Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

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Adam Carr
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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#16

Post by Adam Carr » 24 May 2014, 15:25

I don't think Hindu and Buddhist countries can be expected to have the same level of awareness of the symbolism of the swastika as European countries. It wasn't their war after all. But Finland is a European country, which took part in the war (on Hitler's side), and it should know perfectly well how offensive this symbol is.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#17

Post by Juha Tompuri » 24 May 2014, 21:50

Adam Carr wrote:Finnish war memorial - with swastika!
Adam Carr wrote:The crosses such as the one I originally posted about are tolerable.
The Honourable Finnish Swastika:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/art ... _swastika/

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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#18

Post by Adam Carr » 25 May 2014, 00:06

As I said, I don't care about the origins or history of the Finnish swastika. The symbol is offensive, particularly in the form it is used on the Air Force banner - offensive to the rest of Europe, offensive to Jews, offensive to anyone who has knowledge of the Nazi regime. Finland should accept this and stop using it.

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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#19

Post by Juha Tompuri » 25 May 2014, 00:46

I think our point here is that the German misuse of that symbol does not tarnish our traditions.

BTW should this symbol be also banned?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Sun_Flag


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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#20

Post by Adam Carr » 25 May 2014, 01:30

Yes it does.

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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#21

Post by Juha Tompuri » 25 May 2014, 01:53

Adam Carr wrote:Yes it does.
This...
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... and the others from the end of the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Sun_Flag too?

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Adam Carr
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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#22

Post by Adam Carr » 25 May 2014, 08:55

Argument by weak analogy is always unimpressive. There is no symbol with the same offensive power as swastika.

Why don't you address the central point, which is that Finland ought to have sufficient awareness not to use a symbol which (a) is grossly offensive and (b) draws attention to Finland's role as an ally of Hitler?

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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#23

Post by Mikko H. » 25 May 2014, 09:49

Why don't you address the central point, which is that Finland ought to have sufficient awareness not to use a symbol which (a) is grossly offensive and (b) draws attention to Finland's role as an ally of Hitler?
If the modern-day Finnish swastika is indeed grossly offensive (and IMO that's very much an if), then I guess things might change.

Originally the collar of the Grand Cross of the Order of the White Rose with Collar was decorated with swastikas. When this decoration was awarded to Charles de Gaulle on a state visit in the 1960s, President of Finland Urho Kekkonen noted how de Gaulle carefully placed the swastikas under his coat collar to hide them from view. Once he returned to home, Kekkonen gave the order to replace the swastikas in the decoration with pine needle clusters. Ironically, the same decoration had earlier been awarded to Soviet leaders and they had no such problems!

My point here is that were the Finnish use of swastika to draw strongly negative foreign attention, it might be replaced. So far it really hasn't. And as long as the Finnish version of swastika remains for the great majority of Finns a symbol of Finnish nationalism, and they draw a clear distinction between it and the Nazi swastika, things are unlikely to change.

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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#24

Post by John Hilly » 25 May 2014, 15:14

Mikko H. wrote: And as long as the Finnish version of swastika remains for the great majority of Finns a symbol of Finnish nationalism, and they draw a clear distinction between it and the Nazi swastika, things are unlikely to change.
I'd prefer using word patriotism, not nationalism, considering Finnish thinking and ideals.

With best,
J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#25

Post by Juha Tompuri » 25 May 2014, 22:25

Adam Carr wrote:Argument by weak analogy is always unimpressive. There is no symbol with the same offensive power as swastika.
Seems to have both, offensive and very positive.
Depending on the culture and period of time.
Adam Carr wrote:Why don't you address the central point, which is that Finland ought to have sufficient awareness not to use a symbol which (a) is grossly offensive and (b) draws attention to Finland's role as an ally of Hitler?
As being part of our culture, we understand the things a bit different than those who have quite recently became allergic about it.
Mikko H. wrote: Ironically, the same decoration had earlier been awarded to Soviet leaders and they had no such problems!
Soviet President Voroshilov visiting Finland 1956:
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http://agricola.utu.fi/keskustelu/viewtopic.php?t=4757

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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#26

Post by Mikko H. » 25 May 2014, 22:36

War graves at the Jyväskylä Old Cemetery. Picture taken on Christmas Eve 2012: note the honor guard with snow suits and Suomi SMGs.
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War graves at the Jyväskylä Old Cemetery

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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#27

Post by Juha Tompuri » 25 May 2014, 23:26

Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 26 May 2014, 09:22, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: adding info

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Karelia
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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#28

Post by Karelia » 26 May 2014, 18:29

Adam Carr wrote:1. Your "star"analogy is very feeble. You "hammer and sickle" analogy is also weak. I don't see the armed forces of any democratic country parading around with hammer and sickle flags.
2. The symbol on the Air Force banner is not a "cross of freedom," it is a swastika of the same design as the one used by the Nazi Party and the Third Reich.
3. I don't care what the history of the symbol in Finland is. The swastika is the symbol of Nazism and the Nazi state, and democratic states should not use it.
1. That's only your opinion. Obviously I disagree totally.

Maybe not hammer and sicle in the flag, but otherwise it can often be seen, without protests.

2. No, those are two different things. The Air Force banner is not the same as the Nazies', since it's black only because that Air Force flag is blue. Otherwise it would be blue. Also the context is totally different than the Nazies'.

3. See answer nr. 1.

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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#29

Post by Karelia » 26 May 2014, 18:38

Adam Carr wrote:I don't think Hindu and Buddhist countries can be expected to have the same level of awareness of the symbolism of the swastika as European countries. It wasn't their war after all. But Finland is a European country, which took part in the war (on Hitler's side), and it should know perfectly well how offensive this symbol is.
Very feeble excuses, I would say.

Finland was on Finland's side, fighting the Finnish war(s) against the same invading enemy which the other democratic countries expelled from the League of Nations just a year earlier because of her earlier attack against Finland. Since those other European countries were unable/unwilling to help us against that murderous, aggressive dictatorship 50 x bigger than Finland we had to look for any/only help possible/available.

We know perfectly well, what the Finnish symbols stand for, thank you very much. They stand for Finnish Liberty and Independence.
We can't and won't be responsible for other people's ignorance and/or hypocrisy.
Last edited by Karelia on 27 May 2014, 13:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Finnish war memorial - with swastika!

#30

Post by Karelia » 26 May 2014, 18:40

Adam Carr wrote:As I said, I don't care about the origins or history of the Finnish swastika. The symbol is offensive, particularly in the form it is used on the Air Force banner - offensive to the rest of Europe, offensive to Jews, offensive to anyone who has knowledge of the Nazi regime. Finland should accept this and stop using it.
Seems like it is offensive mainly to you...

The Finnish Jews have not protested against the usage of the Finnish symbols. And why should they, since they too fought under the very same symbols just like other Finnish soldiers.

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