Power Plants

[Carl Schwamberger]

Sources and information of the German ships steam generation. The core of this is the operating pressure, & why that was choosen. Some secondary questions about the specifc grade of fuel used and why. Thnks for any links, books, and particualry for thumbnail decscriptions .

[bertamingo]

If you mean the floating powerplants, I thought they were used to generate electricity instead of steam. But I could be wrong. The only KM ship used to generate steam AFAIK is the old DD/TB Troll, captured from Norway, and converted into a steam suppplier because it was too old to serve as a TB.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Just the ships primary power, the steam boilers.

Thanks

[Agincourt459]

Finding plant data is difficult to say the least for just about any ship. I have some data from a paper I was researching back in the 1980s. It isn't much and I will have to see if I can find the references cites from the paper. I know I would have consulted:

German Warships of the Second World War (1976) H. T. Lenton
Battleships and Battle Cruisers, 1905-1970 (1973) Siegfried Breyer

1933
Scharnhorst u. Gneisenau 12 Wagner, Natural Circulation, Water Tube, 3 Drum Boilers 8 operating @ 661 psi 4 operating @ 735 psi

1934
Admiral Hipper 12 LaMont Forced Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1175 psi
Blücher 12 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi
Z.1-Z.8 (Typ 1934) 6 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi
Z.9-Z.16 (Typ 1934) 6 Benson Forced Circulation, Supercritical Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1616 psi
F.1-F.6 2 LaMont Forced Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1616 psi
F.7-F.8 2 Benson Supercritical Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi
F.9-F.10 2 Velox Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi
Brummer 2 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi
Grille 4 Benson Supercritical Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1175 psi

1935
Bismarck u. Tirpitz 12 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 808 psi (58 kg/cm²)
450°C @ superheater outlet
Graf Zeppelin 16 LaMont Forced Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1249 psi
Z.17-Z.22 (Typ 1936) 6 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi
Prinz Eugen 12 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1012 psi
T.1-T.12 (Typ 1935) 4 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi

1936
Seydlitz u. Lützow 9 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 881 psi

1937
T.13-T.21 (Typ 1937) 4 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi

1938
Z.23-Z.30 (Typ 1936A) 6 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi
Sp.1-Sp.3 {ex-Z.40-Z.42} (Typ 1938A/Ac)
4 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi

1939
Z.31-Z.34, Z.37-Z.39 (Typ 1936A (Mob))
6 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi
T.22-T.36 (Typ 1939) 4 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi

1940
Z.35-Z.36, Z.43-Z.45 (Typ 1936B)
6 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi

1941
Z.46-Z.50 (Typ 1936C) 6 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi
T.37-T.51 (Typ 1941) 4 Wagner, Hochdruck, Natural Circulation, Water Tube Boilers operating @ 1028 psi

The USN would have had some post-WWII experience with HP steam systems: Prinz Eugen was taken over and became IX-300, Z.39 was taken over and became DD-939, and T.35 was taken over and became DD-935; but it looks like they didn't pay too much attention before inflicting the 1200 psi plants on the fleet in the late 50's. I understand the physics of High Pressure/High Temperature to wring out more horsepower from the plants but the world record for steam powered DDs is still held by the Le Terrible of the Le Fantasque class (launched 1931) at a hair over 45 knots (83 km/h; 52 mph) using 4 Penhoët (Yarrow-Loire?) boilers 27 kg/cm² (384 psi) @ 325°C.

Hope this helps.

Rick

[Carl Schwamberger]

Rick

Thanks very much. Its a obscure question & the only other useful source I'd had a was a engine crewman of the US merchant marine who died a couple years ago. Hopefully this info will still be of use down the line, more so the sources.

That still leaves the question of the grade of fuels used, but I'm a patient sort & am grateful for the info so far.

Thanks

[Agincourt459]

I have never read anything about what specific Fuel Oil the KM used on boilers. The very unhelpful description of "Oil Fired", "Oil Fuel" or "Fuel Oil" is repeated in most books. Looking at pictures of survivors being fished out of the water it appears that a heavy oil was carried on board.

Until the 1960s the USN used NSFO (Navy Special Fuel Oil) which is in the range of Number 5 Fuel Oil/Bunker B. Number 6 Fuel Oil/Bunker C was also used by some fleets but can cause more problems than it solves since it may contain 2% water and 1/2% mineral soil. Water is a special problem in fuel oil since the injection of water into a blazing hot firebox can and does cause brickwork failure and other thermal stress damage. Number 5 would require preheating to 170-220°F and Number 6 to 220-260°F to get the viscosity adjusted for proper atomization at the burners.

If you can get a hold of the actual blueprints (not line drawings) of the various ships there would be Fuel Oil Heaters somewhere in the boiler room. Perversely the fuel not burned in the boiler would have to be cooled before returning it to the fuel oil tanks so there should be Fuel Oil Coolers installed somewhere too. This would only confirm the use of heavy oil but not what grade.

I wonder if the purchase records for the KM would have survived, especially the pre-war stuff. That should show what they bought to gas up the fleet.

Rick

[Carl Schwamberger]

Thanks. I'll have more questons later. At work now.

[thaddeus_c]

not to change the subject but what was thinking on secondary or auxiliary powerplant? running the high pressure steam to power ship was found to hurt the range, at least on DDs more diesels were added.

[Agincourt459]

Destroyers, in general, do not lend themselves to major levels of redundancy. To provide a complete aux electrical plant just wasn't/isn't feasible. A major issue, in fact a prohibitive one, would be having to provide bunkers for two different types of fuel.

The Z.51 was the first Zerstörer planned with diesels for propulsion (3 shafts with 1 24-cylinder M.A.N. diesel on each wing shaft and 4 on the center shaft) but was destroyed before she finished fitting out.

Rick

[Carl Schwamberger]

...
Until the 1960s the USN used NSFO (Navy Special Fuel Oil) which is in the range of Number 5 Fuel Oil/Bunker B. Number 6 Fuel Oil/Bunker C was also used by some fleets but can cause more problems than it solves since it may contain 2% water and 1/2% mineral soil. Water is a special problem in fuel oil since the injection of water into a blazing hot firebox can and does cause brickwork failure and other thermal stress damage. Number 5 would require preheating to 170-220°F and Number 6 to 220-260°F to get the viscosity adjusted for proper atomization at the burners.

...

That puts a remark Andy (the MM crewman) in context. He tried to convey to me the problem in impurities creating flash fires or detonations when things weren't adjusted correctly. I understood here he was referring to higher volatile petroleum as the contaminates, or am I wrong here? One of the non technical terms he used was "bad fuel" .

[Agincourt459]

The higher volatiles are almost (Murphy must be acknowledged) never a problem in the heavier fuels oils. It is the crud that will get you. I remember reading that the IJN was having screaming fits near the end of the war using Indonesian crude straight out of the ground which no one could predict how it would burn/explode/clot.

Even today, using DFM (Diesel Fuel Marine) for the boilers, the fuel tanks are tested, before use, for water and sediments. When taking on fuel it is tested for flash point, which must be above 120°F, or it is rejected (excessive volatiles).

Rick

[Thoddy]

I have never read anything about what specific Fuel Oil the KM used on boilers. The very unhelpful description of "Oil Fired", "Oil Fuel" or "Fuel Oil" is repeated in most books. Looking at pictures of survivors being fished out of the water it appears that a heavy oil was carried on board.

They used a so called "Leichtes Heizöl"
during war only a substandard quality oil was available in limited amounts,
-specific weight ~0,95 t/m³ and
-calorific value 8,800 kcal/l

This relatively low calorific value oil was partly responsible for the reduced ranges
Pre war a fuel oil with ~10,000 kcal/l calorific value was available and all early range calculations were made with the high calorific fuel oil.

[Peter K.]

Hello THODDY!
What is the source for the interesting figures you mentioned above, please?
According the some reports made about the yearly high speed trials of every ship between may and september 1939 the calorific values of fuel oil were always between 9.280 and 9.600 kcal/l. In 1938 they seemed to be even lower, down to 8.920 kcal/l. The calorific values of diesel fuel were higher, between 9.900 and 10.360 kcal/l. Im 1938 these figures seemed to be similar. BTW, the speed tables for the minesweepers M 1 to M 12 were calculated with a value of 8.800 kcal/l according to a document of 03.10.1939.
Greetings Peter K.

[Thoddy]

I have to look in my documents.

As far as I remember correctly, years ago I stumbled over a statment with the calorific value of 10,000 kcal/l.

possibilities
-Handakte Allgemeine Konstruktionsdaten Überwasserschiffe, Geheime Kommandosache" (the file containing the data of all german WW2 ships and some ww1 Grosse Kreuzer)
-Akte "Kriegserfahrungen ... nach einem Jahr" containing the data for reasons for ships beeing out of service and so on(this is the underlying reference document for all technical problems of german ships including german high pressure machinery)
-Kriegserfahrungen mit dem Schlachtschifftyp " Bismarck/Tirpitz", gewonnen bei Wiederherstellungsarbeiten des Schlachtschiffes "Tirpitz" nach Angriffen mit Spezialminen und Flugzeugbomben, Oberbaurat Krux

or another document in the vicinity of these documents

From memory it was like the finding of the "Zeichnung Panzerabwicklung "Schlachtschiff F" gültig für Panzerdicken, im Laufe des Baues geändert, Geheime Kommandosache" drawing in the Akte Minenkrieg

the 8,800 kcal/l figure is from
-M.Dv.Nr. 371 Schiffskunde für Schiffe der Kriegsmarine; Heft 4 Schlachtschiffes Tirpitz/
-Kriegserfahrungen mit dem Schlachtschifftyp " Bismarck/Tirpitz", gewonnen bei Wiederherstellungsarbeiten des --Schlachtschiffes "Tirpitz" nach Angriffen mit Spezialminen und Flugzeugbomben, Oberbaurat Krux/
--Handakte... see above

[Peter K.]

Thanks for telling me your sources, THODDY!
Unfortunately the data aren´t mentioned in the "Handakte Allgemeine Konstruktionsdaten" and also not in the "Denkschrift über Forderungen für den künftigen Kriegsschiffbau aufgrund der Erfahrungen des ersten Kriegsjahres ...", but I am only owing the first part on roll 1819 of the later and not the second one, which is on roll 1820. Moreover I am also missing the M.Dv. 371/4 and the "Kriegserfahrungen mit dem Schlachtschifftyp BS/TP ...", but we will see.
Thanks again for your highly appreciated help!