Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang

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RoW
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#16

Post by RoW » 16 Sep 2005, 13:15

Inside the first source I found photo of captured german sailors from T-31 onboard of G-5 class MTB...
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T31 captured.JPG
T31 captured.JPG (54.19 KiB) Viewed 2522 times

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Juha Tompuri
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#17

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Sep 2005, 15:43

Thanks RoW,

I was about to mail to you and ask for help, but you were faster than me :)

Regards, Juha

P.S. Klaus, RoW was/is THE source at the Niobe thread


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Rauli
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#18

Post by Rauli » 17 Sep 2005, 14:34

Excellent info once again RoW! It is allways interesting to read how things were seen at the "other side of the hill".

Regards,

Rauli

Klaus F.
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#19

Post by Klaus F. » 17 Sep 2005, 18:35

Hello Juha,
Many thanks for your last one e-mail.
After uniting of all data I am the opinion, the meeting the two German boats and the Russian navy-forces was chance. Everybody had his task this night. Only through this the boats got little operation area into the battle. The landing convoy, which one of the two German torpedo-boats were attacked in reality this one was cover-group of the Narvi invasion. But the Germans believed in the "Koivisto-invaders" with whom they fought. As T 30/T31 of the “enemy-clear” karelian-coast came back, the Russian units believed in a renewed attack of the Germans her narvi-operation. The fight started…!
What then happened can through this one being brought to new information
(about the rescue operation) also in a right expiry. Particularly the good information of RoW yields further connections about this battle. The world is small, your grandfather and my uncle was that way at the same place, the relatives discuss the event then at the same time and nowadays, to find new facts. I am glad to have found you in this forum.
I also have looked in the Navy-Gallery at Jari Aromaa. Excellent sides.
Best wishes
Klaus

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#20

Post by Klaus F. » 17 Sep 2005, 18:37

Hello RoW,
a perfect report and many thanks for the picture. These many new details making
my researches around much more detailed of the Russian navy-forces. Are the numbers
of the boats known which were involved in the Narvi-action?
The 2-turret armoured boats of „163”-projekt, MO-boats, OD-200 patrol-boats and the
Minesweepers? The MTB-Numbers know it now all.
Many thanks
Klaus

RoW
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#21

Post by RoW » 17 Sep 2005, 19:49

Oh, sorry, mistake. Not "163"-project, but "161"-project. All 11 armoured boats of this project, which were constructed before June, participated in battles for Bay of Viborg.

I know only about MTBs. Sorry, but I didn't see precise list of boats which participated. You need here more profesional help from man who have information from archives.

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Juha Tompuri
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#22

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 Sep 2005, 22:28

Klaus F. wrote: The world is small, your grandfather and my uncle was that way at the same place, the relatives discuss the event then at the same time and nowadays, to find new facts. I am glad to have found you in this forum.
Thank you very much for you kind words,
Marcus wrote:Information not shared is lost


A detail from the Laivat Puuta Miehet Rautaa:
"...The Flotilla (1st Finnish MTB, JT) immediately started the the rescue operation laying all the time smoke screens as protection against seven enemy patrol boats shooting from near the Narvi island. One patrol boat was on fire at the shore of Narvi. Ten patrol boats were aproaching from Lavansaari. The enemy patrol boats stayed near Narvi perhaps because of two German M-boats and four Artillery Fahres that cruised south of Kiuskeri.
The rescue operation was a very demanding one, as the men that had swimmed in the nafta were slipery as eels. 23 Germans were wounded and nearly all were blinded by the eye burning nafta..."


Few questions RoW,
P.O. Ekman at his Meririntama (he had also used Soviet sources) writes that the Soviet MTB's passed the German Flottentorpedoboats laying smoke screens at both sides of the ships, finally "rounding up" them with the smoke. Then T 30 passed the smoke at full speed but the T 31 reduced it's speed waiting for a while. Ekman gives the credit of sinking the T 31 to TK-37.
Laivat Puuta Miehet Rautaa doesn't mention, but both Bekker and Ekman do: Soviet MTB's strafed the German shipwreck survivors. Does the Soviet/Russian sources have any mention about it?

RoW wrote:For occupation of Nerva was formed intensified landing company with 3-gun battery of 45-mm guns.
Ekman mentiones three 76mm guns, search light and radio station (obviously, JT) and mining equipment (pneumatic drills etc, for to "dig" on to the granite)
These forces were transported under cover of patrol-group from 2-turret armoured boats of "163" project, MO boats, OD-200 patrol-boats (ex-MTB of D-3 class), minesweepers (group under command of Capt. 1st rank E.V. Guskov) and division of MTB (14 MTBs, their names you can find here - http://www.warsailors.com/phorum/read.p ... eply_16515 , 3 sections under command of Capt.-Lieut. B.P.Uschev, Capt.-Lieut. I.S.Ivanov and Capt. 3rd rank V.I.Tihonov under common command of Capt. 2nd rank S.A.Osipov).
Ekman mentiones that there were a Moskva-class auxillary gunboat too. Your sources do not confirm that?

76 german sailors died, 6 were rescued by MO-402, 86 were rescued by finnish forces.
According to Ekman 105 Germans were MIA (=KIA & POW)
Do you know where the "T 31 POW" pic was taken as the POW's seem to sit rather at empty torpedo wells of a G-5 MTB than onboard of a MO-boat ?

Regards, Juha

RoW
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#23

Post by RoW » 19 Sep 2005, 16:44

P.O. Ekman at his Meririntama (he had also used Soviet sources) writes that the Soviet MTB's passed the German Flottentorpedoboats laying smoke screens at both sides of the ships, finally "rounding up" them with the smoke. Then T 30 passed the smoke at full speed but the T 31 reduced it's speed waiting for a while.
Interesting details...
Ekman gives the credit of sinking the T 31 to TK-37
In some books I read the same. But, if I correctly understand, both MTBs fired torpedoes simultaneously or almost simultaneously and it's possible what one torpedo from each MTB have found its target...
Laivat Puuta Miehet Rautaa doesn't mention, but both Bekker and Ekman do: Soviet MTB's strafed the German shipwreck survivors. Does the Soviet/Russian sources have any mention about it?
What can I say... It's almost impossible to confirm or to refute such facts. Anyway, Soviet sailors were interested in capture of some number of men from torpedo-boat for confirmation of their success. BTW, after wreck of T-22, T-30, T-32 on mines Soviet fleet organized extremely risky rescuing operation in area with very high mine danger, where Soviet light forces had heavy losses during the whole war.
Ekman mentiones that there were a Moskva-class auxillary gunboat too. Your sources do not confirm that?
As I understand from Tributz's memoires Moskva herself was sent to the area near Nerva only after battle with torpedo-boats. BTW Moscva isn't a class - Moskva is a gunboat of Angun'-class.
Ekman mentiones three 76mm guns, search light and radio station (obviously, JT) and mining equipment (pneumatic drills etc, for to "dig" on to the granite)
Usually forces of first landing were equiped with 45-mm guns and only next waves delivered heavy armaments. Possibly it was pretty difficult - to unload heavy gun under strong enemy fire. As example landing at Piisari where also at first were unloaded 45-mm guns and only later 85-mm AA-guns. Also during land battles on Eastern Front for occupation of bridge-head on other bank of large rivers forces of first landing usually ferried over 45-mm guns.
Do you know where the "T 31 POW" pic was taken as the POW's seem to sit rather at empty torpedo wells of a G-5 MTB than onboard of a MO-boat ?
Yes, inscription near picture says what it's captured German sailors onboard of G-5 MTB. Possibly this picture was made not at once after battle, but later. But it's only a supposition...

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#24

Post by Klaus F. » 19 Sep 2005, 18:04

Hi Juha,
German sources (combat-report T 31, 03. July.1944) tells us over the crew of T 31, after
20.June 1944 > Swinemünde, 5. July 1944:
94 men rescue (23 wounded, 2 later deceased)
82 men missing.

(combat-report T 30, 20. June 1944)
> on board Flottentorpedoboot T 30:
1 men death
3 men wounded (heavy)
10 men wounded (light)

How much POW’s exact taken by Russian-naval-forces the Germans no presentiment.
Later to know from 6 POW’s of the T 31-crew. Only one men comes back after the war,
with ruin health.
Crew of T 31: 8 officer, and max. 198 non-commissioned officers and crew-members.
The German ships are not everyday with complete crew on the way!
A new question > the “battle-time” are different to the “standard-time” in word war II?
(NATO: Zulu-/Alpha-time)
Big space of time (difference) in the reports of German-/Russian-/Finnish-navy.
The next problem > From where becomes I a picture of the Flottentorpedoboot T 31?
It’s very difficult! All inquiry’s are fruitless. Pictures from T 28, T 30,
or T 34, no problem, but T 31 – nothing! To short in service!

Best regards Klaus

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Juha Tompuri
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#25

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Sep 2005, 23:26

RoW wrote:
Ekman gives the credit of sinking the T 31 to TK-37
In some books I read the same. But, if I correctly understand, both MTBs fired torpedoes simultaneously or almost simultaneously and it's possible what one torpedo from each MTB have found its target...
Makes sense.
Ekman mentiones that there were a Moskva-class auxillary gunboat too. Your sources do not confirm that?
As I understand from Tributz's memoires Moskva herself was sent to the area near Nerva only after battle with torpedo-boats. BTW Moscva isn't a class - Moskva is a gunboat of Angun'-class.
Aha... http://warships.web4u.cz/lode.php?langu ... rida=Amgun
Ekman mentiones three 76mm guns, search light and radio station (obviously, JT) and mining equipment (pneumatic drills etc, for to "dig" on to the granite)
Usually forces of first landing were equiped with 45-mm guns and only next waves delivered heavy armaments. Possibly it was pretty difficult - to unload heavy gun under strong enemy fire. As example landing at Piisari where also at first were unloaded 45-mm guns and only later 85-mm AA-guns. Also during land battles on Eastern Front for occupation of bridge-head on other bank of large rivers forces of first landing usually ferried over 45-mm guns.
Makes sense too. (I don't want to expand this thread off-topic, but do you know what calibre guns there were at Narvi 27th June-44 during the Finnish - German invasion operation Steinhäger )


Klaus F. wrote:Hi Juha,
German sources (combat-report T 31, 03. July.1944) tells us over the crew of T 31, after

20.June 1944 > Swinemünde, 5. July 1944:
94 men rescue (23 wounded, 2 later deceased)
82 men missing.

(combat-report T 30, 20. June 1944)
> on board Flottentorpedoboot T 30:
1 men death
3 men wounded (heavy)
10 men wounded (light)

How much POW’s exact taken by Russian-naval-forces the Germans no presentiment.
Later to know from 6 POW’s of the T 31-crew. Only one men comes back after the war,
with ruin health.
Crew of T 31: 8 officer, and max. 198 non-commissioned officers and crew-members.
The German ships are not everyday with complete crew on the way!
Thanks for that info
A new question > the “battle-time” are different to the “standard-time” in word war II?
(NATO: Zulu-/Alpha-time)
Big space of time (difference) in the reports of German-/Russian-/Finnish-navy.
Finns and Soviet side had 1h different time?
The next problem > From where becomes I a picture of the Flottentorpedoboot T 31?
It’s very difficult! All inquiry’s are fruitless. Pictures from T 28, T 30,
or T 34, no problem, but T 31 – nothing! To short in service!
Sorry, seems that I can't help either.

Regards, Juha

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#26

Post by Klaus F. » 20 Sep 2005, 22:55

Hello Juha,
I see this report in the Internet:
http://kotisivu.suomi.net/brantberg/Sot ... rhonen.htm
A new report or old?
Vara-amiraali Jouko Pirhonen
Vuoden 1944 purjehduskausi alkoi toukokuussa. Venäläisten suurhyökkäys Kannaksella
alkoi kesäkuun 9. päivänä. Moottoritorpedoveneet partioivat ja laskivat pohjamiinoja
Kronstadtin lahdella asti.
Kesäkuun 20. päivän vastaisena yönä komentajakapteeni Sergei Osipovin moottoritorpedoveneet
onnistuivat upottamaan saksalaisen uuden 1.300 tonnin
Flottentorpedoboot T 31: n Narvin vesillä itäisellä Suomenlahdella. Noin kello 2:n aikaan
Pirhonen laivue löysi eloonjääneet 86 pelastuslauttojen varassa uivaa öljyistä ja osaksi pahoin
haavoittunutta saksalaista. Joukossa oli aluksen päällikkö Peter Pirkham. 105 miestä puuttui.
Pelastustyön aikana suomalaiset joutuivat pitämään loitolla 17 tulittavaa vihollisen
vartiomoottorivenettä. – Pelastustyö oli erittäin raskas urakka , Pirhonen kertoo. – Naftassa
uineet miehet olivat liukkaat kuin ankeriaat. 23 saksalaista oli haavoittunut ja melkein kaikki
sokaistuneita silmiä polttavan naftan takia. Haavoittuneet saksalaiset vietiin sairaalalaivalle,
siviilissä Ruotsin pääkonsuli Hans von Rettigin huvialus Seagull II: lle. Konteradmiral
Konrad Böhmer, 9. varmistusdivisioonan komentaja, esitti kiitoksen suurenmoisesti
suoritetuista pelastustyöstä.
Altogether 8 pages text. I think this section is with >Drosselfang< connected?
The last three or four lines of this report are very interesting!
Whats your opinion?
Regards, Klaus

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#27

Post by Klaus F. » 21 Sep 2005, 23:16

Hello together,
many new details found out the forum.
Short hint to sinking of T 31. Again the combat-report T 31:
Torpedo-hit by approximate full-speed, one torpedo, not two, in the
middle of the ship, by 3,7-cm twin-gun/cannon. several torpedos had to be made way.
The Boat turns from one torpedo away, the next torpedo was to fast, to near – hit!
Point of view T 30 (also combat-report): One Russian MTB overtakes us with
high speed, very near. We can not fire on this MTB, the barrels from the
4 x 20-mm AA-Gun (Vierlings-Flak) can shoot not so deeply. Several
MTB’s overtakes both Flottentorpedoboote (T 30/T31) and try a torpedo-hit.
Everlasting gunfire from the MTB’s on T 30/T31. Ammunition to close (105-mm empty).
Smoke-screen from the MTB’s. At 00.03 o’clock torpedo-hit on T 31. MTB’s attacks again.
The Russian-MTB crews are very bold and intrepid, say Kapitänleutnant Buch,
Commander of T 30.

Hello RoW,
it’s possible to know what the destiny of the MTB-commanders
Bushuev and Toronenko was?
Regards, Klaus

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Juha Tompuri
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#28

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Sep 2005, 23:31

Hi Klaus,

Klaus F. wrote:Hello Juha,
I see this report in the Internet:
http://kotisivu.suomi.net/brantberg/Sot ... rhonen.htm
A new report or old?
Both.
It's a quote from a book Sotaupseetit (21 Finnish Wartime Officers) http://kotisivu.suomi.net/brantberg/Res ... nglish.htm
Vara-amiraali (Vice-Admiral) Jouko Pirhonen is one of the officers at that book. He and his biography at that book seems (as I haven't read it) to be largely based at the Laivat Puuta, Miehet Rautaa book. The lines you quoted are more or less direct from that book, and the same I translated to you.

Vuoden 1944 purjehduskausi alkoi toukokuussa. Venäläisten suurhyökkäys Kannaksella
alkoi kesäkuun 9. päivänä. Moottoritorpedoveneet partioivat ja laskivat pohjamiinoja
Kronstadtin lahdella asti.
The sailing season of 1944 started at May.The Soviet main offensive at Karelian Isthmus started at 9th of June. The MTB's (Finnish, JT) patrolled and laid (German)TMB (?) mines at the Kronstadt Bay.
Haavoittuneet saksalaiset vietiin sairaalalaivalle,
siviilissä Ruotsin pääkonsuli Hans von Rettigin huvialus Seagull II: lle. Konteradmiral
Konrad Böhmer, 9. varmistusdivisioonan komentaja, esitti kiitoksen suurenmoisesti
suoritetuista pelastustyöstä.
The wounded Germans were taken to the hospital ship, peace time yacht of Swedish consulate Seagull II.
Rear-Admiral Böhmer, the commander of the 9th Sicherungsdivision presented his thanks from the splendid conducted rescue operation

Regards, Juha

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#29

Post by RoW » 23 Sep 2005, 12:46

Klaus, Juha, thank you, very interesting details...

Little problems with time... I'll post what I found as soon as possible.

P.S.: Klaus, what damadge had T 30 during artillery skirmish? Were any shell hits?

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#30

Post by Klaus F. » 23 Sep 2005, 18:45

Hello Juha,
thanks for translate of the book-section. It was important because of Konteradmiral Böhmer
and his gratitude to the Finnish-navy for the rescue. I will look for a report in Freiburg/Archives.
Or have you sources, this report to concern?
Hello RoW,
Only by MTB-combat have T 30 damaged! Not before! T 30 was damaged through MTB-fire.
Many small-arm/automatic-gun (12,7-mm), perhaps 37-mm projectiles (?). Probable shells from
T 31 (10,5-cm). The artillery-fire both german boats was in a small area. Near together.
The “Flottentorpedoboot” was not heavy armoured.
Damage on T 30: 4x20-mm AA-Gun (astern) was destroyed, no shield/armor on this weapon,
1 man dead, 3 heavy wounded - flak-crew! Impacts in funnel, ship-build up, hull, - one oiltank/
fueltank leaky (It was already empty!)
Regards, Klaus

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