Ronald Reagan at Bitburg

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Erich
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#16

Post by Erich » 06 Jul 2002, 04:33

Well I have to agree as well as I plan on visiting two or more of my relatives gravesites in Germany this autumn............

E

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Marcus
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#17

Post by Marcus » 06 Jul 2002, 09:41

Thanks for the info about the Bitburg visit.

/Marcus


tonyh
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#18

Post by tonyh » 08 Jul 2002, 00:16

Probably the best thing Ragan ever did.

Tony

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harry palmer
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#19

Post by harry palmer » 08 Jul 2002, 12:49

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... story.html


"Most Americans had never heard of the SS, an abbreviation for Schutzstaffel, an elite unit of German soldiers, until May 1985 when President Ronald Reagan outraged the Jewish Community and created a huge controversy when he decided to bypass an invitation to tour the concentration camp at Dachau on a state visit to Germany and instead opted to visit a military cemetery in Bitberg, where German SS soldiers were buried. In defense of his visit, Reagan said, "There's nothing wrong with visiting that cemetery where those young men are victims of Nazis also...They were victims, just as surely as the victims of the concentration camps." Reagan had gotten his start in politics when he worked with the Screen Actor's Guild to expose Communists in the movie industry in the McCarthy era. The Schutzstaffel (Protection Squad) was started in April 1925 as a unit of personal body guards for Adolf Hitler who needed protection from the Communist protesters who tried to disrupt his political speeches for his Fascist party, the National Socialist German Workers Party, better known to Americans as the Nazis.

The occasion for Reagan's visit was the 40ieth anniversary of the end of World War II and he wanted to forget the Holocaust and show that Germany was now our Ally and a member of NATO. His purpose in visiting the graves of these German SS soldiers was to "demonstrate reconciliation and friendship" with the country that had murdered 6 million Jews. However, the soldiers that he was honoring at Bitberg were not the guards at the concentration camps, the infamous Death's Head unit, which was only one part of the SS; Reagan was paying tribute to the soldiers of the Waffen-SS (Weapons SS), an elite fighting unit which included volunteers from many countries who fought the Communists in Hitler's war against the Soviet Union, something that Reagan could certainly relate to."

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USAF1986
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#20

Post by USAF1986 » 09 Jul 2002, 02:36

Who remembers this one? In 1986, the Ramones released their "Animal Boy" album with the song "Bonzo Goes to Bitburg"...a biting jab at Reagan's visit to the cemetery.

Regards,
Shawn

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Lawrence Tandy
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#21

Post by Lawrence Tandy » 10 Jul 2002, 05:29

I have that on cd. Good band :D

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Kurt_Steiner
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Bittburg and so on

#22

Post by Kurt_Steiner » 05 Mar 2004, 19:30

I think that the whole issue of Bittburg is caused, from my point of view, by a misunderstading. The people buried at Bittburg where members of the Waffen-SS. There is a common mistake that identifies the Waffen-SS with the SS. Let me use someone's else words:

"[As we all now], the Waffen-SS were the product of Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist system. One cannot deny this fact. On the other hand, they were more than simply an extension of Hitler's will. The premier Waffen-SS units, among them the Leibstandarte, could rightly claim that they were genuine elite military units; moreover, the feats on the field of battle performed by some of those who served wearing the Waffen-SS runes can justifiably be placed alongside and in many cases above their colleagues in both the regular Army and the equally dedicated and fearless soldiers who fought in Allied colours.

"Thus we had the problem of the lack of differentiation, which was created by the Nürnberg indictment. As the Waffen-SS was treated no differently to the SD butchers and the Gestapo by the Tribunal, it logically followed that they would be seen by the majority of the public at large as being no different. In that it was completely unjustifiable to even attempt to defend the activities of the SD or the Gestapo, it thus followed that the Waffen-SS, and anyone who aimed to present an objective view regarding their role, would similarly receive a short shrift.

"The fact remains that due to the highly controversial and sensitive nature of the subject, the vast majority of sentiments expressed with regard to it are subjective, and which on the whole tend to be based on both an emotional reaction (in many cases justified) towards the clearly repellent nature of the Nazi régime itself, as well as, on the other hand, a pre-programmed bias which is the product of fifty years of, dare I say it, propaganda and indoctrination. Although the producers of such material may have set out with good intentions, in that we should not forget the past, a sentiment that I myself am completely in agreement with, it has assisted in the creation of some popular generalisations and misconceptions.

"Both the Nürnberg and Tokyo Tribunals were allegedly designed to set new standards in International Law; this has not proved to be the case. While the Germans and Japanese were charged with waging an "aggressive war", and "crimes against humanity", numerous nations since the war have acted in a similar fashion, sometimes in full view of the rest of the world, and have got away with it. In itself, the term "aggressive war" is ambiguous, if not pernicious; no winning side would ever charge itself with such an offence. What one sees as being "aggression" and "crimes against humanity" is purely subjective and even ideological; for instance, while the bombing of Guernica during the Spanish Civil War and Blitz of 1940 were propagandised as being typical of criminal Nazi terror tactics, the fire-bombing of Dresden and the dropping of Atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki are seen as "strategic moves which helped to bring a swifter end to the war".

"The furious debate over the infamous Bitburg Affair was the product of such popular misconceptions. The incident concerned the planned visit of former United States president Ronald Reagan, as part of the fortieth anniversary of VE-day commemoration in 1985, to the war cemetery in the North-western town of Bitburg. The invitation had been officially extended to Reagan by Helmut Kohl, Chancellor of what was then West Germany. Little did Chancellor Kohl's officials know that in extending this invitation they were opening Pandora's box; as soon as official news of the invitation came out, there was a furious response from many quarters, especially in the United States. Reagan was urged to refuse to visit the cemetery. The reaction concerned the presence of the graves of forty-nine young Waffen-SS soldiers at the cemetery. Although it could be argued that the motives behind the reaction were clearly justified, it was also clear that they were seriously misplaced and clearly out of context. Charles S. Maier writes: The visit was intended as a ritual of reconciliation; it ended as catharsis manqué".

"Bitburg created two debates, the first being the sensitive issue of German war guilt, and the second, that of the role of the Waffen-SS. The reaction to Bitburg, what can be called the "Bitburg Mentality", could best be summed up by examining the paranoid rantings of the Jewish Sociologist-Historian Jill Seidel: "Members of Hitler's elite troops, most of them very young, had been buried alongside their victims. This amounted to a diplomatic gaffe with very particular resonances. It was a momentous affront to the victims of Nazi oppression..."

"Despite the vociferous reaction from the likes of Seidel and a number of - for the most part Jewish - organisations, Reagan decided to go ahead with the visit. Of this, Seidel said: "The decision was an act of 'moral blindness'. Reagan's 'historic mistake' in visiting the Bitburg was cemetery was 'to equate murderers with their victims". Firstly, Gill Seidel's concoction of emotional quotations is grossly inaccurate. In reality, the Waffen-SS men buried at Bitburg were not "murderers" at all but, as Seidel herself admits, young troops. They were just as much victims of the war (although clearly not in the same way) as the many civilians whose graves were also at Bitburg. The connections made with the Holocaust by writers such as Seidel were clearly out of context. It was not as though Herr Kohl had invited Reagan to visit the Führerbunker or something like that. The Waffen-SS men buried at Bitburg were soldiers who had fallen in battle, who had nothing to do with the other sections of the SS who were responsible for the Holocaust:"The Bitburg dead are Waffen SS whose widows, for example, would be entitled to state pensions whereas other SS widows would not".

"The fact is that the indisputable truth and the enormity of the Holocaust has been often unfairly used to divert attention away from debate over other aspects of the war and more so away from an objective account of the role played by the Waffen-SS. The debate of whether or not the Waffen-SS should be recognised as a legitimate military organisation has positively nothing to do with defaming the Holocaust or its survivors. In the words of Kurt Meyer, former Panzer commander and spokesman for the HIAG:

"In the interests of historical truth nothing must be glossed over. Things happened during the war that are unworthy of the German nation. The former soldiers of the Waffen-SS are men enough to recognize and deplore actual cases of inhuman behaviour. It would be foolish to label all the charges laid at our doorstep as the propaganda of our former enemies. Of course they made propaganda out of it... But crimes were committed. It is useless to argue about the toll of victims- the facts are burdensome enough".

"Such is the sensitive nature of this debate, which some may even consider to be offensive. It would, however, in my humble opinion, constitute a monumental foolishness to place oneself on the fence for fear of causing potential offence. Having said this, it is clearly not my aim to offend. The fact is that there needs to be an objective reappraisal of the role of the Waffen-SS during the Second World War, as well as how they, as the first real organised military élite, set the standards for many of today's élite and special forces. In the words of Bruce Quarrie, "To many people, even today, no Waffen-SS accomplishment can be classed as 'good', but this is a biased emotional reaction which denies the Waffen-SS the same military recognition awarded to, say, the Israeli Defence Forces, or even the British troops involved in the Falklands operations. It is also a reaction which denies the effect many aspects of Waffen-SS training and uniform have had on all post-war armies..."

"The Waffen-SS was a proven fighting unit in its own right, but that they were harshly and wrongfully treated in being lumped together with death camp personnel and the infamous Einsatzgruppen, not only by many historians, but also by their fellow Germans. The post-war legacy of the Waffen-SS, and their current position place in modern contemporary and military history, is demeaning to the vast majority of the soldiers who fought and died in the colours of the Waffen-SS.

"This lines are not as a whitewash of the Waffen-SS - as some will accuse me of attempting - but an attempt at exposing what was unfair judicial decision, a decision that had been based on what can only be described as a sweeping generalisation. The Waffen-SS were neither knights in shining armour or black-hearted brutes bent on the extermination of all that stood against it, but simply a band of fighting men whose background and role have been seriously misunderstood. "

This information has been taken from: ttp://www.panzerace.net/main/tarnished.asp?ch ... troduction

ChristopherPerrien
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#23

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 06 Mar 2004, 01:13

Nothing like resurrecting the dead,

Anway he did not lay any wreaths at SS graves , in fact I believe there were only 4 or 5 SS men buried there off in some far-off corner of the cemetary.

So a big case can be made made that it was a certain special interest at that time aligned with the Liberal Democrats with a major influence in the media , that blew the whole thing way out of proportion.

Nowadays you won't see that again in mainstream press though, since these interests have switched camps over to being republican neocons.
Funny how old Bush Family business actions(i.e. sanctioned for business with NAZI Germany) have not lead to George Sr. or Jr being dragged though the mud.

Which all makes me wonder :lol: what is more important to some people? Money(a.k.a.power) or principles?

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#24

Post by Lobscouse » 06 Mar 2004, 04:54

At the time I was thought the discovery of a few SS graves was the perfect excuse for oponents to use, in attempting to get President Raegan to cancel his visit.

They just did not seem to want any cemetary visits.

FastFreddy
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Re: Ronald Reagan at Bitburg

#25

Post by FastFreddy » 02 Sep 2011, 19:30

Well I was 100% for the cemetary visit! I even remember getting up early to watch the moving ceremony too.

I saw it as a moving gesture of peace and friendship with Germany and its people!

Reagan was totaly right and I'm damn glad he went through with the visit!

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askropp
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Re: Ronald Reagan at Bitburg

#26

Post by askropp » 19 Oct 2013, 21:33

I believe there were only 4 or 5 SS men buried there in some far-off corner of the cemetery.
Not quite. There are buried:

SS-Sturmmann (?) Walfried Althaus, 24
SS-Rottenführer Armin Arnold, 20
SS-Oberscharführer Otto Bengel, 21
SS-Rottenführer Max Böttcher, 35
SS-Rottenführer Wolfgang Bonsdorf, 21
SS-Oberscharführer Gustav Borcherding, 32
SS-Rottenführer Siegfried Burschinski, 20
SS-Grenadier Koloman Chrenko, 24
SS-Rottenführer Johann Clauß, 22
SS-Oberscharführer Anton Degele, 24
SS-Grenadier Bonifas Dolinsky, 29
SS-Grenadier Werner Eschert, 17
SS-Sturmmann Anton Fischer, 18
SS-Rottenführer Walter Frassek, 23
SS-Grenadier Josef Gaul, 17
SS-Sturmmann Emil Herbergs, 19
SS-Sturmmann Walter Hones, 39
SS-Grenadier Emil Jakubetz, 18
SS-Sturmmann Michael Janecek, 19
SS-Rottenführer Ernst Kahl, 20
SS-Oberscharführer Karl Koch, 37
SS-Hauptscharführer (?) August Kuchar, 44
SS-Unterscharführer Franz Kuckelkorn, 32
SS-Grenadier Josef Lachermeier, 17
SS-Grenadier Rudolf Lindner, ?
SS-Grenadier Karl Maier, 18
SS-Grenadier Peter Meid, 18
SS-Rottenführer Alfred Müller, 22
SS-Unterscharführer Heinrich Müller, 26
SS-Rotternführer Gerhard Sap, 25
SS-Untersturmführer August Schellner, 23
SS-Grenadier Siegfried Schiller, 18
SS-Grenadier (?) Rudolf Schmidt, 19
SS-Grenadier Eugen Schuler, 31
SS-Grenadier Fritz Schweinberger, 17
SS-Grenadier Friedrich Speck, 18
SS-Hauptscharführer Willi Stelter, 24
SS-Sturmmann Emil Ströher, 19
SS-Sturmmann Alois Strzalka, 19
SS-Sturmmann Thomas Thal, 38
SS-Hauptscharführer Marinus Werner, 32
SS-Sturmmann Josef Wolf, 17
SS-Grenadier Georg Zaske, 17

It is also no special corner, they are strewn all over the field between the Wehrmacht soldiers.
Also, it should be remembered that the real point at issue wasn't whether Ronald Reagan should come to Bitburg, but whether Helmut Kohl should come to Bitburg.
There are times in history when staying neutral means taking sides.

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Re: Ronald Reagan at Bitburg

#27

Post by Heinrich George » 30 Oct 2013, 22:27

askropp wrote: Also, it should be remembered that the real point at issue wasn't whether Ronald Reagan should come to Bitburg, but whether Helmut Kohl should come to Bitburg.
I'm sure that was true in Germany, but the focus in America was on Reagan. He had been re-elected in a landslide the previous November and was at the peak of his popularity. Most of the media weren't very fond of him and seized on this controversy with enthusiasm. Things quickly became ugly as Reagan found himself in a no-win situation, much to the delight of his critics.

One of those leading the charge was William L. Shirer, who devoted most of a chapter to the topic in the final volume of his memoirs, A Native's Return. Shirer, who happened to be in Germany at the time, relates that he obtained the military records of the SS men over 30 and established that one of them had been a guard at Dachau and that the others were "veteran Nazis." He goes on at considerable length, chastising Reagan and Kohl, and concludes the chapter with a quote from Goethe about the German people being "so estimable in the individual and so wretched in the generality." At one point he even says he left Germany in the spring of 1985 feeling worse than he did when he departed in December 1940.

One thing I recall from that time, though I can't recall where I read or heard it, was that for many years before Reagan's trip the commanding officer of the nearby USAF base had laid a wreath at the cemetery. So in one sense, Reagan was following an established precedent when he joined Kohl in the ceremony..

Thanks for posting the list. I hadn't seen it before.

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Re:

#28

Post by FastFreddy » 21 May 2014, 20:02

Oswald Mosley wrote:Quite right, Meech. I applaud your honourable attitude.
I applaud it too! :thumbsup:

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Re: Ronald Reagan at Bitburg

#29

Post by TedjeX » 31 Aug 2015, 22:10

TNX for the list,are you sure that they are not together on the field?Why are they not mentioned at the site of the Deutsche Volksbund?In the name registers?
I read that the field has been restored?

Kind regards,
T.


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