Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
Hello Klaus F., Juha, igorr,
I belongs to the generation, which learned Russian in the school and I did not regret it until today
The 2 maps below are from the following book:
the 1. map shows the battle near Narvi (?) and the sinking of "T 31"
the 2. map shows the Red Armada, which would conqueror the little desolate island Narvi in the night 19./20.06.1944
I havea question, know anybody, how strong was the armada? which concrete - with number - boats are involved?
It will me help a lot.
Thanks in advance
Regards
Mischa
PS - Juha, You said, the Estonian Volunteers. Do You mean the "Cellarius Group?"
I belongs to the generation, which learned Russian in the school and I did not regret it until today
The 2 maps below are from the following book:
the 1. map shows the battle near Narvi (?) and the sinking of "T 31"
the 2. map shows the Red Armada, which would conqueror the little desolate island Narvi in the night 19./20.06.1944
I havea question, know anybody, how strong was the armada? which concrete - with number - boats are involved?
It will me help a lot.
Thanks in advance
Regards
Mischa
PS - Juha, You said, the Estonian Volunteers. Do You mean the "Cellarius Group?"
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
First wave landing force consosted from 10 SKA (MO-type and D-3 type), and 7 cutters-minesweepers (KTSCH). In defend screen was 14 TKA in 4 groups. Troops - strengthened rifle company from 6 independent marine regiment. 3 guns (45-mm), 6 machineguns.
But first encounter german made with another force, - MO amd BMO west of Bierke/Torsaari.
I continue later.
PS. Sorry, but Your map is equally absolutely incorrect.
But first encounter german made with another force, - MO amd BMO west of Bierke/Torsaari.
I continue later.
PS. Sorry, but Your map is equally absolutely incorrect.
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
Hello igorr,
Thank You for You answer. I know, the maps are bad, but someone saw the things exactly so.
I know the German map too, and You have right, if You meen, the Flottentorpedoboote made a "8" ans they stood nearly Muurila.
Regards
Mischa
Thank You for You answer. I know, the maps are bad, but someone saw the things exactly so.
I know the German map too, and You have right, if You meen, the Flottentorpedoboote made a "8" ans they stood nearly Muurila.
Regards
Mischa
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
Ok, i must resume.
First contact was made with group of kap. I ranga Guskov (10 MO, 3 MBK), which go to Bierke to land reconnaissance team. Fight was short and soviet boats soon retreat under cover of smoke. Flagman MO-106 recieved 3 hits, MBK-503 and 505 - 1 each. Damage was not serious.
Then T-boote search from distance coast of Bierke and headed back. Then came second fight - with screen of Narvi landing force. Their boss, kap III ranga Osipov, who send one after another 2 group of TKA (TK-53, 63, 152 - kap-leit. Usch'ev) first, and second (TK-41, 101, 103, 111) - later, when splashes of very first fighting was seen. Both groups attacking altmost simultaneously. Germans think, there was 15 TKA! But attack ended without result for both sides. TK-63, 101 and 103 recieved hits, but damages was light, except TK-63, which after 40 min was dead on water. Boat was towed to Seskar and after 2 days was again battleready.
T-boote then go NW, but there was no 3 MS-Flotille, as expected. There was only one way back - on old course, near Narvi. T-boote go there and met wuth another 2 groups of Osipov's force - more 7 TKA. This time, ulike first straight strike, one group divided in two and attacks with outflanking. This group recieved hit on T-31. There was 2 candidate: TK-37 (st. leit. Tronenko) and TK-60 (leit. Bushuev, with group commander, kap. III ranga Tichonov on board). For some reason i think, that hit was from TK-37.
I make very simple scheme of operation, just to image, how T-boote go.
First contact was made with group of kap. I ranga Guskov (10 MO, 3 MBK), which go to Bierke to land reconnaissance team. Fight was short and soviet boats soon retreat under cover of smoke. Flagman MO-106 recieved 3 hits, MBK-503 and 505 - 1 each. Damage was not serious.
Then T-boote search from distance coast of Bierke and headed back. Then came second fight - with screen of Narvi landing force. Their boss, kap III ranga Osipov, who send one after another 2 group of TKA (TK-53, 63, 152 - kap-leit. Usch'ev) first, and second (TK-41, 101, 103, 111) - later, when splashes of very first fighting was seen. Both groups attacking altmost simultaneously. Germans think, there was 15 TKA! But attack ended without result for both sides. TK-63, 101 and 103 recieved hits, but damages was light, except TK-63, which after 40 min was dead on water. Boat was towed to Seskar and after 2 days was again battleready.
T-boote then go NW, but there was no 3 MS-Flotille, as expected. There was only one way back - on old course, near Narvi. T-boote go there and met wuth another 2 groups of Osipov's force - more 7 TKA. This time, ulike first straight strike, one group divided in two and attacks with outflanking. This group recieved hit on T-31. There was 2 candidate: TK-37 (st. leit. Tronenko) and TK-60 (leit. Bushuev, with group commander, kap. III ranga Tichonov on board). For some reason i think, that hit was from TK-37.
I make very simple scheme of operation, just to image, how T-boote go.
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
Hello igorr,
thank You verey, very much!
How I can revenge You? Have You any ideas?
Regards
Mischa
thank You verey, very much!
How I can revenge You? Have You any ideas?
Regards
Mischa
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
I was glad to help You, but i have no idea about Your "revenge".
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
Hello Igorr,
are these original-documents of the Military-Archives Freiburg(Germany)?
The map is with file-number RM 45 Ost/6 K-5 ?
Greetings
Klaus F.
are these original-documents of the Military-Archives Freiburg(Germany)?
The map is with file-number RM 45 Ost/6 K-5 ?
Greetings
Klaus F.
- Juha Tompuri
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Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
Thank you igorr for the drawing.
Reagrds, Juha
Absolutely incorrectness I do agree, but "equally"?igorr wrote: Sorry, but Your map is equally absolutely incorrect.
Do you know is the Morozov article availlable anywhere online?igorr wrote:Miroslav Morozov wrote article about T.31 sinking with cross-searchung in original documents - soviet and german.
Reagrds, Juha
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
Hello all!
2 Klaus F.:
You absolutely right. RM 45 Ost/6 K-5 - map. I can't find numbers of two german accounts about fight, but it is Anlage 1 and 2, and map is anlage 3 to same KTB.
2 Juha:
May be i not so good in english - so please forgive me, if i write something bad-looking.
As far as i know, there is no Morozov's article, or whole book (see my post Yesterday, 11:58) in internet.
2 Klaus F.:
You absolutely right. RM 45 Ost/6 K-5 - map. I can't find numbers of two german accounts about fight, but it is Anlage 1 and 2, and map is anlage 3 to same KTB.
2 Juha:
May be i not so good in english - so please forgive me, if i write something bad-looking.
As far as i know, there is no Morozov's article, or whole book (see my post Yesterday, 11:58) in internet.
- Juha Tompuri
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Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
No that big thing, just when comparing the maps presented here, I don't find their (in)correctness equal.igorr wrote:May be i not so good in english - so please forgive me, if i write something bad-looking.
The Estonian origin does seem to contain some mistakes, but is not absolutely incorrect.
What a pity.igorr wrote:As far as i know, there is no Morozov's article, or whole book (see my post Yesterday, 11:58) in internet.
Anyway, many thanks for your help here again.
Regards, Juha
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
Hello igorr,igorr wrote:As far as i know, there is no Morozov's article, or whole book (see my post Yesterday, 11:58) in internet.
could You kindly tell us, where we can find, see and read Mr. Morozow`s article? In which Russian periodical was the skirmish from the 19./20.06.1944 described?
Regards
Mischa
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
I posted link above (http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/4257487/), but may be wrote unclear. "Article" - is part of russian book about T-boote, written by Patyanin and Morozov, named "Kriegsmarine's black lightnings". Please disregard this pathetic title, it's side effect of publishers politic.
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
Hello igorr,
Thank You very, very much again! Now, it is all comprehensible. My English is very poor (I learned it much more than 30 years ago in the school), so I must ask once again and again. Wer fragt, der irrt nicht!
I will not criticise the title, but I mean, when we write something about Kriegsmarine`s destroyers and torpedo-boats, that tiltle is absolutly wrong, because "Black lightnings" (German = "Schwarze Gesellen, and it means "Black Boys") were called the crews of this boats in the time to 1918, because the ships and boats were black (only the first torpedoboats of the Reichsmarine, "Raubvogel - and "Raubtier-class", were painted until middle of the 30.? black!), so I mean the political publishers would be much wise than the autors...
Regards
Mischa
Thank You very, very much again! Now, it is all comprehensible. My English is very poor (I learned it much more than 30 years ago in the school), so I must ask once again and again. Wer fragt, der irrt nicht!
I will not criticise the title, but I mean, when we write something about Kriegsmarine`s destroyers and torpedo-boats, that tiltle is absolutly wrong, because "Black lightnings" (German = "Schwarze Gesellen, and it means "Black Boys") were called the crews of this boats in the time to 1918, because the ships and boats were black (only the first torpedoboats of the Reichsmarine, "Raubvogel - and "Raubtier-class", were painted until middle of the 30.? black!), so I mean the political publishers would be much wise than the autors...
Regards
Mischa
Re: Baltic Sea, 19./20. June 1944 Operation Drosselfang
Hello Mischa!
In my view, your english is good enough... I've not learned them at all, and in school i was learn german. 20 years ago.
OK, speaking about title, i mean, that it is little unfit - too pompous for this modest ships. I think, publishers absolutely unaware about german torpedobooter's nickname. By the way, lightning=blitz, thus direct assotiation not worked.
In my view, your english is good enough... I've not learned them at all, and in school i was learn german. 20 years ago.
OK, speaking about title, i mean, that it is little unfit - too pompous for this modest ships. I think, publishers absolutely unaware about german torpedobooter's nickname. By the way, lightning=blitz, thus direct assotiation not worked.
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