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U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the submarine forces of the Kriegsmarine.

Postby ohrdruf on 19 Feb 2007 16:37

This reply is for Varjag, who was rather nice about me earlier on, and I cannot get really annoyed at him.

Let us be clear. This is a forum for the exchange of ideas. Warfare is very much about disinformation, and our interest in this forum is to clarify areas of doubt and unravel disinformation. As a writer I have found these columns very useful to float theories in order to see how people react to them and provide alternatives. Occasionally the replies, particularly if they are made in a sober manner by people who have some knowledge of the subject, such as yourself Varjag, enable us to correct our line of approach, and admit our errors. The material regarding the flights over Sweden in 1944/March 1945 is a case in point. One acknowledges now that these will probably have been test flights of the Lippisch supersonic ramjet aircraft. It seems likely that these aircraft reached speeds approaching 2000 kms/hr, flew at great altitude and made a great deal of noise, and such being the case they fit the criteria.

I move to the subject of U-boats landing to Argentina. Although there were many sightings from the shore by civilian witnesses during July 1945, in the manuscript I am presently preparing I rely only on declassified reports made by the Argentine Navy and police, or admitted into evidence by the congressional committee CIAA in the 1952 enquiries.

Argentine has nothing to gain by admitting that U-boats unloaded along its shores, rather the contrary. It has a Nazi past, wishes to admit it and move ahead. However, for various reasons the Argentines have been prepared in the past to declassify a relatively small quantity of material, and from these papers we can establish a viable theory.

An argument frequently employed by those who accept only U-530 and U-977 is that no scuttled U-boat has ever been found nor has any sailor aboard such a third or fourth U-boat come forward with his story. Over the last ten years there have been eight or so diving expeditions supported by the Argentine Government in search of scuttled U-boats. These searches must be a lot of fun. They are usually in sight of the coast, not too far down and never find anything, thus confirming the idea that no U-boats were ever scuttled in Argentine waters. The purpose of the SS in Argentina was obviously to conceal material incoming from seawards. Ten miles out from the alleged landing point at Necochea the 600-foot contour runs, beyond which the sea bed shelves sharply to about 3000 feet. Now call me pro-SS if you like, but I would prefer to scuttle my U-boat secretly in 3,000 feet rather than within half mile of the shore in 300 feet. Just in case a fisherman tangled his nets in the conning tower.

No U-boat man has ever written a book or published his experiences in a magazine article. Immediately after the war 30,000 SS managed to enter Argentina secretly. Although only 1% of these were wanted for war crimes, not a single SS man, some of whom must have an interesting story to tell, has ever written a book nor published a magazine article. Undoubtedly they were and remain under the strictest instructions to remain silent. The U-boats which made it to Argentina delivered SS materials and wealth to the SS in Argentina. Likewise, the crews were undoubtedly under the strictest instructions to remain silent, and an SS order is best obeyed, or else.

No proper investigation of U-530 and U-977, considering all the declassified material, has been made to this point. The entire history of the final voyages of these two submarines is based on the US Navy interrogation reports of the crews once they arrived as captives in the United States. The British interrrogations in Hertfordshire in 1945 and 1946 remain classified until 2020, and one wonders what was said by Schäffer to merit it being given such a high level of secrecy. All he did was come to Argentina to avoid "biological contamination", didn´t he?


Until 2002, the reports on the interrogations of Wermuth and Schäffer by the Argentine Navy at Mar del Plata, made the day after their respective arrivals, were kept top secret. Now that they have been declassified we have a second story. Now we have two versions, two Wermuths, two Schäffers and only one of them is likely to be the true one, more or less. Which was the Wermuth, which the Schäffer, who never was? The Argentines have chosen not to release the interrogations of the boats' officers and crew but based on reports from Brazilian naval sources these are also believed to prove that neither voyage was what it seemed, the dates are all crap and we have been fed a pack of lies and deceit by the northern hemisphere to conceal the true purpose behind both voyages. And neither boat had Hitler, Eva Braun nor Bormann aboard. Jawohl.
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Postby ohrdruf on 19 Feb 2007 22:25

[quote="varjag"]I hesitate to write this because Ohrdruf seems such an enthusiastic and nice contributor - but regrettably delving in Phantasmagoria of 'black' (that is - never recorded U-boats) unloading nazis and their riches in Argentina.....Sorry Ohrdruf - but your writings have nothing to do with Axis HISTORY - they remain [b]PH[/b]antasmagoria.[/quote]


With apologies to Charles Dickens:

"They seek U-235 here, they seek U-235 there, those varjags seek her everywhere,
Does U-235 lie off Denmark? Does she hell!
That demned elusive pimpernel!"

Three U-boats came down to Argentina and unloaded cargo: U-977, U-235 and one other. (Phantasmagorical or not, I can't know everything.)

Here is the story of U-235, a "black boat".

1. U-235 had been a training boat in the Baltic until 2 April 1945 when she was transferred to 31.U-Flotilla as a Front boat.

2. U-977 was also attached to 31.U-Flotilla.

3. U-977 sailed from Kiel on 13 April 1945 and put into Frederikshavn to load 45 tonnes of "total protection" and cargo for Argentina on 14 April 1945.

4. By a stupendous coincidence, on that very same day, the 14 April 1945, U-235 was reportedly depth-charged and sunk in precise coordinates not far offshore below the northern tip of Denmark. She was allegedly sunk by the German torpedo-boat T-17. The only source we have for the sinking of U-235 is therefore the German Navy, and the German Navy was responsible for sending U-boats to Argentina..

5. Of all the U-boats "sunk" in the Kattegat, U-235 is in the easiest position to find. Over recent years no less than five U-boats have been located in the Kattegat and raised. There is a nice map of these on u-boat.net. None of these found U-boats has been U-235. Search as they might, no salvor can find the tomb of U-235. And they cannot find Huisgen's boat because it was only sunk in the War Diary of a German torpedo-boat, and not in real life.

6. Schäffer wrote a "special" version of his book edited for the Argentine Navy, a book published in Spanish in 1955 which differs vastly from the novel he turned out in 1950. In this amended book he says that once he had been joined by a U-boat of conventional Type whose number he prefers not to reveal, the trio (U-977, a Type XXI and the conventional Type) set off for Horten and arrived there unscathed on 21 April 1945.

7. The next we hear of U-235 is in a document declassified by Argentine counter-intelligence. This is a Memorandum of the Coordinación Federal DAE 568 classified "strictly secret and confidential" and dated 14 October 1952, written by the Head of the Cordoba Delegation to the Head of the Division for External Affairs. This document is headed: "Movement of Foreigners" and in translation reads as follows:

"I bring to your attention that our agents (names deleted) have detected in the locality of Ascochinga, mountainous zone of Cordoba province, a ranch situated on the Cerro Negro which has been aquired by a former German officer who disembarked at Mar del Plata submarine base from U-235. This submarine was proceeding from Germany to Patagonia at the conclusion of hostilities. The officer in question holds meetings with former high-ranking Nazi financiers...."

German submarines seem to have just "called in" at Mar del Plata by night to drop off important technical people before continuing to where they unloaded "secretly". This unloading process was not difficult, because from 21 July 1945 the Argentine Navy had called off all coastal patrols along its 4,000 kilometres of coastline.

The small village above Ascochinga was investigated by Argentine author Jorge Camarasa for his book "Puerto Secreto" (Buenos Aires 2006) and a report made (page 214-5) on his discoveries.
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Postby varjag on 20 Feb 2007 05:16

ohrdruf my old friend! How nice to hear from you again.....hope you are well. I can certainly see that you are as deep as ever into your research :wink: .
Meanwhile, if you link to http://www.forumskagerrak.com, a Swed/Norweg/Danish site, dealing with shipwrecks in that area where U 235 is recorded but in a slightly different position to that recorded.(by T-17?) It's on Page 36.

In celebration of this find, I am delighted to hand you this lovely specimen of Anagalis arvensis, or - The Scarlet Pimpernel. And b.t.w. ohrdruf, Dickens had nothing to do with that novel and play...it was written Baroness Emmanuska Orczy, who let's the gallant Sir Percy Blakeney recite the verse in, I think the second act. Take care my friend, Varjag
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Postby DeCicco on 20 Feb 2007 07:49

Hey, I missed this thread...all this U-Boat unloading thing is a very interesting topic and I've heard many things about this in the last years. Recently I've watched a local TV show (I live in Trelew, take a look at the map a few pages back for more info) and there was a reporter making an investigation about U-boats here in Patagonia.. there was lots of 1945 pics of strange silouhetes on the sea.. and those were not normal ships, they also made an interview with an old lady who lives near San Antonio Oeste since she was a girl, and she claimed to have seen "tall blond men unloading boxes and barrels out of a sunken boat" this was something hard to believe, but then she took the reporters back to her place, a little precarious house, with some chickens, but the funny thing, was how the chickens' "house" was made, the lady took out and old, rusted piece of metal from under the dirt, with the eagle and swastica clearly readable, this might be no final proof of Nazi landings in Patagonia, but its something.
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Postby ohrdruf on 20 Feb 2007 15:35

Varjag

Nice try, but this is obviously not U-235.

I stand corrected on the authorship of the verse, and apologize to Baroness Orczy for my error. I remember as a child reading one of her detective novels, "The Old Man in the Corner". She was a very good writer.
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Postby Simon Gunson on 22 Feb 2007 10:26

Mohnke lived in Berlin after his release by the Soviets under an assumed name for many years until outed by the press.

What about Mengele ? It was known roughly where he was, he didnt get to S.America via a u-boat but followed the established route probably courtesy of Cardinal Hudal of the Vatican.


That's how politicians answer questions Iltis. They do not address the point first raised but answer by ridiculing a point never postulated in the first place. have never yet known a politician who could sleep straight.

The point you failed to address is Mr Mengele did not publish his true name in the phone book. He did not stand for public office or even join the local PTA. He covered his existence as would have anyone else landed by U-boat.

What about Mengele ?

You suggest that because there is no official record... No name in a telephone directory... No record in the KTB... that it couldn't possibly have happened, but hey Mengele was there all along wasn't he and he wasn't in the phone book was he?

Nor do I claim that Mengele landed by U-boat which is simply you playing a politician's spin game.

Mengele is an example, because was a wanted war criminal and could not be found because he took steps to cover his existence. Do you expect a U-boat crew in 1945 to tie up their U-boat at a wharf in Buenos Aries harbour and just wander down to the nearest pub ?

The point which you've conveniently side stepped is your insistence that if U-boats landed clandestinely, ipso facto there must be proof. That is itself a logically flawed, circular argument.

I have checked the 1942 & 1944 DAL's and there is no Kurt Gross listed amongst the SS officers of General rank. There is a Standartenfuhrer Hermann Gross born 1891 who didnt apparently disappear to South America and there was an Oberfuhrer Martin Gross born 1901 who doesnt seem to feature amongst the South America gossip either.


If you check up SS records you will also find that Hauptsturmfuhrer Gottfreid Standstede died in fighting on the Russian front in July 1944, but was alive and well in Argentina in 1945. So much for your "official" records !

Given that Gross was an SS General responsible for the Nazi spy network in Latin America I doubt you will find him listed in the phone directory either. suppose you tell me what other spy operatives of SD Mil Amt VI, or Skorzeny's Brandenburgers are published openly ?

These RSHA lists were concealed at the end of the war and found their way into the hands of the OSS/CIA for their usefulness spying against Russia.

Funny that, the CIA don't publish their undercover agents in the phone directory either. Well dear oh dear. So I suppose you guys don't believe in the CIA either ?

So what you're saying Iltis and Varjag is if it is not published on the internet or the phone directory it can't be true ?

What about SS Brigadefuhrer Wili Kohn who disappeared from Berlin in 1945 and turned up in Chile.Is he in your telephone directory or didn't he exist either ?

Go read a well researched book called "The Nazi Menace in Argentina 1931-1947" by Ronald C Newton. There is a huge body of researched evidence and it wasn't obtained from a telephone directory.

Whilst you're about that, why not tell us what became of U-416 and U239 which were sunk in 1944 in training accidents, but then refloated and refitted ?

They do not appear in any of your precious lists of U-boats either scuttled, sunk in action or surrendered to the allies. Well according to your theory if they weren't on some list, then they could not have existed.
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Postby ohrdruf on 22 Feb 2007 20:59

Kiwikid

I agree with the points you make. Writers such as Iltis and my old sparring partner Varjag, though nice enough people generally, are of a particular genre. They will never admit an error, nor can they ever shift their position to admit alternative possibilities.

Be careful about Professor Newton. Whereas his work on the German espionage system is sound if biased, and I have recently confirmed much of what he says from material in the Biblioteca Nacional at Buenos Aires, he is condemned by all authors in Argentina, Right and Left, as "a liar, a cheat and a disgrace to his nation (Canada) and his profession." These allegations arise from his report for the Argentine Government in 1992 when he was given full access to all classified naval material in connection with President Menem's stated aim of "making a clean breast of Argentina's Nazi past".

In his report to the Argentine public Professor Newton failed to reveal that the Argentine Navy had interrogated Wermuth and Schaeffer, commanders of U-530 and U-977, respectively for two and three days after their arrival at Mar del Plata in 1945, and that the statements made by them at that time differed in all material respects from the US interrogations released later. Either the Argentine interrogations are true, or the US interrogations are true. They cannot both be.

Professor Newton also failed to mention that Schaeffer had written secretly for the Argentine Navy an amended version of his 1952 book. In "El Secreto del U-977" (published privately in Buenos Aires in 1955) he makes clear that he was a member of the German secret service, probably SS, and had a "clear and precise mission" to Argentina. The fact that he loaded 35 tonnes of fuel short "to trim the boat", and landed 16 crew members in Norway to make some space, and even so it was still "intolerably claustrophic" suggests to me at least that all the fantastic number of boxes and crates and cases he mentions were stacked through the pressure hull. This would indicate that his mission was cargo.

Professor Newton considered the possibility that "any U-boat unloaded cargo to Argentina" was as likely as "a UFO landing on your lawn". Yet from 21 July 1945 - another point he fails to mention - the Argentine Navy lifted all coastal patrols. From mid July 1945 onwards a U-boat could unload secretly anywhere along 4,000 kilometres of coastline....but it was as likely as the dog from a UFO doing a crap on your lawn.....

Which begs a question. Why is it so crucially, desperately, terribly important to Professor Newton that no U-boat could EVER, never ever, have landed cargo secretly in Argentina? What is he so frightened might have been in those heavy boxes? Ah! Once you know that, you know everything!
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Presentation

Postby Cook on 05 Mar 2007 06:12

Hello, my name is Cook and I am new in this forum. I have been researching the black u-boots in Patagonia for a year now, and I would really like to make some comments on some issues.

I really agree with some of you that the lack of official documents is a pity, but I must tell you that the Argentine Navy is composed in its High Command by many members of secret societies, masonry or whatever you want to call them. It´s not a Da Vinci Code story, I have made contact with them to try to get some documents, but there was no case.

This people knows everything about the black boats, about the convoy, about Bahía, they have the hole picture. I would have to extend this by talking of argentine history and diplomatic events during WW2, but maybe it would be boring, which I don´t want to be on my first post.

The Navy checked the locations and position of the sunk boats many times since then. In 1978 they almost refloat a Type XXI (which could have been recovered) but the alies recommended not to do it, saying that there were explosive charges in them.

Since then, many searches have been made (TV,newspappers), most of them without precise data or using a navy`s friendly captain to guide the search far from the real position.

Anyway, in 1997 there was an official search which stayed in Caleta de los Loros (any picture can describe that place! so beautifull) for 4 months. The released report of that search, called Operación Callypso, was given to me by current Ministry of Defense, Ms.Nilda Garré, and released to her by Admiral Godoy, Chief Admiral of Argentine Navy.

In that report, the Argentine Navy said that the detection with antisubmarine airplanes was positive in 7 cases (coordinates given), but contact with divers was not. Many accidents and anomalies occured and the Operation was finished before time. Some navy guys once heard that in fact, Operación Callypso had been planed as a definite order to bomb what was left of these uboots.

The fact is that Caleta de los Loros is a vast and lonely place (no electricity, no roads, nothing) and the only neighbour there was a sub official for the Navy for years, now retired (in Argentina, they can take your retirement fund if you are a retired military and you say something you weren`t supposed to...).

The navy took part in almost every search, both official and with spies. The only thing they care is to move the big ships, any excuse is good. Opperative budget here is almost 0.

There´s no policy of automatic document declassification like in other countries, because many things remained in secrecy even today. Why? Peronismo is the answer. Peron was the political garanty for nazis and german companies. Out current president Kirchner is peronista, as almost every politician in goberment.

Peron followers hate this issue, because after the military goverment many of them got voted for being "pro-human rights". If you say that Peron was a fluent german speaker, every one of his followers will say that it is not true. Imagine what they can answer if you accuse Perón of being the link with nazis...

I have wonderfull satelite pictures where you can see the "spots", that match the coordinates where the antisub airplanes got submarine like magnetic anomalies...

I beleive the issue now is to find the left uboot crew members, and show them evidence that the light of truth will show us a big Type XXI any of these days...

I would like some comments on this, specially from Ohrdruf, who made his homework and read a lot on this.

It´s a pleasure to get in contact with smart people interested in history.

Best wishes to you all.
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Postby Andreas on 06 Jun 2007 14:20

Kiwikid wrote:Whilst you're about that, why not tell us what became of U-416 and U239 which were sunk in 1944 in training accidents, but then refloated and refitted ?

They do not appear in any of your precious lists of U-boats either scuttled, sunk in action or surrendered to the allies. Well according to your theory if they weren't on some list, then they could not have existed.


U-416

http://www.uboat.net/boats/u416.htm

Sank twice, 1943 when running on a mine, raised and used as training boat. Sank again after ramming M203 on 12 Dec. 1944. Do you mean to say it was raised again after that?

U-239

http://www.uboat.net/boats/u239.htm

It appears you must have the number wrong. This one is reported as broken up after being damaged by bombs in 1944, not as sunk in a training accident.

Varjag - can you please link directly to the page of the forum, it is impossible for me to find it using their search engine.

All the best

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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

Postby Alaric on 26 Mar 2008 01:51

Gentlemen,

Thank you all so much for the very enlightening information on the subject of U-boats reaching Argentina and off loading cargo. I found most of the posts very enlightening, especially yours ohrdruf. Thank you so much for the great amount of research you've obviously put into the subject and for sharing it and your thoughts with us. I found the idea of "uncommissioned" U-boats being used for clandestine purposes to be in line with my own thinking on the subject. Would like to add one more boat the list of possibilities on the subject. U-666 (what a delightfully cryptic number for any boat) seems to have been unaccounted for as well. According to uboat.net the boat was originally thought sunk on 10 Feb 1944 west of Ireland at position 53.56N, 17.16W from depth charges from Royal Navy escort carrier HMS Fencer. In September 1995 this was revised by the well known authority Axel Niestle', who concluded this attack was "probably against a non-sub target". So here is another mystery u-boat, U-666. What did actually happen to her, was she ever heard from again after 10 Feb 1944, is there any record of her, was she used in clandestine activities after this date? It's entirely possible she was lost somewhere due to some freakish thing such as it's own circling torpodeo or hitting a mine. But it's just as plausible she might have had some sort of "black ops" role. http://uboat.net/boats/u666.htm

Here's a list of all u-boats from uboat.net that are listed as Missing In Action: http://uboat.net/fates/missing.htm that's 51 in all. Of these 51 boats, 2 were attached to 31 Flotilla: U-683 (30 May 1944 to 31 Dec 1944 training, last heard from 20 Feb 1945 front boat with Flotilla 11), U-1020 (17 May 1944 to 22 Nov 1944 training, last known position North Sea after leaving Horten 22 Nov 1944). 3 were attached to Flotilla 33: U-196 (1 Oct 1944 to 1 Dec 1944 front boat, last known position near Sunda Straights south of Java), U-398 (1 Nov 1944 to 17 April 1945 front boat, last known or reported position North Sea or Arctic), U-857 (1 Oct 1944 to 15 Apr 1945 front boat, last reported position N Atlantic off U.S. east coast). At different times U-1226 belonged to both Flotilla 31 and 33, (24 Nov 1943 to 31 July 1944 Flotilla 31 training), (1 Oct 1944 to 28 Oct 1944 front boat Flotilla 33).

Of the 51 MIA boats, 8 went missing after 1 Jan 1945 with last known or suspected position; U-246 (5 April south of the Isle of Man), U-296 (12 March approaches to Northern Channel), U-396 (23 April on way back from weather reporting area unknown), U-398 (17 April North Sea or Arctic), U-683 (20 Feb SW of Ireland or English Channel), U-745 (30 Jan Gulf of Finland), U-857 (15 April North Atlantic off U.S. east coast), U-1055 (23 April North Atlantic or English Channel).
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

Postby projectgreywolf on 03 Apr 2008 15:04

Hi.
I'm a documentary producer making a film later this year on the alleged U-boats to Patagonia. We're completely funded and hope to be working closely with the Argentine authorities and with a number of the authors and researchers that have been mentioned on this forum, and many others.
We plan on an expedition to a number of areas off the Patagonian coast, including Caleta de Los Loros and three other locations where we have strong possibilities of alleged scuttled/sunken U-boats. This plus a large sweep through Bariloche and other locations following the Nazi trail.
I'd be fascinated to hear from any contributors who feel they may have a contribution to make. KiwiKid and Ordrhuf (Geoffrey and Simon, I believe?) seem to have a particular knowledge/area of expertise. (I'm Gerrard )
It's a fascinating area of study and we hope, as others have in the past - sadly without luck - to prove the reality,or not, of such stories.
We've been gathering a great deal of information over the past two years and I have travelled to Argentina on four separate occasions. Although much of the information is in the public domain (Ceana, Calypso, FBI files etcetera) we are still having difficulty finding any eye-witness testimonies from crew members or their children(!) and although I accept that SS oaths would be binding, probably for ever, sixty-three years on I would think someone would be finally willing to tell the truth.

Please feel free to contact me at williamsgerrard@hotmail.com if anyone has stories to share, details to impart or images to confirm any of these stories.
I'm afraid that I'm not a believer in the Antarctic bases, or UFO's, or Lizards controlling the earth(!) but am hoping to do some serious work on what appears to be one of the strangest and compelling stories to come out of the confused end of WW2.
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

Postby Tony Clifton on 29 Apr 2008 01:19

Where is the mystery? An organization named Sharkhunters has done all this - even sent a team to Argentina to meet with witnesses and confirm infrmation gathered from German secret archives. wwww.sharkhunters.com will give you all this information and more.
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

Postby Tony Clifton on 29 Apr 2008 01:24

http://www.sharkhunters.com They have done all this research; sent a team to Argentina to interview witnesses; gathered much information from secret German archives. They have it all wrappped up.
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

Postby projectgreywolf on 01 May 2008 10:47

Hi Tony,

Thanks for that. I know Sharkhunters quite well. If they had sent a team of researchers, published detailed information, etctetera I would be out of a job, as would the dozens of other researchers and writers who have been looking at this for many years. Harry Cooper's operation does some very interesting work, but unless I'm missing something it has NOT proved anything yet.
If the actual existence of a German ww2 submarine off the coast of Argentina, or Chile, come to that, is ever proved it will have a major effect on our understanding of the end of that bloody conflict.
That's what my team are hoping to achieve, and as such I repeat my request for any information other members might have.

Best Regards

Gerrard Williams
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Re: U-boats Unloading on Argentine Coast, 27 July 1945

Postby ohrdruf on 01 May 2008 17:39

Dear Projectgreywolf

The position of a scuttled U-boat is known in the Gulf of San Matías. I am in contact with the team which assembled the information for the dive in 2003. However, the fact that so far as we know no further attempt has been made on this submarine may point you in a certain direction. The greater mystery lies in the facts recently made known regarding the two U-boats U-530 and U-977 which definitely did arrive in Argentina. A re-investigation here should precede any massive investment of funds in scouring the Gulf of San Matías resulting at best in finding a wreck on which you may not be able to dive. If you would like to come through to my PM box we can have a conversation.
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