einsatzgruppe 5 and "militia" on 22-23 September 1941, at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 474#721474

[Kunikov]

Kinikov -- You asked:

So now there's evidence that Ukrainians were involved??

As for the Vinnitsa killings, that's what Lieutenant Bingel says. The Uman massacre in described in the Einsatzgruppe Reports (with a much smaller death toll than Bingel's estimate) as having taken place using Einsatzgruppe 5 and "militia" on 22-23 September 1941, at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 474#721474

Thanks David, but aside from Bingel's account, there's nothing that indicates that Ukrainians took part in this? I personally haven't found any mention of any Ukrainian units. Thanks again, that was excellent information.

[David Thompson]

Kunikov -- Bingel probably got his dates mixed up, since he gave his affidavit after the war in 1945. The contemporaneous Einsatzgruppen Reports mention massacres at both places, but on different dates (within a week or two) in September 1941 and with significantly less victims. The Reports do not mention Ukrainian participation in the Vinnitsa murders, but do mention the participation of militia in the Uman murders.

[Kunikov]

Kunikov -- Bingel probably got his dates mixed up, since he gave his affidavit after the war in 1945. The Einsatzgruppen Reports mention massacres at both places, but on different dates (within a week or two) in September 1941 and with significantly less victims. The Reports do not mention Ukrainian participation in the Vinnitsa murders, but do mention the participation of militia in the Uman murders.

Ahh, understood, thanks again.

[Earldor]

Kunikov -- Bingel probably got his dates mixed up, since he gave his affidavit after the war in 1945. The Einsatzgruppen Reports mention massacres at both places, but on different dates (within a week or two) in September 1941 and with significantly less victims. The Reports do not mention Ukrainian participation in the Vinnitsa murders, but do mention the participation of militia in the Uman murders.

Ahh, understood, thanks again.

If you're interested in the subject of collaboration, I would suggest getting hold of Martin Dean's "Collaboration in the Holocaust; Crimes of the Local Police in Belorussia and Ukraine, 1941-44" [ISBN 0-312-22056-1, NY 2000]. I have still to read it but I do have a copy and on page 42, we find:

"Further large scale actions followed in mid-September in Berdichev and Vinnitsa, where in each case available sources indicate that more than 10 000 Jews were killed.8"

note 8. D. Wolkogonow, Stalin, pp. 556-9

As for the Ukranian participation, with a cursory scan, I could not find any mention that the Ukranian Schutzmannschaften/Hilfspolizei took part in the Vinnitsa massacres (there was another large one in April 1942, possibly to "make room" for Hitler's Russian HQ], but as the situation was what it was in the occupied Soviet territories, I'd be extremely surprised to hear if the Ukranian auxiliaries didn't have a role in the large scale Vinnitsa killings. In Zhitomir (19.9. 1941) 3145 Jews were shot and the Jewish quarter was sealed off by the Ukranian militia, in Rovno (6.-7.9.) 15 000 Jews were killed, "assisted by members of Police Battalion 320 and local Ukranian police," etc.

In Vinnitsa the local Hilfspolizei was established already under the initial military administration after the capture of the town on the 21st of July 1941.

[Kunikov]

Thanks for the tip about this book, I have it and have just dug it up, your note though is wrong, it was for the previous chapter. The note with the quote you have is the following,
8. D. Pohl 'Die Einsatzgruppe C', pg. 74-5; BA R 58/217 EM 86, 17 September 1941, p. 18; ZSL II 20a AR-Z 136/67, vol. IV and Soviet witnesses, pp. 44-46 and 29-301, I. Ehrenburg and V. Grossman, THe Black Book, p. 20 ; Browning, Ordinary men, p/ 18 notes that Police battalions 314 and 45 participated in the execution of several thousand Jews in Vinnitsa in September 1941.

[Earldor]

your note those is wrong, it was for the previous chapter.

Very true. Thanks for the correction.