Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Kriegsmarine except those dealing with the U-Boat forces.
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Don71
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#46

Post by Don71 » 12 Jul 2015, 01:28

vladalex wrote:
Don71 wrote: ...
Also to me BS/TP are overall the best designed european BB'S of the WWII, from fighting power, functioning artillery, armour layout, range and speed.
...
So the KM had surely a bunch of bad designs, but also a bunch of good designs.
I give for all the Forum-funs a "hand-made-picture" of the Goliath & David, which shows eloquently the degree of functionality of Bismarck the proud of the KM, against an antique English "mosquito" , maintained in RN .
As a result of loss of this ship, KM designers have developed and proposed idea of a super-ship class: Fuhrer.
Cheers for KM as the idea was rejected. It's a good example of how professionals could be these engineers of the KM.
No comment .

Regards,
Vladalex

I don't think that HMS Vanguard has any clear advantages compare to a TP 1944. So were is your argumentation and issue?

The german armour layout was completely different to any other Navy. The explanations are written at the Lilianthal Report from 1942, were the KM compare BS/TP at detail to the Richelieu class. The deep german main armour deck with slopes and integrarted to the vertical armour layout, was in need to a long ctadell (170m), to give enough protected room for the ship. The spaced array armour layout with 50mm weather deck, and 80mm main armour deck, was rated after post war primary ADM papers, equal to a 6 inch single armour deck layout.

Also there are the Panzerschiffe, which are to my opinion a good design for the beginning 1930er and the Elbing class, the FT39, which have done some very interesting operations at the channel between 1942-44 with clear headaches to the RN. To me a very good small destroyer class.

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Urmel
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#47

Post by Urmel » 12 Jul 2015, 09:48

James A Pratt III wrote:It should be pointed out when the Germans designed these ships in the 1920s and 30s they were probably thinking of them operating in the North Sea or Baltic like in WW I not out in the Atlantic or Artic as in WW II. So it didn't matter that much if the ship had poor seakeeping ability.
The North Sea isn't exactly a mill pond either.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tland.html
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42


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vladalex
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#48

Post by vladalex » 12 Jul 2015, 10:23

Don71 wrote:

I don't think that HMS Vanguard has any clear advantages compare to a TP 1944. So were is your argumentation and issue?
I d'ont tell a word about any comparisson between Germany fleet and another fleet. Of course strong point for KM was enough, and , by the way, RN was not the best example for vision of the futures on the sea - but just enough to overtake, the German fleet
The german armour layout was completely different to any other Navy. The explanations are written at the Lilianthal Report from 1942, were the KM compare BS/TP at detail to the Richelieu class. The deep german main armour deck with slopes and integrarted to the vertical armour layout, was in need to a long citadell (170m), to give enough protected room for the ship. The spaced array armour layout with 50mm weather deck, and 80mm main armour deck, was rated after post war primary ADM papers, equal to a 6 inch single armour deck layout.
Every piece from a german warship was a technical-gem, but all together was not a very god ship - the cause : bad vision for sea-power evolution
Also there are the Panzerschiffe, which are to my opinion a good design for the beginning 1930er and the Elbing class, the FT39, which have done some very interesting operations at the channel between 1942-44 with clear headaches to the RN. To me a very good small destroyer class.
I think if KM had a minimum of 15 Panzerschiffe, we could discuss, otherwise I saw what had efficiency. Do not design a new class of ships to build two units, not worth invested in the project work.
About Elbing class : this is my secret love . I think that this class was the seed, after the war, for today's Arleigh Burke class


Regards,
Vladalex

Bob Cornford
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#49

Post by Bob Cornford » 13 Jul 2015, 11:55

I think the problem was down to trying to counter the massive discontinuity in ship design caused by loss of WWI. Then playing design catchup and using technology to do so. Without any operational experience or feedback with leading edge plant, problems were inevitable. On the subject of hull form, the german designs tended to have insufficient freeboard, especially forward. Ok in the Baltic, but not so good in the waters of the Atlantic. In any case, they had nowhere near enough resources, something which Raeder realised when war was announced, long before he expected.
Almost all the deficiencies were of a nature that could not be rectified. I'm thinking here of the steam plants with advanced steam conditions in excess of the US navy at that time. The basic design flaws of the destroyers in addition to the steam plant problems. The unsuitability of the heavy cruisers as commerce raiders. The list goes on really.
Bob

Felix C
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#50

Post by Felix C » 13 Jul 2015, 20:51

I have the impression from reading von Porten's general history on the Kriegsmarine which included interviews with still living DKM commanders as in Doenitz that the CA, BC, and BBs wee supposed to function as a North Atlantic raiding force to disrupt convoys. The one area where Uboats failed miserably in WW1. But the few german surface ship sorties against convoys did well.

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Urmel
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#51

Post by Urmel » 13 Jul 2015, 22:02

Felix C wrote:But the few german surface ship sorties against convoys did well.
Not sure. Hipper' sortie in late 1940 was a non-event, and if you read this, 'lack of fuel' is a recurring theme, which goes some way towards the point that the heavy cruisers weren't suitable for the job:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cr ... ral_Hipper

We all know how Prinz Eugen and Bismarck's sortie ended.

The single sortie by Gneisenau and Scharnhorst was successful, but was that a good return for sending two BBs out?
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Felix C
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#52

Post by Felix C » 13 Jul 2015, 23:40

I mean in WW1. The Bergen Convoys twice attacked.

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Urmel
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#53

Post by Urmel » 13 Jul 2015, 23:53

Ah okay.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

uhu
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#54

Post by uhu » 01 Aug 2015, 18:49

Well, how many surface ships left over from WWII are still around and in use daily?

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33543706

Paul Lakowski
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#55

Post by Paul Lakowski » 01 Aug 2015, 23:20

'We all know how the KM surface raid went'....not sure about such POV. Lets review what we do know.

According to O'Hara and other sources....

Winter 1939 AGS & DEUT sank or captured 12 MV
Winter 1940/41 Scheer sank or captured 14 MV , while Hipper sank or crippled 10MV in 2 smaller sortie. Then of course the Twins sank or captured 22 MV in their sorties. Finally we have Bismarck and Prince Eugen sank nothing.

So in short 10 Sortie mounted ~20 attacks sinking/capturing or destroying 63 MV & 5 warships. In exchange a BB & PBS were sunk. Not bad compared to WW-I fame where 5 cruiser sortie & averaged 9 MV each but were all sunk in exchange.

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vladalex
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#56

Post by vladalex » 02 Aug 2015, 13:40

Paul Lakowski wrote:So in short 10 Sortie mounted ~20 attacks sinking/capturing or destroying 63 MV & 5 warships. In exchange a BB & PBS were sunk. Not bad compared to WW-I fame where 5 cruiser sortie & averaged 9 MV each but were all sunk in exchange.
My personal opinion :
All this sortie's and the coresponding results, from POV of the 2-nd world war , or Atlantic war, cover, a 5-6 time years long, represent a drop of water in the midle of the ocean - no any strategical effect to the balance of war.

Best Regards,
Vladalex

Paul Lakowski
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#57

Post by Paul Lakowski » 04 Aug 2015, 00:47

The flow of resources to the UK and ultimately Europe is critical to the outcome of any European war and Germany knows this. Any thing it can do to damage /cripple or sever this life line- could have won them the European war.

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Urmel
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#58

Post by Urmel » 09 Aug 2015, 15:21

Paul Lakowski wrote:'We all know how the KM surface raid went'....not sure about such POV. Lets review what we do know.

According to O'Hara and other sources....

Winter 1939 AGS & DEUT sank or captured 12 MV
Winter 1940/41 Scheer sank or captured 14 MV , while Hipper sank or crippled 10MV in 2 smaller sortie. Then of course the Twins sank or captured 22 MV in their sorties. Finally we have Bismarck and Prince Eugen sank nothing.

So in short 10 Sortie mounted ~20 attacks sinking/capturing or destroying 63 MV & 5 warships. In exchange a BB & PBS were sunk. Not bad compared to WW-I fame where 5 cruiser sortie & averaged 9 MV each but were all sunk in exchange.
Selective much?

How about surface raids that did not happen because of mechanical failures or sea damage in the intended raiders?

How about the raids against the PQ convoys and the losses there?

What about the twins raiding into the retreating convoys from Norway, which left both of them heavily damaged and out of action for half a year?

How about putting it in context? In September 1939 German subs sunk multiple times the ships lost to AGS and Deutschland.

So, yeah, let's review what we know and conclude that the raids were a waste of time in terms of the impact on losses. The biggest impact they had was that they forced the RN to have BBs going along with the convoys.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Paul Lakowski
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#59

Post by Paul Lakowski » 13 Aug 2015, 06:47

Looking just at what is reported to have happened allows us to remove personal bias from the equation.

Don't know if it would help some one like you though.

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Urmel
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Re: Were German Surface Ships Good Designs

#60

Post by Urmel » 13 Aug 2015, 16:02

Oh, someone like me? What is it Paul, did someone wee into your cereal or are you posting under the influence? :roll:

The aborted sorties, the damage to the twins the PQ sorties are all reported to have happened because they did, they are not what-ifs. It is therefore only proper to take them into consideration. Otherwise your analysis is biased from the outset. It is you who doesn't look at the totality of what was reported because it suits your bias.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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